Considering leaving subscription

[Wargacs]

It's not a natter of cost, it's a matter of attitude. How a company treats its customers.

 

agree with you on this i do...

[TripleMe]

You're paying for access to content. The content did not change. You can everything you did before. But now you won't find as many people to do it with you. Because they're at a higher level you see. So you can still do the level 50 stuff. But everybody else is going to go do the new stuff. Why? Because it's NEW and so many people have already done all of the level 50 stuff. The focus of the game isn't on level 50 anymore? What??? Changes??? OMG SCARY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just stop. Seriously. Stop. Why must you make me do this?

 

Okay. No. You don't have to agree with the decision making. But you also don't have to make a fuss either. Bioware is following industry trends. Look at other MMO's during expansion drop times. Things change alot. It always comes off as whinning and crying because changes were made. People don't like change. You know what, if you don't like the expansion then you don't like change which means you hate Obama and kick puppies. There I said it.

 

Sub is not just for access to content. I bought the game in retail, which is what provides access to the game. My sub pays for server costs AND new content. Well guess what, if I don't buy the expansion, I don't get access to new ops / dailies / etc. So why am I paying a sub to begin with ?

 

As I wrote earlier in the thread, if you are fully free to play like GW2, then if you charge for new content I can completely understand. However, if I pay a sub, then I fully expect to get new ops / wzs etc.

 

I am actually on the fence regarding paying extra for Makeb and levels 51 - 55. I might be okay paying extra for it. But I fully expect to play any ops / dailies etc. And right now not only can I not play S&V, I also cannot play TFB.

 

This game is not free-to-play, it's freemium. And as regards subs they shouldn't pay a cent for that content.

They should have it for free. And to the ones that say it's only 10 dollars. It's not a natter of cost, it's a matter of attitude. How a company treats its customers.

 

Exactly my sentiment. Especially disallowing buying of expansion using Cartel Coins was a classic EA price gouging move. Just allow me to pay for the xpac using 20 USD worth of CCs.

[AlienEyeTX]

After the last few days of madness (respecs, relearning, reimaginating what to do in swtor...) and after taking the time to be 100% sure that if I dont buy the expansion, I dont get to play it or even to level up to 55, I am really, really considering about leaving my subscription.

 

This has nothing to do with the early access discussions as I think that, if you pay for something, you should get what you pay for.

 

In my case, I didnt pay for early access, I dont get it. I payed (and still pay) for a subscription that involved the cap level at 50, and that's what I get. But I dont have to agree with this last part. Being a subscriber should be enough of a reason to get the right to, at least, level up. Even if we were not able to go to Makeb, I would understand, but not like this.

 

I fear that my swtor playing days are over!... Still thinking about it, tough...

 

I think it's fine that people (even subs) who don't buy the expansion cannot reach lvl 55. Afterall, their game has not been expanded.

 

Howvever, I'm a little torn about the fact that this locks them out from end game FPs and such. I think they should have access to those, as a subscriber. Even if they only can do them as a lvl 50. Talk about a challenge!

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Well, I will decide something but its a llittle... strange, is it not? You already pay to play something and now you must pay something more to keep playing while you keep paying what you already did... crazy, to say the least!...

 

I would like to know if there are more people thinking like I am

 

Having to buy the expansion is standard practice for MMOs. Its even been standard practice in many single players games for a while with you paying for the add-ons.

 

If you spend the $10 that will mean that as a subscriber you will get free access to all the new level 55 content that will be added over the next year (when we will probably get the next expansion) and I expect that will include 1-3 new Ops, WZ and probably a FP or two.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

There are games out there that do let you hit cap free or sub. As mentioned, Lotro.

 

Hell, as a sub with DCUO you have access to the DLC packs. This is what I compare Makeb with the only difference being the level cap raised to 55.

 

It's just bad form and a slap in the face to subscribers in my opinion.

 

The DCUO DLCs are tiny. They may be as cheap as RotHC but they are a small number of missions and a few FPs/Raids/WZ.

 

RotHC is far, far bigger than any DCUO DLC.

