[Balance] How to fix Balance (without screwing over sages)

[Majspuffen]

A lot of people were alarmed by the low DPS Balance Shadows parsed. Bioware patted us on the head and said that in a raid environment, we'd deal the same amount of damage as everyone else, since our damage will supposedly sky-rocket during the execute phase.

 

This is bad design, in my opinion. As such, I have a simple suggestion that will not only give balance higher sustained damage and less "sky-rocket" damage during the execute phase, but also restore some of the lost fun to the spec.

 

Simple suggestion; Replace "Crush Spirit" with a new talent that allows for the use of Shadow Strike.

 

And if I am to expand upon this idea a bit, I'd suggest something like this:

[Talent name]

Your damage over time abilties have a 15/30% chance to grant [buff name], reducing the force cost of your next Shadow Strike by 75%. In addition, your Shadow Strike will deal x% more damage per active damage over time debuff present on your target.

 

This way, Balance shadows also gets to use Shadow Strike, and they get a Shadow Strike with its own distinction. What do you think?

Edited April 10, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Elyxin]

I think the issue is less about us losing critical damage, and more about Bio deciding that balance had too many things to press due to the previous configuration. So I doubt the idea of replacing something they took out on purpose will go a long ways with them.

 

Not that I agree with them but the dev for the classes specifically stated that it was intentional to bring the amount of skills necessary to use down to the level of the other classes. now...I liked how it worked before, and Im totally game for the addition of something. I'd prefer something else though...SS is already more of a token infiltration move, id prefer something more akin to the force/melee mix that is the balance. like a skill that reduced the cost of project to a reasonable level, gave it a longer range, and perhaps a melee based proc that increased it's chance to crit. then we'd have a high single target ranged attack that feels more like a "balance" skill to me

[invertioN]

I'd prefer something else though...SS is already more of a token infiltration move, id prefer something more akin to the force/melee mix that is the balance. like a skill that reduced the cost of project to a reasonable level, gave it a longer range, and perhaps a melee based proc that increased it's chance to crit. then we'd have a high single target ranged attack that feels more like a "balance" skill to me

I can see that work, putting a proc for Project high in the balance tree. It would be something similar to Infiltration tactics.

[Majspuffen]

I'd prefer shadow strike. I don't like that it sits on my toolbar being completely useless. But I'd be okay with project too, as long as we get something more to our rotation. Because right now it's really boring, and we lack single target pressure for pvp.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that Shadows already have a move to use in the execution phase. I think that Crush Spirit is overkill. It makes sense for Sages who do not have Spinning strike, but Shadows really should get something else to increase their sustained damage.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Assillius]

Simple suggestion; Replace "Crush Spirit" with a new talent that allows for the use of Shadow Strike.

 

And if I am to expand upon this idea a bit, I'd suggest something like this:

[Talent name]

Your damage over time abilties have a 15/30% chance to grant [buff name], reducing the force cost of your next Shadow Strike by 75%. In addition, your Shadow Strike will deal x% more damage per active damage over time debuff present on your target.

 

This way, Balance shadows also gets to use Shadow Strike, and they get a Shadow Strike with its own distinction. What do you think?

agree but personally i would make like Shadow strike costs 50-75% less and does more dmg based on how many dots the target has

[Majspuffen]

agree but personally i would make like Shadow strike costs 50-75% less and does more dmg based on how many dots the target has

 

That's pretty much what I suggested.

[Jesz]

Id say they should just make it so that Balance Shadows have 1 DoT that ticks for a lot of dmg and increase the damage of double strike. DoTing people takes a lot of time and if it's 1 DoT its more than enough to keep track of and instead of the other DoT, they could add some cool move that hits for almost as much dmg as shadow strike.. I've leveled my shadow cause i rly like the way the double bladed saber looks. But now I'm thinking that i've made a terrible mistake. Edited April 20, 2013 by Jesz

[Majspuffen]

I've given up at this point. I read the Consular/Sage blog and I felt furious. I wanted to write something, but it's moot at this point. The damage has been done. The Balance spec is now incredibly boring, and not only that, it's viability for PvP has been significantly lowered, and it's pve dps is too damn reliant on the 30% mark to be useful.

