Fiachsidhe Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) People who say "hurr pay attention and you'll know everything!" are basically painting "I don't know what the hell I'm talking about" on their forehead. Neither Bioware nor anyone with a clue believes this nonsense, stop parroting it. and yet I (and millions of other people all over the world) been able to play mmorpg's for over a decade just fine without one, by, you know, paying-the ****-attention. People who say "hurr u dun no what u tawkin bout" are basically painting "I couldn't produce a valid argument, even if I was armed with magic, and an electric argument machine." on their own foreheads. I've played over 20 mmorpg's and only in two or three have seen players crying that they can't have a machine tell them who to scapegoat their recent loses onto. don't tell me what Bioware agrees with. I'm not talking to Bioware. Stop pretending anyone who disagrees hasn't got a clue, because you're the last person to call someone out on lack of such. Your only counter argument, was a lazy appeal to authority fallacy. If you need a damage meter to figure out who went AFK during a raid, you're a terrible raid leader. Edited December 23, 2011 by Fiachsidhe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) and yet I (and millions of other people all over the world) been able to play mmorpg's for over a decade just fine without one, by, you know, paying-the ****-attention. People who say "hurr u dun no what u tawkin bout" are basically painting "I couldn't produce a valid argument, even if I was armed with magic, and an electric argument machine." on their own foreheads. I've played over 20 mmorpg's and only in two or three have seen players crying that they can't have a machine tell them who to scapegoat their recent loses onto. don't tell me what Bioware agrees with. I'm not talking to Bioware. Stop pretending anyone who disagrees hasn't got a clue, because you're the last person to call someone out on lack of such. If you need a damage meter to figure out who went AFK during a raid, you're a terrible raid leader. You have played 0 mmos at a competitive level. Your input is irrelevant to the subject at hand. Noone was talking about actual AFK-ing, it was an exageration to prove a point. AFK or spamming normal attack would pretty much net the same result, close to 0 dps. Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigoldbear Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 damage meters are a tool for mmo bullies to throw their weight around, masquerading in their 'hardcore competitive mmo-player' guise like it really means they own a pair. I've clashed with a few on various games and they are cosnsitent in only one thing: all mouth and no trousers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I hope they never in any way, shape or form, allow the damage to be delivered to mods on the front end. Damage meters were one of the worst things that ever happened to WoW. It put everything under a microscope and removed the "working together" aspect of the game. Everything became someone else's fault. If someone is grossly underperforming you don't need damage meters to tell you. If a boss dies, who cares what 1st DPS was! The group wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 they are cosnsitent in only one thing: all mouth and no trousers. God I haven't heard that since I left the UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiachsidhe Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) You have played 0 mmos at a competitive level. Your input is irrelevant to the subject at hand. Noone was talking about actual AFK-ing, it was an exageration to prove a point. AFK or spamming normal attack would pretty much net the same result, close to 0 dps. If you need to make an imaginary claim to reduce your opponent's argument to a non-factor, based on an arbitrary criteria, you've just proven how utterly incapable you are, of continuing intelligent discourse and have rendered all arguments on your end "invalid". Edited December 23, 2011 by Fiachsidhe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
commandkill Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Its great not being around with normal flashpoints and world heroics but when we get to the raids I would like it around. Im not sure why its not to boost ego just seems like it would be useful in that situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) and yet I (and millions of other people all over the world) been able to play mmorpg's for over a decade just fine without one, by, you know, paying-the ****-attention. People who say "hurr u dun no what u tawkin bout" are basically painting "I couldn't produce a valid argument, even if I was armed with magic, and an electric argument machine." on their own foreheads. I've played over 20 mmorpg's and only in two or three have seen players crying that they can't have a machine tell them who to scapegoat their recent loses onto. don't tell me what Bioware agrees with. I'm not talking to Bioware. Stop pretending anyone who disagrees hasn't got a clue, because you're the last person to call someone out on lack of such. Sorry buddy, you better be prepared for disappointment. They already said the reason there isn't a combat log in game is because they can't let you export it or otherwise parse it. They said they want to give people that option. I'm not going to go hunting for quotes, if you're so interested you can find it yourself. I'm sure "don't tell me what Bioware agrees with" is a response to knowledge that the company who makes this game, and is therefore the only opinion that truly matters at the end of the day, thinks your argument and arguments like it are full of more holes than swiss cheese. But lets get back to this for a second, how you can magically know how people are doing without anything indicating it. Tell me how. See, right now, all you can say is "But I did it in other MMOs, see!?" and "I have plenty of experience without damage meters, therefore it's better!" Tell me how I'm supposed to prove I didn't stand in the lava. Tell me how I'm supposed to see out of 5-6 people who is doing the damage that leads to enrage, assuming they're all active and using abilities regularly. Tell me how Im supposed to prove that DPS player X wasn't attacking the target he was supposed to. Tell me how I'm supposed to prove that the tank took too much damage at once, and that it wasn't a lack of healing. Tell me how I'm supposed to see who did and didn't dispel the bad stuff that will kill everyone. Tell me how I'm supposed to see who was getting the interrupts. Now, tell me how I'm supposed to do ALL OF THAT AT ONCE, while playing my character (which should be complex enough on its own without those aspects that I enjoy it) effectively. Better yet, tell me how I'm supposed to quantify all of that. Seriously, I'm getting to the point where I'm done with these forums. I couldn't be so clueless without trying, especially considering the legions of people lining up to explain to you (repeatedly and with valid, unanswered points) why you're not understanding. But it isn't about logic. It's about some gut reaction because some guy kicked someone out of a group over it, and whether it was justified or not people will kick and scream and cry about how people used OBJECTIVELY FACTUAL INFORMATION to explain why they can no longer be in the group. So I'm sure you'll have some terrible response, and if your previous comment is any indicator you'll lack the creativity to do it in any other way but by saying the same thing I have. I don't care anymore, because some people won't be sated unless people can't see how truly, truly terrible they are no matter how hard they try. Edited December 23, 2011 by Excedrin Changed subject in some sentences to make more sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baizak Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 What would be nice is if Bioware would give a definitive answer on this subject one way or the other. The debate is so old and boring now. The two sides argue as if they are lawyers representing Prosecutor and Defense in a courtroom and Bioware is the presiding judge. Make a ruling and swing the gavel already BW! I have yet to read anywhere that the game will or will no ever allow mods, macros, etc... If somebody can point me to a source that I missed, I would love to read it. If they have not said that they do not plan to add them, then I would expect them as an inevitable inclusion to a patch somewhere down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) What would be nice is if Bioware would give a definitive answer on this subject one way or the other. The debate is so old and boring now. The two sides argue as if they are lawyers representing Prosecutor and Defense in a courtroom and Bioware is the presiding judge. Make a ruling and swing the gavel already BW! I have yet to read anywhere that the game will or will no ever allow mods, macros, etc... If somebody can point me to a source that I missed, I would love to read it. If they have not said that they do not plan to add them, then I would expect them as an inevitable inclusion to a patch somewhere down the line. From GZ, since people really seem to not know this. Interviewer: So we talk about analytics and what you guys do on the developer side. Players like to do their own analytics and how to improve their characters. What tools int he game help you do that? Will you be able to export a combat log or anything like that? Georg Zoeller: Not at this point, but it's something very high on our priority list Interviewer: What's the pro and con of having something like that in? What's your approach to players min-maxing? Georg Zoeller: I have no problem with players min-maxing. I'm min-maxing myself. We do have pretty good... the tooltips are pretty good. The information on the items I think is pretty good. We're right now lacking a bit is in the evaluating your performance or your group's performance. Umm what I can tell you is there's no conspiracy where we're like we're hiding this so people aren't discriminating against other players. If you want to, you know, run a very competitive operations group and you wanna improve, having this data is certainly interesting. Umm and we're not against it, it's just right now not in. Will it make it in for launch? We don't know at this point but it's very high priority. Bolded parts emphasize a mentality that is opposed to that of those who want no parsing. EDIT: Forgot to source it. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/698619/Misc/SWTOR/fan_sum_02_qa_georg_zoeller.mp3 This is from a post on this website, by the way. Didn't have to search far. Edited December 23, 2011 by Excedrin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiragrim Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 You have played 0 mmos at a competitive level. Your input is irrelevant to the subject at hand. Noone was talking about actual AFK-ing, it was an exageration to prove a point. AFK or spamming normal attack would pretty much net the same result, close to 0 dps. Um... Wait wait... everyone! Stop the bus!!! "MMOs at a competitive level"?!?!?!?! What the HECK are you talking about?! Did someone schedule a SWTOR tournament *ALREADY*?! Otherwise you are just competing with yourself. Like... "How much dumber can I be than I was yesterday?" JEEZ! MMOs are games. Life is a competition. Please don't mix the two any more then they have to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 What would be nice is if Bioware would give a definitive answer on this subject one way or the other. The debate is so old and boring now. The two sides argue as if they are lawyers representing Prosecutor and Defense in a courtroom and Bioware is the presiding judge. Make a ruling and swing the gavel already BW! I have yet to read anywhere that the game will or will no ever allow mods, macros, etc... If somebody can point me to a source that I missed, I would love to read it. If they have not said that they do not plan to add them, then I would expect them as an inevitable inclusion to a patch somewhere down the line. They did already. Combat log is coming soon after launch. Which means damage meters. It's been quoted on like..page 50 or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xstone Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 no meters is a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amiracle Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Rules to stop people going afk in your raid. 1) Stop doing pug raids. 2) Stop doing blind guild invites. 3) Group with people before you invite them to guild. 4) Join a guild. 4 simple rules to successful raiding in any game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Rules to stop people going afk in your raid. 1) Stop doing pug raids. 2) Stop doing blind guild invites. 3) Group with people before you invite them to guild. 4) Join a guild. 4 simple rules to successful raiding in any game. Therefore we shouldn't have any kind of way to measure performance! It's all so clear now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiragrim Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Rules to stop people going afk in your raid. 1) Stop doing pug raids. 2) Stop doing blind guild invites. 3) Group with people before you invite them to guild. 4) Join a guild. 4 simple rules to successful raiding in any game. This. If someone *needs* damage meters to enjoy the game, they are playing a different game entirely. MMOs are about social experience (and I don't mean "social" like how many neighbors you have) and the story that creates. Kicking people for being less than stellar performers can be better handled by not grouping with them in the first place. Or, if that is the game you really want to play, create your guild of "uber power players" and do the social work to figure out, or train, or praise, who ever you think are the players you want to raid with. Some of the best times I have had in any MMO, or game for that matter, were the times when raids have been anything but efficient and what could have been ten minutes of glorious victory instead turned into four hour corpse recoveries. Doesn't sound fun, but it is amazing how much more socializing happens after failure than during success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CachelessClay Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I only read the first 23 pages of this thread....but it seems to be going like this. "hey, I don't want damage meters, it ruins my flashpoints/heroics" "we need damage meters for raids to keep you n00bs out!" "but then people get kicked out of flashpoints" "then don't be bad in raids!" Some of you seem to have no idea what the other side is arguing about. I doubt many pro-dps meter people would have issues with no combat log in 4 man content and I doubt may anti-dps meter people would have issues with target dummy and raid combat logs. You guys just seem to be screaming at each other for basically no reason. Well, hopefully that didn't contine for the next 50 pages this thread went that I haven't read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 You should do it how the veterans do it... you know, like pay attention to your raid members. Technology really dulls your senses, trust me. Then toss away your cell phone and any other technology you have, it's obviously dulling your mind. I guess you can give away your account to a friend because without that mind dulling tech you couldn't play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I like damage meters. I think they're a fun tool. They can be really informative, and diving into the mechanics of a game can be fun, if occasionally making it feel like you're playing Spreadsheet Wars instead of a role playing game. I will say, however, and this thread stands as perfect evidence of it, that the bulk of the player base of your average MMO are just not capable of psychologically handling damage meters. The degree to which seeing how much damage people are doing makes players LOSE THEIR MINDS is absolutely fascinating, and could be the subject of a thesis paper. The bizarre competitive/validation motivation that powers a lot of MMO addictions never rears its head so obviously as during a discussion about the bloody meter. Spreadsheet wars isn't fun. The problem is the people who don't want dps meters don't do spreadsheets either. They are happy with being bad as long as they are doing their own thing. Who cares who time they are wasting? They don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Guess you're going to do something absolutely crazy, and pay attention, then follow the elaborate trail of clues, that begins with the one guy standing perfectly still. The game is afoot, son. Now tell us how you can tell who is doing low dps while using all the wrong abilities for their spec without a damage meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Agreed. Takes away some of the magic from t he game. And then people are always trying to top the damage meter charts instead of actually just playing and HAVING FUN. Because that's why you're playing this game... right? I hope? I have fun when I know i'm playing my class efficiently I understand that some people are just here for the flashing lights but some of us want to actually be good at the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZNICK Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Nope. It has everything to do with guild control freaks kicking people for not being up to snuff instead of teaching them. Name one guild that actually taught people instead of just g-kicking them and removing them from the raid. What's that? No response? It's ok. Ours. In 12 years we have NEVER kicked someone for lack of skill. Link in sig. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I was playing wow yesterday and someone posted the dmg meters saying i wasnt doing enough... the next fight i zoned back to Org and stuck myself in combat so they couldnt kick me while i laughed at there feeble attempts to kill a dps race boss being down a dps... i dont know why people assume dmg meters will make low dpsers become hig dpsers... leave them out, i dont want to hear that you think i could be playing better, cause seriously... i couldn't care less Ahh you have to love this attitude! It's not, "Oh ok I need to be doing more dps let me figure out how I can fix that!" It's "Hahaha i'm going to waste even more of your time because I'm a child!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiinna Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Bad DD's dislike people knowing that they suck. Bad DD's make up around 50% of all the DD's (conservative estimate) Tanks and Healers damage meters, it shows just who is ACTUALLY failing, cause if the tank is failing its obvious, the healer dies, if the healer is failing its not quite obvious, as it could also be half arsed DD's failing at their job and doing LESS damage than the tank, causing the tank to take too much damage for too long. The tanks in this game actually do some serious damage, trying to keep up with them will require work. People tend to hate work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Blah. The meters don't tell whose bad. Just who has the most stats. I see you have no idea how they work. They do indeed tell you who is doing the lowest dps, what they are attacking, where the player is taking damage from and if they broke cc and such. Take a game like LOTRO. No meters. I can tell who can play and who can't with out a meter. Oh Bravo!!! Yes! Lets imitate a free to play game that'll be the secret to success! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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