[AlienEyeTX]

There are games out there that do let you hit cap free or sub. As mentioned, Lotro.

 

Hell, as a sub with DCUO you have access to the DLC packs. This is what I compare Makeb with the only difference being the level cap raised to 55.

 

It's just bad form and a slap in the face to subscribers in my opinion.

 

Well, you could always voice your opinion by going Preferred.

[Kilora]

Having to buy the expansion is standard practice for MMOs. Its even been standard practice in many single players games for a while with you paying for the add-ons.

 

If you spend the $10 that will mean that as a subscriber you will get free access to all the new level 55 content that will be added over the next year (when we will probably get the next expansion) and I expect that will include 1-3 new Ops, WZ and probably a FP or two.

 

/agree!!!

 

I can understand being "upset" if you've never played an MMO before -- but otherwise, c'mon. Stop being ridiculous. All of the major MMOs put out regular expansions -- generally we see a much longer lead time prior to the release, and there is more content, but the price is much heftier.

 

I do feel they should clue us in on how they plan to do things. A smaller "DLC" like RotHC every 6-12 months, with a major boxed expac every 2 years or so would be AMAZING. It's a great way to continuously add in great content, and I WANT to throw them $10 for that "smaller" expac -- because they need to profit for the game to continue.

 

This has nothing to do with attitude. As subscribers -- we're getting it for $10. Everyone else pays $20. Subscribing DOES NOT entitle you to everything they ever release. Most big MMOs ever do this -- reguardless of what business model they follow. They've been playing catch-up since release, and I think RotHC will be the turning point for this game/company -- just hopefully turning in the right direction!

 

Most of the mature fans of the game, and many of the devs and such, are showing a much more positive viewpoint with the release of 2.0/RotHC. This will only continue if we see regular content patches over the next few months. And, the sooner they get out a BIG $40-60 expac with great new offerings (maybe 2 new species, 1/2 new classes?, new storylines, update features, 2-4 new planets, maybe even a redesign of the lower levels) the better.

 

I'm not defending the lack of content being added -- of course I wish there was more. But I'm also realistic in my expectations from a game that had fallen on bad times. If they could afford to have a DEV team the size of WoW, I'm sure we'd be seeing the same size (or bigger) expacs / patches.

[TripleMe]

Having to buy the expansion is standard practice for MMOs. Its even been standard practice in many single players games for a while with you paying for the add-ons.

 

If you spend the $10 that will mean that as a subscriber you will get free access to all the new level 55 content that will be added over the next year (when we will probably get the next expansion) and I expect that will include 1-3 new Ops, WZ and probably a FP or two.

 

The argument that its a standard practice is an Argumentum ad populum or Bandwagon Appeal. The question is why should I need to spend 10 USD as subscriber, when my sub already pays for new content.

[Kilora]

The argument that its a standard practice is an Argumentum ad populum or Bandwagon Appeal. The question is why should I need to spend 10 USD as subscriber, when my sub already pays for new content.

 

It really doesn't matter if you can pull out fancy names for an argument.

 

It is standard BUSINESS practice. Why should they sacrifice making $10/person when giving you new content?

 

Your sub DOES NOT entitle you to every piece of content they ever put out. Standard business practice. If you believe otherwise -- please, show me where it says this is what your sub pays for.

 

Just because you BELIEVE it pays for and entitles you to new content, doesn't make it true. :-D

 

EDIT: This is NOT argumentum ad poplum -- we aren't saying that it is true because we believe it.

 

It is FACT that other MMOs put out expansions that you must pay for. Plenty of games put out DLC that required you to pay for it. FACT. Not opinion or belief -- and we aren't arguing the "morality" of asking people to pay more. We aren't saying they should because others do it. We're saying they DID because others DEFINITELY DO it.

 

Maybe you shouldn't attempt to label things as fallacious without first understanding them.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Kilora

[Thundergulch]

The question is why should I need to spend 10 USD as subscriber, when my sub already pays for new content.

 

Answer: Because that's how it is! Either buy it or don't.

[codycroft]

The argument that its a standard practice is an Argumentum ad populum or Bandwagon Appeal. The question is why should I need to spend 10 USD as subscriber, when my sub already pays for new content.