 

I haven't played my Shadow since 2.0 launched. Can't say I have been able to find a replacement for the spec either, no spec seem to have the same flow and active feel that the old Balance spec possessed. If I quit this game, Bioware ruining one of the most unique specs in the game will be high on my list as to why.

[sainik]

I've given up at this point. I read the Consular/Sage blog and I felt furious. I wanted to write something, but it's moot at this point. The damage has been done. The Balance spec is now incredibly boring, and not only that, it's viability for PvP has been significantly lowered, and it's pve dps is too damn reliant on the 30% mark to be useful.

 

I haven't played my Shadow since 2.0 launched. Can't say I have been able to find a replacement for the spec either, no spec seem to have the same flow and active feel that the old Balance spec possessed. If I quit this game, Bioware ruining one of the most unique specs in the game will be high on my list as to why.

 

Completely agree about the feel of the spec. I tried a pure balance spec once in pvp, its simply not worth it without SS. I tried fiddling around with 0/23/23 hybrids but its still not the same without sever force and Mental scarring.

 

The sad thing is that (from the dev diary) they feel shadow strike feels "clunky" on top of a pure balance spec. It means that they do not feel the same way about balance as we do (or simply don't play it enough). Apparently it was a mistake on their part that resulted in the awesomeness that was balance pre 2.0. With so much feedback at hand, they can either tap into that serendipity and make the balance spec awesome again, or just let it fade away and be a generic and boring spec.

 

- A balance shadow spec fan since launch.

[sainik]

Just wanted to add some suggestions.

 

First up, infiltration tactics (IT) without the 30 % damage boost needs to be a baseline ability for all shadows. It could then be upgraded differently in each of the three trees. For kinetic combat, IT would enable shadow strike from any direction, for infiltration it would give a 30 % damage boost to shadow strike (and some ideas below for what IT could do for balance). This would make it uniform for all specs, as opposed to the way it is on live, when only combat and infil can use the true shadow abilities and balance can only dream of being a second rate shadow.

 

Here is what shadow strike could do for balance:

1. As people before me have suggested, the damage from shadow strike could be increased by x% per dot effect on target. This would make the mechanic very similar to cull though.

 

2. IT could cause shadow strike could apply weakness to the target, causing your next two (or three) periodic abilities on the target to critically hit, and increase the healing done by Focused insight by 25 % (or less) for 3 seconds.

 

3. IT could cause shadow strike to increase the range of the next project or TK throw by 5 (or 10 ) meters.

 

I personally prefer a mix of 2 and 3 (with durations, proc chances and magnitudes appropriately toned to not make it OP but still keep it interesting). Rotation wise it does not make it any more complicated than it is on live: the only ability added to the rotation is shadow strike. Project and TK throw wont do much DPS wise (so not a part of normal rotation), but the balance shadows can use it when out of the 10m range, and hence is a great tool for PVP (of course it requires a setup, so cannot be used right at start). Most importantly, it brings in uniformity into all the trees. For eg for project: KC gets auto crit on project, infil gets increased critical damage on project, and balance gets range on project. For shadow strike: KC can use shadow strike from the front, infil uses shadow strike for heavy burst, balance uses shadow strike to speed up the dot damage. Simple, and uniform.

 

For force regen they could bring back sharpened mind, but they could tie it to shadow strike if they dont want to add an additional mechanic. Just dont make it a behind-the-scenes-with-no-control mechanic (like its on live), but something the players can actively engage in.

 

I normally dont make such posts, partly because I feel its much easier to come up with ideas and much harder for you guys to properly test, evaluate and implement them, but I disagree with the changes to balance 2.0 so much that I had to say something.

 

What do fellow shadows think ?

Edited April 22, 2013 by sainik
Typo

[Brillat]

I agree, reading the dev blog one gets the impression that the dev did not play a Balance Shadow pre 2.0 and experience the 'difficult fun' that made the spec awesome. My shadow has been Balance since level 40 and while I've tried the othher two specs I just keep coming back .... but something feels missing in 2.0 :-(

 

My DoTs are better. I still perform well in WZs but I don't have burst or control. The *strength* of Balance has always been sustained dps and light self-heals (the 'drain skirmisher' model mentioned in the dev blog) but we also had access to some burst potential (via Infiltration Tactics) and a bit of control (via instant Force Lift.)

