Caelrie Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I believe the consent would have been mutual or I would not have joined. You're free to join groups that agree not to scrutinize you. You're not free to prevent people from scrutinizing you. That's just not how these games work. Groups are a team effort and people have the right to evaluate your part of that effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 As any group of random idiots can clear the latest raid content in WoW in a couple of hours, I don't find that impressive That must be why nobody's done it yet. Maybe you don't know as much about WoW as you think you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baizak Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Was it ever said anywhere that they do not intend to ever add mods, macros, damage meters or other things of this nature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scerion Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 You know that those people without the dps meter that you somehow say did more dps than the ones with (no idea if that's even true, but let's say I believe you) actually wouldn't be able to do so if there wasn't a dps meter in the first place? Look up the term theorycrafting. People work out the best rotation mathematically, not by whacking a dummy with a stick. And we banned recount from raids, so nobody had it enabled. The DPS meter in our team was nothing but detrimental - the people already knew how to play (if you're were raiding heroic FL, believe me, you DID know what you were doing) Anyone competent would use rawr simulations to work out the best rotations for their class, spec and gear level. Recount is a "tool" used by people who want to stroke their epeen or who just don't know any better and think it's the way to the best DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolishwtf Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 i love how it lets me afk in battlegrounds, since you can't tell I havent been doing anything till the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradewindNQ Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) Yeah I know, putting effort into things is hard, right? As I've said (several times now) a combat log is fine, which can be uploaded to an online analysis tool (like the old wow-heroes site) and will give much better information than a DPS meter will, whacking on a training dummy. And if you really think that a DPS meter is the way to optimise your performance you must be living in 2005 - there are MUCH better tools out now that any progression raider will use (and I did when I used to raid heavily.) DPS meters are primitive tools used only for epeen stroking. Also, if you really have to use such a thng, because you don't know about the other options (as you clearly don't) then a DPS meter that shows only your own stats would be fine. It's when everyone elses stats are gathered, and then used as the source of an argument/trolling session, I have an issue. Hostile much? That's a lot of posturing with absolutely no examples given. Recount, world of logs; pretty much the best combination of tools at the moment for personal and group assessment. As for individual, choose your poison. Mine is SimCraft. Recount is just a damage meter, but it also has useful information. Death logs for example, good way to see how something happened that lead to a wipe without having to fish through a combat log and waste people's time. See above. I don't want YOU collecting data about ME. Even if I'm doing 10 times your DPS, I still don't want YOU reading MY data. You (and others) still haven't actually provided any compelling argument as to why that would be a bad thing. Which just lends more credence to the idea that these people who are opposing the idea have something to hide. As any group of random idiots can clear the latest raid content in WoW in a couple of hours, I don't find that impressive. I'm not going to bother waving my epeen, but I'll just say I don't find that impressive at all ;-) (but I will say my raid team were the 2nd on our realm to get Yogg+1 and also the Firefighter achievement back when it was extremely hard. Current raids in WoW are designed to make "everyone a winner!!") We didn't use DPS meters to aid progress at all. We used combat logs and a little tool called rawr which can simulate combat for a character in any set of gear - suggest improvements and rotation, buffs, stat food etc. It makes looking at the childish charts from recount look like a big joke. Yeah, I'm not talking LFR difficulty. I also find it funny you said you don't want to wave your e-peen, then do the exact opposite afterwards (/yawn btw). I also find it highly dubious that any competitive raiding guild doesn't...since most do. So how far into ICC did you go back and do Yogg+1? PS. Rawr is awful, there are stronger tools developed for individual classes and a font of information in class forums that will do a better job. It's also not exactly a mystery what food/buffs and consumables would be in aid of your raid or character. So I don't see how that's relevant at all to the debate here. Edited December 21, 2011 by TradewindNQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baizak Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Look up the term theorycrafting. People work out the best rotation mathematically, not by whacking a dummy with a stick. And we banned recount from raids, so nobody had it enabled. The DPS meter in our team was nothing but detrimental - the people already knew how to play (if you're were raiding heroic FL, believe me, you DID know what you were doing) Anyone competent would use rawr simulations to work out the best rotations for their class, spec and gear level. Recount is a "tool" used by people who want to stroke their epeen or who just don't know any better and think it's the way to the best DPS. this is true, because recount can only be used after the fact and does not account for spacial awareness/movement/cc and other things of that nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scerion Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 That must be why nobody's done it yet. Maybe you don't know as much about WoW as you think you do. Deathwing gets killed about 300 times a day on my old realm apparently. I didn't mention heroic mode, but then neither did the other poster. Using the random raid finder, any group in blue/purple gear can down the final boss of the expansion with few problems, it's a joke and I'm not surprised so many big raiding guilds left WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhit Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I don't want YOU collecting data about ME. Even if I'm doing 10 times your DPS, I still don't want YOU reading MY data. Since you are fighting the same mob as I am fighting--doesn't that make it OUR data? Plus, when you have 10x the dps of the healer--that is not a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colobulous Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 You're free to join groups that agree not to scrutinize you. You're not free to prevent people from scrutinizing you. That's just not how these games work. Groups are a team effort and people have the right to evaluate your part of that effort. I would add "While in the same group" to your second sentence there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Deathwing gets killed about 300 times a day on my old realm apparently. I didn't mention heroic mode, but then neither did the other poster. Using the random raid finder, any group in blue/purple gear can down the final boss of the expansion with few problems, it's a joke and I'm not surprised so many big raiding guilds