 

Uhm, in business, the argument, or action, that interests the most and still brings in the most wins. You can cry appeal to popularity all you want, but in this case it is not a logical fallacy. I'm really happy they taught you that in your high school class, or philosophy 101, too bad you're not used to actually applying it.

 

You sub lets you have access to the game with X amount of features. It in no way gives you a right to ANYTHING. If you have a problem with this, go find a game that does what you wish. I so don't understand these public displays of entitlement and tantrums.

[ivelostabomb]

Guys, you missed OP's point.

Update 2.0 and Rise of the Hutt Cartel were not advertised as single package, but instead RotHC as and expansion to existing game and Scum and Villany 2.0 update as next evolution.

If I deciced that I don't want to experience Makeb and the expansion it self, I don't see reason why I should be not allowed to experience regular evolution of the game.

For instance if I only want to level up on dailies from existing content why I cannot levelup that way.

Also, special gear and items could be related ot Makeb only and could be obtained by doing ops, FPs and quests in that area.

Why should I be gimped in game mechanics for deciding not to buy expansion which should not be related to game mechanics but to the content only ?

As pointed out earlier, LoTRo does not gimp you any way from game mechanics if you don't purchase content, it is just harder but still playable and you can purchase content with Turbine points which is same as cartel coins

Edited April 11, 2013 by ivelostabomb

[codycroft]

Guys, you missed OP's point.

Update 2.0 and Rise of the Hutt Cartel were not advertised as single package, but instead RotHC as and expansion to existing game and Scum and Villany 2.0 update as next evolution.

If I deciced that I don't want to experience Makeb and the expansion it self, I don't see reason why I should be not allowed to experience regular evolution of the game.

For instance if I only want to level up on dailies from existing content why I cannot levelup that way.

Also, special gear and items could be related ot Makeb only and could be obtained by doing ops, FPs and quests in that area.

Why should I be gimped in game mechanics for deciding not to buy expansion which should not be related to game mechanics but to the content only ?

As pointed out earlier, LoTRo does not gimp you any way from game mechanics if you don't purchase content, it is just harder but still playable and you can purchase content with Turbine points which is same as cartel coins

 

That is not true at all. I was F2P on LOTRO when Mirkwood came out and you could not access anything about it, since there was a cut screen separating Loth and Mirk. Yes you could spend TP on stuff like though, which I'm sure they'll do with CC here, but not right at release. The thing hasn't even been released yet.

[kirorx]

If you dont want to reach level 55 because you dont want to pay think of this.........

 

 

As permenant level 50....

 

You get the same flashpoints and operations we were doing at 50 before the update and now you can get black hole gear drops with ease.

 

Blamo.....dont pay you just keep doing what you have been enjoying up untill now, you dont lose much...

 

 

PvP is another story because there is no pvp sub 55 armor anymore.

 

------------------

 

If you leave Sub and go to F2P, you will be back....i tried to once just to see....and you cant even use chat, its ridiculous.

[TripleMe]

It really doesn't matter if you can pull out fancy names for an argument.

 

It is standard BUSINESS practice. Why should they sacrifice making $10/person when giving you new content?

 

Your sub DOES NOT entitle you to every piece of content they ever put out. Standard business practice. If you believe otherwise -- please, show me where it says this is what your sub pays for.

 

Just because you BELIEVE it pays for and entitles you to new content, doesn't make it true. :-D

 

I was just pointing out that the argument isn't an argument at all. Just because something is standard business practice is not acceptable. Permit me to Godwin the business practice argument. Human trading was standard business practice for much of human history, that does not make it acceptable. (Yeah its not exactly Godwin, but it has enough of hyperbole to be comparable to Godwin )

 

If my sub doesn't pay for new content, why was EC / TFB / BH / Section X developed ? Why has EA not charged for that ? Out of the goodness of their heart ?

 

Then again, I am *not* asking for Makeb and L51 to 55 for free. I am on the fence on that. I am however asking for new ops / dailies etc at L50. Instead we get TFB taken away from L50.

 

Answer: Because that's how it is! Either buy it or don't.

 

If I buy it (and I probably have to eventually, all my guildies have bought it ), I will unsub for 1 month, use the 4000 cartel coins I have to play the game, and still come out 5 USD ahead.

Edited April 11, 2013 by TripleMe

[ivelostabomb]

That is not true at all. I was F2P on LOTRO when Mirkwood came out and you could not access anything about it, since there was a cut screen separating Loth and Mirk. Yes you could spend TP on stuff like though, which I'm sure they'll do with CC here, but not right at release. The thing hasn't even been released yet.

 

Siege of Mirkwood came out almost a year before F2P, don't lie, and I know because I was in the last wave of lifetimers in August of 2010.

Before that you either pay for subscription or you could purchase lifetime account.

With F2P Enedwaith Region came and new volume of story line. I aggree that initial F2P content was very scarce but in no way it limited you in leveling, it was just harder.

Edited April 11, 2013 by ivelostabomb

[Kilora]

I was just pointing out that your argument isn't an argument at all. Just because something is standard business practice is not acceptable. Permit me to Godwin your business practice argument. Human trading was standard business practice for much of human history, that does not make it acceptable. (Yeah its not exactly Godwin, but it has enough of hyperbole to be comparable to Godwin )

 

If my sub doesn't pay for new content, why was EC / TFB / BH / Section X developed ? Why has EA not charged for that ? Out of the goodness of their heart ?

 

Then again, I am *not* asking for Makeb and L51 to 55 for free. I am on the fence on that. I am however asking for new ops / dailies etc at L50. Instead we get TFB taken away from L50.

 

if I buy it (and I probably have to eventually, all my guildies have bought it ), I will unsub for 1 month, use the 4000 cartel coins I have to play the game, and still come out 5 USD ahead.

 

Maybe you should read my edit. You are wrong -- the argument that many of us posit is NOT fallacious. Fact =\= fallacy. No one is claiming its morality -- as I stated. Whether or not it is "acceptible" is a moot point -- each individual can make that decision for themselves. If you don't agree with it -- leave. Simple as that.

 

LvL 50 is no longer end-game. FACT.

I've yet to see another MMO update non-cap level stuff (with the exception of Cataclysm making minimal changes to the entire world). The majority of MMO players are used to this constant progression -- and actually, it is what I personally enjoy about MMOs as a whole. I'm sure many other MMO players feel the same.

 

You are asking for them to waste money on new content for something that is no longer cap level. This is unprecedented (as far as I know) but I welcome you to bring an actual example of other games that have done that. I KNOW that Cataclysm "changed" the world for everyone -- but we're also talking about the 4th MAJOR expansion to a game. AFAIK they didn't add any Dungeons or Raids anywhere EXCEPT cap-level.

 

Once again -- you are straw-manning. How many times do I have to say "I'm not arguing the morality" of the decision. I don't care if standard business practice != acceptible. Welcome to free markets -- where you really can't make a profit without doing something that someone will inevitably find "unacceptible" or "immoral".

[Kindralla]

Anyone who has played an mmo long term knows that an expansion with a level increase always requires the purchase of said expansion to reap the benefits. Aside from the increadibly awkward early access to an expansion (which, in the very fluid player base of an mmo, is an odd practice), buying RotHC to level to 55 is normal. It is standard practice to patch the mechanics of said expansion first, giving everyone regardless of whether they purchased the expansion all the internal changes. But ************ about how your 15 dollars a month entitles you to lifetime free expansions is just ignorant.

 

 

Now, your subscription does entitle you to small content that comes after the purchase of the expansion, such as a new op here, a new flashpoint there, opening up of a new dailies hub.

 

Cancel your subscription if you like. You won't find it different in any other mmo. If you aren't happy with this practice, then maybe mmos aren't for you.

[TripleMe]

EDIT: This is NOT argumentum ad poplum -- we aren't saying that it is true because we believe it.

 

It is FACT that other MMOs put out expansions that you must pay for. Plenty of games put out DLC that required you to pay for it. FACT. Not opinion or belief -- and we aren't arguing the "morality" of asking people to pay more. We aren't saying they should because others do it. We're saying they DID because others DEFINITELY DO it.

 

We are not arguing AT ALL about whether MMOs do it or not. Of course they do, its well known. The argument was because all MMOs do it, that makes it okay to do it. That is where the bandwagon fallacy appears, that because 20 other MMOs believe it to be RIGHT, that makes it RIGHT.

 

Maybe you shouldn't attempt to label things as fallacious without first understanding them.

 

I couldn't have put it better myself .

 

Uhm, in business, the argument, or action, that interests the most and still brings in the most wins. You can cry appeal to popularity all you want, but in this case it is not a logical fallacy. I'm really happy they taught you that in your high school class, or philosophy 101, too bad you're not used to actually applying it.

 

You sub lets you have access to the game with X amount of features. It in no way gives you a right to ANYTHING. If you have a problem with this, go find a game that does what you wish. I so don't understand these public displays of entitlement and tantrums.

 

My bandwagon appeal point was in response to the argument that since every MMO does it, it is right. This was not about EA's business practice. If you want to call out other people for misapplying their arguments, it would help to actually understand what their argument is.

Edited April 11, 2013 by TripleMe

[Kilora]

We are not arguing AT ALL about whether MMOs do it or not. Of course they do, its well known. Your argument was because all MMOs do it, that makes it okay to do it. That is where the bandwagon fallacy appears, that because 20 other MMOs believe it to be RIGHT, that makes it RIGHT.

 

My bandwagon appeal point was in response to the argument that since every MMO does it, it is right. This was not about EA's business practice. If you want to call out other people for misapplying their arguments, it would help to actually understand what their argument is.

 

PLEASE point me to where I said it was okay? I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth to further your failed argument. I'd also LOVE to see where someone else said it was "acceptible" or "moral" or whatever other term you'd like to use. You seem to LOVE putting words in other peoples mouths, don't you?

 

Oh look -- I'll quote it for you:

Having to buy the expansion is standard practice for MMOs. Its even been standard practice in many single players games for a while with you paying for the add-ons.

 

If you spend the $10 that will mean that as a subscriber you will get free access to all the new level 55 content that will be added over the next year (when we will probably get the next expansion) and I expect that will include 1-3 new Ops, WZ and probably a FP or two.

 

Hmm. Where does he said that it is right? Or acceptible? Seems to me the only thing he's saying is that it is standard practice. Just a hint to you -- that is fact.

 

FOR THE THIRD TIME (at least) -- I am NOT arguing about whether or not it is okay. Don't see anyone else arguing that either. Since there is no such thing as consensus on something like that, anyway -- an argument would be pointless. I'm just as much right as you are -- funny little thing, opinions, aren't they?

 

FACTS:

1.) It is "standard" business practice.

2.) Financially sound decision.

3.) ??

4.) Profit!

 

I'm explaining to you WHY the hell they did it. But you seem to continously look past it. I've explained why they COULDN'T'VE put more into this expac and still released it in April. I'm explaining why ANYONE WITH A BRAIN wouldn't've expected a larger expac this soon into the game. I'm ALSO attempting to explain that, considering it is "normal" and "standard" business practice, you were at fault for expecting anything differently.

 

You don't have to accept it. But you don't have to play the game either. LOGIC tells us they followed a sound business practice. They're increasing profit, and throwing a bone to the players.

[TripleMe]

Maybe you should read my edit. You are wrong -- the argument that many of us posit is NOT fallacious. Fact =\= fallacy. No one is claiming its morality -- as I stated. Whether or not it is "acceptible" is a moot point -- each individual can make that decision for themselves. If you don't agree with it -- leave. Simple as that.

 

The original statement to which I responded was this:

 

Having to buy the expansion is standard practice for MMOs. Its even been standard practice in many single players games for a while with you paying for the add-ons.

 

Which I interpret as "Its acceptable since other MMOs have done it". Is there any other way to interpret this statement ? How do you interpret it ?

 

<snip>

 

Once again -- you are straw-manning. How many times do I have to say "I'm not arguing the morality" of the decision. I don't care if standard business practice != acceptible. Welcome to free markets -- where you really can't make a profit without doing something that someone will inevitably find "unacceptible" or "immoral".

 

Edited for clarity:

Morality is a very strong word tons of implications. I don't know whether any decision is moral or not and definitely not what you think is moral or not. I didn't even respond to your post originally, so I have no idea what you consider as moral or not. I only responded to your argument that I was incorrectly applying Bandwagon appeal logical fallacy.

 

<snip>

FOR THE THIRD TIME (at least) -- I am NOT arguing about whether or not it is okay. Don't see anyone else arguing that either. Since there is no such thing as consensus on something like that, anyway -- an argument would be pointless. I'm just as much right as you are -- funny little thing, opinions, aren't they?

 

FACTS:

1.) It is "standard" business practice.

2.) Financially sound decision.

3.) ??

4.) Profit!

 

I'm explaining to you WHY the hell they did it. But you seem to continously look past it. I've explained why they COULDN'T'VE put more into this expac and still released it in April. I'm explaining why ANYONE WITH A BRAIN wouldn't've expected a larger expac this soon into the game. I'm ALSO attempting to explain that, considering it is "normal" and "standard" business practice, you were at fault for expecting anything differently.

 

You don't have to accept it. But you don't have to play the game either. LOGIC tells us they followed a sound business practice. They're increasing profit, and throwing a bone to the players.

 

I am not arguing any of these points. I accept all your facts as facts. I don't know why repeating anything for the 3rd time will help . I know why EA is charging for the expansion, to make money. I never said I expected a larger expansion. Again, the post to which I responded to which you responded in turn strongly implied that the practice is acceptable because it is standard.

Edited April 11, 2013 by TripleMe

[killmaimburn]

Sub is not just for access to content. I bought the game in retail, which is what provides access to the game. My sub pays for server costs AND new content. Well guess what, if I don't buy the expansion, I don't get access to new ops / dailies / etc. So why am I paying a sub to begin with ?

 

The sub pays for the server upkeep and dev's salaries. The cost of the expansion is to recoup costs of development. They are probably being greedy by releasing this expansion for 10 dollars when it was originally planned as a free update. However, they are a business that is for profit. Somethings you have to let slide in that way.

[Razvus]

Okay. No. You don't have to agree with the decision making. But you also don't have to make a fuss either. Bioware is following industry trends. Look at other MMO's during expansion drop times. Things change alot. It always comes off as whinning and crying because changes were made. People don't like change. You know what, if you don't like the expansion then you don't like change which means you hate Obama and kick puppies. There I said it.

 

I bought a game that is now free-to-play for everyone. The game that I bought, if I want to enjoy it at its full potential, I have to pay a subscription monthly, because otherwise I am given a washed down version of it. Why? Because the game was doing so poorly that they needed to change their whole strategy.

 

Now, even though it was advertised as a free-to-play, enjoy the entire story for free, for everyone, kind of game, I have to buy an expansion to find out what happens next. Why the sudden change? As a subscriber I don't get this. I'm paying monthly because I like this game despite everything being said about it, and my reward is forum access and the privilege of running with Sprint in game (among other things just as outrageous. I think you all know the reaction of the world regarding these restrictions).

 

Why defend this by comparing it with WoW when that game never came close to Swtor in terms of success. (translation, Swtor is continents away from achieving anything WoW did). This is new territory over here, and Swtor is dictating the rules, you can't compare it with any other MMO. WoW never had an issue with free-to-play, it was always what is was, pay for everything.

 

also,

it's ten ####ing dollars, stop being so cheap

 

I think we're well beyond that point in this discussion. Let me put it this way, if someone steals 10 dollars from you, will you react the same way? (obviously, I'm not implying Bioware is stealing anything from us, calm down. I'm trying to prove that it's the principle that matters, not the amount of money involved).

Edited April 12, 2013 by Razvus

[Athan-Won]

Because I see many people saying it's only $10. By the way I am here from its start as many of you.

 

If it's $10 for let's say 400.000 players ( probably a lot more), we are talking about $4.000.000.

And for $4.000.000 basically you get.....one planet.