 

I can see the point of not wanting Balance to need to access a fundamental Infiltration skill and have it alter their playstyle, but depriving one spec of Shadow of a useful Shadow Strike (the 'signature' move of the class) and any real burst potential while they're at it was poorly thought out. Why not introduce some kind of skill in the Balance tree that makes Shadow Strike viable for burst (even if it isn't viable for sustained rotations if the PvE Balance Shadows can't master more than three buttons?)

 

As a DoT spec which has to be in melee range to deal significant damage, I don't think instant Force Lift (a single-target mez broken by our own DoTs - compare Dirty Fighting Scoundrels - our closest equivalent - *AoE* mez that *isn't* broken by their own DoTs ..... or compare Infiltration - 4 sec hard stun on a 15s cooldown) was excessive. If there was anything problematic it was with Balance Sages who can already DoT people up and then run away from 30-35m having an extra ranged CC. It should have been taken away from Sages but not us.

 

Also ... while we're at it, why take our armour talent out of the first tier of Infiltration? We spend more time 'skirmishing' out of stealth than Infil, and need the melee survivability more than the spec with infinity-hundred stuns and massive burst.

 

TL;DR version: we can still provide sustained damage and be effective, but the 2.0 changes took away fun, burst potential, control and survivability we needed for an unneeded and un-asked-for 'reduction in complexity'.

[sainik]

If there was anything problematic it was with Balance Sages who can already DoT people up and then run away from 30-35m having an extra ranged CC. It should have been taken away from Sages but not us.

 

This exactly. In general I got a feeling from their blog that they don't want to treat balance shadow and sage as two different specs, and are somehow constraining themselves by desperately trying to make the shared trees identical. Again its not as if that's a general design idea: Lethality operative and lethality sniper play so different even though they share a tree. Lethality operative feels like an operative, with TA management and having no cooldown ability (i.e. similar to medic and concealment trees) in cull, whereas the sniper plays like a sniper with heavy damage channeled ability (i.e. similar to the MM and Eng trees) in cull.

 

Balance shadow however, does not play like a shadow in 2.0. In one swoop, they took away shadow strike, project and force lift from our priority rotation, whereas almost all other trees have had abilities added to their rotation. If anything, right now a balance sage is more fun to play, because as a balance sage I have a whole bunch of heal skills I need to juggle with in addition to the damage rotation. Balance shadow has nothing to do once they spread out dots, unless they want to spread out the dots even more. Simply does not make sense.

Edited April 23, 2013 by sainik

[Civilie]

Yeah, seems like we were all pretty furious when we read the Dev's post on Consular changes, specifically the part about Shadow Strike in Balance. I already ranted over there, won't do it again here.

 

I like Majspuffin's idea for a Shadow Strike talent. However, I would replace Lambaste with it - keeps in high in the tree to give incentive to full Balance, and replaces a 100% useless talent. I'd like to see Crush Spirit replaced with something similar to Twin Disciplines, but make it so the use of Project OR Telekinetic Throw grants a 15% melee buff for 20 secs. I also like the idea of TK throw hitting for (x)% higher per DoT applied to target. Finally, Sharpened Mind really needs to be returned, replacing Rippling Force.

[sainik]

Any response from the class design team on this ?

 

We don’t believe we’ve fundamentally changed Balance Shadows as they are still very much drain skirmishers,

 

As many long term balance players have attested to, there has been a change in playstyle. There is a fundamental dichotomy between how the spec plays and how we perceive / role play it. So - does the design team agree with these posts (in this thread and others) ? Are they considering making changes to the balance tree ? Or is balance 2.0 here to stay ?

 

Class balance maybe a never ending thing, but this is a different issue that pertains to playstyle and role play. Any response from the dev tem (either way) would be much appreciated

[AMKSED]

I always thought Balance spec should have gotten the Harnessed Shadows Telekinetic Damage buff instead of Kinetic Combat.