left WoW. It doesn't count as the hardest content if it's not heroic mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokeytehpenguin Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 i love how it lets me afk in battlegrounds, since you can't tell I havent been doing anything till the end No, we see you, we just cant report you or do anything about it honestly I hate those people, with a passion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) You are seriously trying to make combat logs seem like a violation of your privacy that you need to consent to? Yes, just join a guild full of people who feel the same as you and stay away from me. Personally, I'd like to have hard stats as to why to keep or kick you from my group. Yes, whether you're a nice person also matters quite a lot, but you apparently aren't. You're one of those people whom if I try to help you out to do better, you snob on me for being an elitist.Not at all. A great raider may not shine on any meters because they're too busy covering their teammates' backsides during an epic fight. But they also aren't hitting their metric targets so, by opposing argument, they'd get replaced. I am merely against tools being substituted for intelligent decision making. That's what it became in WoW and my preference is that it stay there. Edited December 21, 2011 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_osss Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I'm a min/max'er and even I appreciate no damage meters. I like the extra challenge of figuring out how much damage I'm doing without the meters. Not everyone can do it so it's another way to set apart good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradewindNQ Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) Deathwing gets killed about 300 times a day on my old realm apparently. I didn't mention heroic mode, but then neither did the other poster. Using the random raid finder, any group in blue/purple gear can down the final boss of the expansion with few problems, it's a joke and I'm not surprised so many big raiding guilds left WoW. Curious what realm that is now. Considering I don't know of any realm with 300 guilds that are 8/8...even my realm...which is one of the most competitive in the US doesn't have that many. Edited December 21, 2011 by TradewindNQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nendouno Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) I love how Scerion talks about how he hates people who flashes their E-peen, and yet he does the same to an extreme. Though, in his case he got no proof. I guess that's where it's at. People who like to live in ignorance. Edited December 21, 2011 by Nendouno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Look up the term theorycrafting. People work out the best rotation mathematically, not by whacking a dummy with a stick. And we banned recount from raids, so nobody had it enabled. The DPS meter in our team was nothing but detrimental - the people already knew how to play (if you're were raiding heroic FL, believe me, you DID know what you were doing) Anyone competent would use rawr simulations to work out the best rotations for their class, spec and gear level. Recount is a "tool" used by people who want to stroke their epeen or who just don't know any better and think it's the way to the best DPS. A DPS meter can also let you know who stood in the fire or not. As the guy who stood in the fire died, and his damage stops counting up. If he managed to outdamage someone who stayed alive the whole fight, the guy who died in the fire is still worth more than the dude who survived all fight. Assuming both are DPS classes. That's the nice thing, overall damage can really tell you a lot about a fight. In the end, the DPSer who did the most damage to the boss did the best job, regardless of if he survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokeytehpenguin Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I'm a min/max'er and even I appreciate no damage meters. I like the extra challenge of figuring out how much damage I'm doing without the meters. Well, I suppose that certainly is a big challenge, let me know when you figure out how much damage that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I'm a min/max'er and even I appreciate no damage meters. I like the extra challenge of figuring out how much damage I'm doing without the meters. Not everyone can do it so it's another way to set apart good players. I find that people who think they can do that really can't and are always playing sub-optimally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foolishwtf Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Thanks bioware for skimping out on having to code a combat log, err i mean not burdening us with damage meters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradewindNQ Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Well, I suppose that certainly is a big challenge, let me know when you figure out how much damage that is. they're going to have to use the Scerion method of raiding one handed while writing down their combat log with the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokeytehpenguin Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Thanks bioware for skimping out on having to code a combat log, err i mean not burdening us with damage meters! Have to defend BW here...of all the MMO launches I have seen (and there have been many) none were as well polished and put together day one as SWTOR, don't worry the log is coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colobulous Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) Not at all. A great raider may not shine on any meters because they're too busy covering their teammates' backsides during an epic fight. But they also aren't hitting their metric targets so, by opposing argument, they'd get replaced. I am merely against tools being substituted for intelligent decision making. Please give us specific examples of actions taken that would be beneficial but not show up in the combat log. It would take a very contrived situation where somebody was contributing by standing around waiting for something to happen. Still, if you can articulate it, go ahead and tell us. Edited December 21, 2011 by Colobulous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Not at all. A great raider may not shine on any meters because they're too busy covering their teammates' backsides during a long fight. But they aren't hitting their metric targets so they get replaced. I am merely against tools being abused in lieu of intelligent decision making. Any great raid-group will easily recognize who's actually covering their teammate's backsides, and often as not meters back that up. "Tommy's barely doing better dps than the tank!" "That's because Tommy's switching to the adds. Btw, recount show's you haven't switched to the adds once. Why aren't you helping on that?" "Because my meters go down if I switch off the boss..." "And... kick." Your problem isn't with tools, it's that you don't choose who you group with carefully enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) Any great raid-group will easily recognize who's actually covering their teammate's backsides, and often as not meters back that up. "Tommy's barely doing better dps than the tank!" "That's because Tommy's switching to the adds. Btw, recount show's you haven't switched to the adds once. Why aren't you helping on that?" "Because my meters go down if I switch off the boss..." "And... kick." Your problem isn't with tools, it's that you don't choose who you group with carefully enough.Damage meters or combat logs? Edited December 21, 2011 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts