It's great to PVE with no Damage Meters

[Serranex]

the OP refers to the 10% of people who are d-bags about meters. but the other 90% are using them for quality control. if people die, healer sucks. if mobs get loose, tank sucks. there needs to be a way to pinpoint underperforming dps.

 

This is a common misconception that is solved by a combat log.

 

If people die, the healer doesn't automatically suck. It's very possible that tank was not using their defensive cooldowns. It's also very possible that DPS is taking damage that they shouldn't be.

 

Without it, you will perpetuate that if people die, healers suck, when that really really is not the case.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Serranex

[SooperDaive]

Based on the link provided earlier, the data tools are coming. So there is no point to debate that any longer. My sincere hope is though, that specs and rotations aren't boiled down to one way of doing things to be effective/competitive. I hope there are a variety of builds that if played correctly, can yield competitive results.

Gotta be combat daggers, gotta be arcane, gotta be destro, gotta be whatever. That was such a bummer and it was very discouraging in WoW.

Edited December 21, 2011 by SooperDaive

[TradewindNQ]

that's something a lot of people forget, sure its a game, but its people's real time and real money they are spending on it. When you show up late to a raid, or under preform/go afk, or act like a jerk, others have a very real reason to get annoyed at you. Those who do not grasp that concept generaly do not have a job or family (to support).

 

Many people say "its just a game, get a life"

 

I say "games, by definition, are a part of life"

 

 

 

/end random tangent

 

 

It's very true, I've been a GM of a guild for...5 years now. One thing that always keeps popping up too is the idea of applying for guilds. People will say "oh it's just a game!" But when you're literally asking 24 people to commit 12 hours a week to play with you (in our case, 3x nights per week)...it's nice to know that you're not just going to waste their time.

Edited December 21, 2011 by TradewindNQ

[Pokeytehpenguin]

Based on the link provided earlier, the data tools are coming. So there is no point to debate that any longer. My sincere hope is though, that specs and rotations aren't boiled down to one way of doing things to be effective/competitive. I hope there are a variety of builds that if played correctly, can yield competitive results.

Gotta be combat daggers, gotta be arcane, gotta be destro, gotta be whatever. That was such a bummer and it was very discouraging in WoW.

 

I honestly agree with this, but that has a lot to do with game design and pvp balancing, if games did not have to worry about PVP you would see alot more viable/ interesting pve specs.

[Colobulous]

Based on the link provided earlier, the data tools are coming. So there is no point to debate that any longer. My sincere hope is though, that specs and rotations aren't boiled down to one way of doing things to be effective/competitive.

 

They pretty much already are, if you've looked at the talent trees, you'll see that they don't encourage much choice or diversity.

 

I hope there are a variety of builds that if played correctly, can yield competitive results. Gotta be combat daggers, gotta be arcane, gotta be destro, gotta be whatever. That was such a bummer and it was very discouraging in WoW.

 

Well, in that regard, they do intend to try for balance among specs. Which requires a meter from the start.

 

But you won't get much choice within a tree.

[Aidean]

Hence why it's not what we're talking about.

 

I think you miss the point of my post, as long as all add ons, are officially from Bioware.

We all have access to these tool, I am fine with damage meters.

 

If the addons are not by Bioware, I don't want them in the game.

[TradewindNQ]

I think you miss the point of my post, as long as all add ons, are officially from Bioware.

We all have access to these tool, I am fine with damage meters.

 

If the addons are not by Bioware, I don't want them in the game.

 

Why pigeon hole yourself with those requirements? If the API is there, it lets people get quite creative...opens up a whole new segment of the community to literally try and make things better.

 

Where do you think most of the more popular default UI features came from? A lot of them were adopted from custom mods that were originally developed by the customer.

Edited December 21, 2011 by TradewindNQ

[Moghra]

Nope.

 

It has everything to do with guild control freaks kicking people for not being up to snuff instead of teaching them. Name one guild that actually taught people instead of just g-kicking them and removing them from the raid.

 

What's that? No response? It's ok.

 

(budweiser voice)

 

Here's to you, guy who routinely gets kicked from the guild. You don't heal, you keyboard turn, watch tv while raiding, consider 1212121212121 optimal DPS, and stand in the fire...

 

We salute you guy who routinely gets kicked from the guild! A real man of genius.

[Putok]

When has anyone ever actually had an issue with groups abusing meters in WoW? It's been years since I've seen them linked without someone requesting it, and the only time I've ever seen someone booted for low DPS is when it's so low that it prevents the group from finishing a fight. Not being able to tell which DPS are underperforming so badly that they keep the group from succeeding isn't a very convincing argument against meters.

 

Even on underplayed/undergeared alts that do mediocre damage, I've never gotten any crap, ever, and I have done A LOT of randoms. I'm honestly inclined to believe that anyone complaining about being chastised for poor DPS probably deserved it. I run a few dozen randoms a week, and I've probably run a good few thousand over the past couple years, and it's just NEVER something that I've seen. I've seen DPS that suck HELPED by people that looked at the meters to see what they were doing wrong more often than I've seen them kicked.

 

I'm inclined to think that the people railing against meters either had a single bad experience that poisoned their opinion, or that they were doing such horrible DPS that they were wiping the group. Group-wiping-ly bad DPS is just the only time I've ever seen anyone booted, and with thousands of runs under my belt, I HIGHLY doubt that it's just good luck.

[Nendouno]

I think you miss the point of my post, as long as all add ons, are officially from Bioware.

We all have access to these tool, I am fine with damage meters.

 

If the addons are not by Bioware, I don't want them in the game.

 

If everything had to be developed by the developers first then we would probably not even having this discussions about damage meters right now.

 

A lot of great minds working together for a great gaming experience brings more creativity than just a single company.

 

Who were the first ones to make quest trackers making the questing experience much smoother (there is no skill or fun in searching for things just annoying, hence why people turned to sites such as wowhead, and later addons that did the same) ?

It was the customers. Then the companies who made new games (and even WoW with their update) added ingame quest trackers that showed up on the map. This would not have happened if it wasn't for player made addons and unofficial websites.

 

If it wasn't for player initiative you would be spending half your leveling time looking up quests at torhead.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Nendouno

[Yfelsung]

I'll be honest, one of my major desires behind getting a DPS meter is so that I can out DPS people as a tank.

 

I do love the after boss conversations.

 

Me "So... you're a DPS class, eh?"

Player "Yeah, why?"

Me "Well, I'm the tank, right?"

Player "Yeah... why?"

Me "Well... *teeth sucking noise* I nearly doubled your damage."

Player "Well, uh, you outgear me!"

Me "I'm wearing Endurance gear with +def and a lot less Strength than I would in DPS gear of your level."

Player "Well... your class is OP!"

Me "You're playing the same class, just the DPS variant. Small suggestion: turn down the suck."

[Colobulous]

I think you miss the point of my post, as long as all add ons, are officially from Bioware.

 

It's not an addon if it is from the company involved. You would be better off saying "I want all features to come from Bioware" but there are reasons why it is beneficial to allow others to contribute.

 

We all have access to these tool, I am fine with damage meters.

 

Yes, everybody who wants addons wants them to be generally accessible, though in the case of a damage meter, they rely on the combat log anyway, which is something we all should have the same access to anyway.

 

If the addons are not by Bioware, I don't want them in the game.

 

And your articulation fails to persuade, since the people who do want addons want them to be through an official API, and I'm sure most of us would be fine with an official Bioware DL site if you wanted one, though I can't say I'd require it, I wouldn't say "No, no, they shouldn't do it" but just shrug and say, ok, you can go with that if you like.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Colobulous

[Terko_Koslah]

I dunno why this thread exists anyway. Metering tools for players are on the way, as SWTOR's lead dev loves them and thinks it's a good idea for players to have access to that data.

 

DPS meters are coming, whether you want them or not.

 

If this is true I'll never group again. I dislike all kinds of metaplaying things.

[Fahfrd]

First off meters are an analysis tool that speeds up decision making. I am in no way elitist but I hold my own in whatever group I've been in WoW. I've been a GM of more than one guild consisting of mostly casual raiders. I.e. folks that are pretty good players but don't have time to devote to hardcore raiding.

 

Combat logs & damage meters (which also DO show activity of healers, cc breaks, etc. btw) are a really really useful tool for many many reasons. A tool is only as good as the person using it and the purpose for which it was used. I'm glad when the police defending my wife and kid have a gun (tool). Not so much when the person breaking into my house does.

 

Meters neither increase the amount of jerks who misuse them or decrease them. There will never be a jerk-free game (even if you play alone...saw the joke had to try it). If you are in a group with a jerk leave it. Eventually he'll get the hint. If someone is giving you honest feedback to help make you a better player accept it. If you are expecting people with limited playtime to carry you through an instance where you are underperforming then don't be offended when they ask you to step out.

 

I've used meters to help teach others to play, to see how well I play, and to see if we can get bosses down before timers go boom boom. I've kicked jerks that are good to make a run more fun and I've kicked underperformers for the same reason.

 

The main advice I can give folks is this...Play with people who play the game like you do. That way you'll always have fun. Hardcores will gravitate toward the same as will casuals. The only time this really comes up is in pugs. If the pug isn't fun or they are being rude...then kick them or hop out. Have fun people and don't sweat others that try and steal that from you.

 

Peace out and good hunting!

Edited December 21, 2011 by Fahfrd

[Backbones]

If this is true I'll never group again. I dislike all kinds of metaplaying things.

 

I think this actually just falls under 'playing'.

[Kurnea]

I think you miss the point of my post, as long as all add ons, are officially from Bioware.

We all have access to these tool, I am fine with damage meters.

 

If the addons are not by Bioware, I don't want them in the game.

 

Whatever api the addons use is created specifically by Bioware. Whatever functionality the addons have use of is officially something Bioware allows.

[LuciferusStar]

yes i always loved out dpsen every one in wow with my protection pally....

[Rollcage]

I'm sure staring at dps meters worrying about performance is the absolute best thing this game could offer when they're pushing for story in my gameplay experience.

 

I've played wow and many other mmos, if meters become a standard I simply will not participate in group activities with other players, its a complete copout feature for bad game design.

 

Meters break immersion and create negativity amongst the player base.

 

And the only upside is everyone can see which person failed to do their job properly so they can make the run easier.

 

/cheats activated

 

IDDQD

[Putok]

First off meters are an analysis tool that speeds up decision making. I am in no way elitist but I hold my own in whatever group I've been in WoW. I've been a GM of more than one guild consisting of mostly casual raiders. I.e. folks that are pretty good players but don't have time to devote to hardcore raiding.

 

Combat logs & damage meters (which also DO show activity of healers, cc breaks, etc. btw) are a really really useful tool for many many reasons. A tool is only as good as the person using it and the purpose for which it was used. I'm glad when the police defending my wife and kid have a gun (tool). Not so much when the person breaking into my house does.

 

Meters neither increase the amount of jerks who misuse them or decrease them. There will never be a jerk-free game (even if you play alone...saw the joke had to try it). If you are in a group with a jerk leave it. Eventually he'll get the hint. If someone is giving you honest feedback to help make you a better player accept it. If you are expecting people with limited playtime to carry you through an instance where you are underperforming then don't be offended when they ask you to step out.

 

I've used meters to help teach others to play, to see how well I play, and to see if we can get bosses down before timers go boom boom. I've kicked jerks that are good to make a run more fun and I've kicked underperformers for the same reason.

 

The main advice I can give folks is this...Play with people who play the game like you do. That way you'll always have fun. Hardcores will gravitate toward the same as will casuals. The only time this really comes up is in pugs. If the pug isn't fun or they are being rude...then kick them or hop out. Have fun people and don't sweat others that try and steal that from you.

 

Peace out and good hunting!

 

Good post.

 

Damage meters are not a problem. Jerks are.

 

And as I said, I've never really seen them abused, or use to justify booting someone that was underperfoming to the point of preventing the group from winning. I've seen people doing HORRIBLE DPS not removed from the party countless times, because the other DPS were overperforming by enough of a margin to render it a non-issue.

[Bigguyonarock]

I'm sure staring at dps meters worrying about performance is the absolute best thing this game could offer when they're pushing for story in my gameplay experience.

 

I've played wow and many other mmos, if meters become a standard I simply will not participate in group activities with other players, its a complete copout feature for bad game design.

 

Meters break immersion and create negativity amongst the player base.

 

And the only upside is everyone can see which person failed to do their job properly so they can make the run easier.

 

/cheats activated

 

IDDQD

 

Really? Immersion breaking?

 

Do you scroll into First Person and disable the UI and flytext as well?

 

If a simple UI element shatters your immersion, I pity your imagination.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Bigguyonarock

[Thradar]

fantastic, I can finally enjoy flashpoints without some kid linking his meter every 3 mins to brag.

 

what a blast, thanks for not including a combat log bioware!

 

Honestly...I completely agree with this.

[BrimstoneAshe]

Nope.

 

It has everything to do with guild control freaks kicking people for not being up to snuff instead of teaching them. Name one guild that actually taught people instead of just g-kicking them and removing them from the raid.

 

What's that? No response? It's ok.

 

Vulgar Saxon Pigs, Eitrigg in World of WarCraft. You're welcome.

[Tahana]

It's very true, I've been a GM of a guild for...5 years now. One thing that always keeps popping up too is the idea of applying for guilds. People will say "oh it's just a game!" But when you're literally asking 24 people to commit 12 hours a week to play with you (in our case, 3x nights per week)...it's nice to know that you're not just going to waste their time.

 

Is your guild ever going to clear H content in current gear vs overgear trade?? btw yes I do remember you from Winterhoof,

[Nymaeria]

First off meters are an analysis tool that speeds up decision making. I am in no way elitist but I hold my own in whatever group I've been in WoW. I've been a GM of more than one guild consisting of mostly casual raiders. I.e. folks that are pretty good players but don't have time to devote to hardcore raiding.

 

Combat logs & damage meters (which also DO show activity of healers, cc breaks, etc. btw) are a really really useful tool for many many reasons. A tool is only as good as the person using it and the purpose for which it was used. I'm glad when the police defending my wife and kid have a gun (tool). Not so much when the person breaking into my house does.

 

Meters neither increase the amount of jerks who misuse them or decrease them. There will never be a jerk-free game (even if you play alone...saw the joke had to try it). If you are in a group with a jerk leave it. Eventually he'll get the hint. If someone is giving you honest feedback to help make you a better player accept it. If you are expecting people with limited playtime to carry you through an instance where you are underperforming then don't be offended when they ask you to step out.

 

I've used meters to help teach others to play, to see how well I play, and to see if we can get bosses down before timers go boom boom. I've kicked jerks that are good to make a run more fun and I've kicked underperformers for the same reason.

 

The main advice I can give folks is this...Play with people who play the game like you do. That way you'll always have fun. Hardcores will gravitate toward the same as will casuals. The only time this really comes up is in pugs. If the pug isn't fun or they are being rude...then kick them or hop out. Have fun people and don't sweat others that try and steal that from you.

 

Peace out and good hunting!

 

^^ I can't say it much better myself. ^^

 

If this is true I'll never group again. I dislike all kinds of metaplaying things.

 

If you and people like you will not group simply because combat logs and damage meters exist in a game, you should probably be playing a single player RPG.

[TradewindNQ]

Is your guild ever going to clear H content in current gear vs overgear trade?? btw yes I do remember you from Winterhoof,

 

The same could be said for almost anyone on that awful server lol (10s don't count), best move ever was leaving it. Crap player base, crap recruitment prospects etc. Why the hostility?!

 

fyi nobody who played there has room to talk lol

Edited December 21, 2011 by TradewindNQ