[sainik]

Plenty of excellent suggestions already. Majspuffen's idea is probably the best. Mainly purpose of the post is a bump, but more ideas below:

 

An idea is to replace Lambaste and Crush Spirit with the following:

 

1. Every force ability you use increases the damage of Shadow strike by x% and reduces the force cost of Shadow strike by x%. Stacks upto x times, goes on cooldown once used for x seconds.

 

2. Every melee ability you use increases the range (and damage ?) of project and TK throw by x%. Stacks upto x times, goes on cooldown once used for x seconds.

 

Pretty intuitive.

[Ritsugamesh]

Really like a lot of these suggestions, especially the Shadow Strike DoT tie ins to promote proper application of DoTs to pave the way for quality melee combat.

 

I'll begin wracking my brains to see whether I can think of more meaningful contributions to the suggestions.

[Majspuffen]

Plenty of excellent suggestions already. Majspuffen's idea is probably the best. Mainly purpose of the post is a bump, but more ideas below:

 

An idea is to replace Lambaste and Crush Spirit with the following:

 

1. Every force ability you use increases the damage of Shadow strike by x% and reduces the force cost of Shadow strike by x%. Stacks upto x times, goes on cooldown once used for x seconds.

 

2. Every melee ability you use increases the range (and damage ?) of project and TK throw by x%. Stacks upto x times, goes on cooldown once used for x seconds.

 

Pretty intuitive.

 

Both are good suggestions and I'd happily see any of them implemented to the game. It's kind of sad that Bioware does not seem to recognize this. It's mind-boggling, actually. This is a hot-key based MMO. We want to use our keybindings. We want a reason to use every single ability, preferably with some synergy.

 

I have not levelled up my Shadow. She sits at level 50, alone and miserable ... I've only played my Operative, and the lethality spec right now fulfills my desires well enough. It's a whole lot of cull-spam, but it's fun spam because you need time to set it up. I dare say it's actually a greater challenge to get in to than what Balance ever was, and the punishment for playing poorly is much more severe. That being said, I still prefer the feel of the 1.7 Balance Spec because of the flow. Bioware saying that the spec was "clunky" just shows how damn inexperienced they are.

 

 

Some more suggestions:

Lambaste needs to be removed. Replace it with a talent that allows for the use of Shadow Strike.

Replace Crush Spirit with a new talent that increases the crit chance of our dots. This will up our sustained damage and make up for the loss of DPS at the 30% mark, and it will also help us out in PvP. I imagine it would have to be quite a severe buff, perhaps 15/30% greater chance to crit with dots. I imagine our Sage brethren would love such a talent as well.

 

Brainstorming:

[Talent name]

Your damage over time effects have a 30% chance when they deal damage to grant [buff] which reduces the cost of your next Shadow Strike or Project by 75%. In addition, Project now increases damage dealt by your melee attacks by 10% for 20 seconds.

 

(Basically Infiltration Tactics and Twin Disciplines in one, minus the 30% more damage on Shadow Strike)

 

[Talent name]

When Telekinetic Throw deals damage, the target is inflicted by [debuff], stacking up to 4. [debuff] increases the damage done by Shadow Strike by 30% and each Shadow Strike will consume one charge.

 

(Similar effect to the old Twin Disciplines. Using a force attack to boost a melee attack. The only difference is that this one requires more management. Bioware view that as a bad thing, but I think most of us who loved the 1.7 balance view that as something fun. In order for this talent to work, we'd need a proc that reduces the cost of Shadow Strike).

 

[Talent name]

When your Force Technique deals damage you have a 30% chance to gain [buff]. [buff] causes your next Shadow Strike to deal its damage as Force damage and allows it to consume a Force Suppression charge. In addition, when your Shadow Strike consumes a Force Suppression charge, you are restored 40 Force.

 

(A bit of a backwards Infiltration Tactics that suits the Balance playstyle and further increases the synergy between attacks. This way our Shadow Strike will be unique; through Force Suppression it will deal 20% more damage, which is less than infiltration tactics... but the damage will be yellow, which is great for pvp).

 

Anyways, I could sit here and brainstorm all night. It's not too difficult to come up with fun ideas on how to spice up the game play. What really sucks is that Bioware did the complete opposite. They came up with bad ideas on how to remove flavour from a spec. So, if you're reading this Bioware... remind yourselves that you are making an MMORPG, and that you need to encourage players to click the buttons you give them.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Majspuffen

[sainik]

Exactly. I don't play many MMORPG, but I do play LOTRO from time to time. They have classes like the lore master and warden (challenging and satisfying) alongside the champion and hunter (simple and relaxing). Such things keep everyone happy. Being a free to play game, I thought you would want to be inclusive of players of all tastes.

 

Its not just that. If balance tree was released the way it is on live, I wouldn' t have bothered, but its being changed so much so deep in the game's timeline. Not that balance shadow were that complex to begin with, they were just more flexible, and had a solution for every scenario.

 

In any case, I like all the ideas, especially the ones that build synergy with melee and force abilities. I will try to come up with more later in the day, not because we need more, but just to keep the discussion going (and for the bumps).

Edited April 25, 2013 by sainik

[sainik]

Here is another suggestion for containment:

 

Containment: Reduces the activation time of Force Lift by 0.25 seconds. In addition, if Phase walk is not deployed, the activation time for force lift is reduced by another 1.5 seconds. If your Force Lift breaks early from damage, the target is stunned for 2 seconds.

 

This ensures that we have both phase walk and instant force lift, but not at the same time. It is still possible to use Phase walk followed by force lift, but that seems very rare to me, as phase walk is primarily being used to get out of LOS.

 

Instant Force lift followed by Phase walk might be OP in some scenarios, but this change will not allow for that, so everybody wins.

 

As a more general comment, the deployment time of phase walk needs to be increased (its 1.5 minutes now if I recall correctly). I understand that this impacts shadow's shelter for tanks, but I feel it needs to be increased to 3 or 4 minutes, at least for the DPS trees. Most of the time I end up using phase walk just because the deployment time is ending, rather than save it for tough situations.

[Majspuffen]

I've seen a lot of Madness Sorcerers on my server doing some crazy numbers on the scoreboard as of late. I imagine that has something to do with the buff to Death Field (aka Force in Balance. I'll stick to the republic terminology).

 

Is it just me, or does the damage on the scoreboard feel meaningless these days? I mean, the damage was always meaningless if you didn't play to win, but it's so damn easy to rack up high numbers. Force in Balance is a very strong ability, part of our single target rotation. Whose idea was it that it should hit 5 targets? What was the purpose?

 

I get that Force Sweep for Knights hits 5 targets as well, but their radius is much shorter and they need to be in melee range themselves. That doesn't justify it, though. I've a Juggernaut and I've tried the different specs. Vigilance and Focus (at level 50) and I did around 2,1k dps with both specs. The difference is that Vigilance is actually quite difficult to play, whereas focus is very forgiving. Focus also have an AoE in the single-target rotation, which ought to make them better than Vigilance... which is broken!!

 

I don't get why some specs gets such strong AoEs in their single target rotations. Or why Bioware decided to buff Force in Balance. Just makes no sense to me.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Majspuffen

[sainik]

More than buffing balance, I think it was an attempt on their part to bring uniformity to all AOE skills (if we think about it, all AOE skills hit 5 targets now, including the slingers grenades for eg). It is the same reason, I guess, why they had to move infiltration tactics to a higher tier in infil tree : they were trying to make all specs adhere to certain design rules they have. All this is fine.

 

But as a consequence they unintentially damaged balance shadows (here I go again ! back to balance shadows). So they need to fix it.

 

Also, because of resource cost reduction in dots, its pretty easy to maintain dots now (I used to struggle to do that as lethality earlier), so its pretty easy to rack up high numbers. Especially as balance (sage or shadow), simply spam dots and FIB and see your damage go up to the top of the score board !

 

Balance sages of course have a lot more utility thats useful to the team, with aoe interrupts in Forcequake and a friendly pull and heals. Balance shadows though, are just dot machines right now.

Edited April 28, 2013 by sainik

[Elyxin]

personally, I've been playing my shadow since 2.0. It's not broke. it doesn't suck. if it's DPS is a bit lower at raid levels (still have yet to see a decent spread of parses to show this btw...only a few smaller parses on test dummies...and we know where that story goes),

 

It does feel less involved. but it's one skill out of the rotation. and while I would pefer a manually triggered ability over the "added DoT Proc" that is Rippling Force, I don't see anything yet that is telling me that the class is horribad because it lost SS out of it's rotation.

 

SO, while there are those veteran players who are missing the SS and lamenting it's loss, I also don't want new players to think that the balance tree isn't worth it. it's still a good tree. it could just use a bit more visible DPS (i.e. personal DPS rather then DPS needing buffs from other classes). that is all.

 

some of you guys are acting like SS was what made balance...and it wasn't. or it shouldn't have been. Bio realized this and cut off our supply to the SS crack...but now they have to adjust things to make the spec something people look forward to again.

 

You know what I miss the most? SS had such a grandiose animation to it. it felt good to trip it and spear the bad guy. Mind crush is a great proc...but it looks so...dinky. you wave your hand, and the mob gets a little sparkly above their head? oooh, my sparkle is soo big....

 

Thats another reason I like project. its big, sounds big and heavy, and in all honesty i liked it when it procced for a double hit, it felt like you were flinging boulders like they were paper mache. i was sort of pissed that infiltration got both project buffs, and the SS buff. they should get one, and we get the other

[Majspuffen]

some of you guys are acting like SS was what made balance...and it wasn't. or it shouldn't have been. Bio realized this and cut off our supply to the SS crack...but now they have to adjust things to make the spec something people look forward to again.

 

Except it was. Balance Shadows never had any protection against dispels, and it was never needed because our melee damage was high enough to make up for the loss of our dots. We're not like Lethality Operatives whose burst is killed if their dots are removed (although they do have dispel protection).

 

For PvE the spec is fine, but boring. Very boring now, and I could never see myself playing it for a longer period of time. The reactive gameplay is gone, and now all I'm doing is staring at dots. It's not fun. For PvP, the spec can net some really amazing numbers. We were always capable of doing that though, but it is actually easier now... but that damage is just AoE splash damage. Our single-target damage is far from lethal. Being more powerful at the 30% mark means bloody nothing in pvp.

 

If Bioware ever sought to make more specs viable for pvp, then they took a huge step backwards with the change to Balance. I loved this spec in 1.7, and I actually played the spec in RWZs. I'm playing on the RP-server the Progenitor, though, and RWZs didn't occur too often, and when they did, they quickly died down. Too small and too hot-headed of a community.

[Ritsugamesh]

If Bioware ever sought to make more specs viable for pvp, then they took a huge step backwards with the change to Balance. I loved this spec in 1.7, and I actually played the spec in RWZs. I'm playing on the RP-server the Progenitor, though, and RWZs didn't occur too often, and when they did, they quickly died down. Too small and too hot-headed of a community.

 

Small world, I play on Progenitor too. Am a Trask original though before the merge.

 

I'd really like to see something really interesting, perhaps a dispel-based proc for a free Spinning Strike past rate limit, to give us something to counter dispel tactics currently about. A burst-capable ability that isn't proccing all the time.

 

Or a stack-based proc where Force Technique (or force moves - might be OP) crits cause a stack of 'x name' to generate, reducing the force cost of Shadow Strike by 20% and increasing the chance of a DoT to be applied by 20%, up to a stack of 5 (or 10% each side for force moves to a stack of 10). That way, it further pushes our ability to work as a DoT class, further helps the melee/force synergy by tying them together in a succinct fashion and provides access to burst that is far enough from being on demand, but available enough that Balance are giving more logic-based gameplay - do you go for a SS at 3 stacks and finish a target or risk missing the DoT, or wait until 5 and use it on the next guy for added burst/pressure?

 

Those are my current contributions anyway.

 

Thinking about it, even something like - Fully consuming 10 stacks of Force Suppression procs a SS that hits as Force Damage and costs 50% less force. Once again, have to apply dots, have to set up the burst and provides meaningful, logic-based gameplay ultimately putting the player more in control of their playstyle, as to a near spectator as it is now.