dookudude Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Who are really the "good guys" in Star Wars? The movies make it out to be the Jedi, but the Jedi have done so much wrong. Plus, not everyone in the Empire is bad. The way I see it, there is no good or bad. It's just any old war, and each side has two different beliefs. By joining the Empire, this doesn't mean that you're cruel and aggressive. You just believe in the Empire's way of doing things, that militaristic society. Same goes for the Republic. Some people in the Republic enjoy killing for fun, as we see in the companions in Swtor. So what do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quellryloth Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 The Jedi are generally good with some instances of fallen, corrupt and otherwise evil people. The Sith are the opposite: they are generally evil with some instances of good. I don't think saying "there is no good or bad" makes any sense here -- if you play through the class stories, the Empire is systematically Evil with a capital E to an almost cartoonish degree. It starts with the Emperor himself (his plan is fully detailed in the Jedi Knight story) and pervades the entire structure from the Dark Council through the rank and file and down to the lowest acolytes and soldiers. There are some good people there and the player can choose to be one of them (mostly -- some stories force your hand), but by and large the Empire is rotten to the core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamTurian Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) I wouldn't necessarily say the Republic are the "good" guys either. They actually plan to, and succeed in doing, some really evil stuff in some of the stories (and sometimes it isn't the player, but high ranking Republic officials, talking about genocide against the Sith, and dooms-day weapons that both sides are creating). Edited April 10, 2013 by IamTurian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARXD Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) Why I enjoy the KOTOR timeline in general, I find that it doesn't feel like morality is being shoved into your face much unlike the films. Instead, it's more realistic in its approach, the fact that the universe is full of shades of grays, not absolutes of black or white. But personally, I find the Jedi hypocrisy to be a much bigger evil than anything displayed by Sith & their "pacifism" is a principled evil IMO. Edited April 10, 2013 by GARXD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZahirS Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 (edited) Its as simple as straight vs gay Good and Evil are defined by the capacity to do good and evil. Republic and Empire are factions, not necesarily Good and Bad, the people are the ones that are good and bad depending on their actions and their impact in the world at large by this I mean the people in either faction can do either good actions or bad actions. Edited April 10, 2013 by ZahirS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 You have to take each person separately. Governments are neither 100% good or 100% bad. There are some that are corrupt and some that try to do what is best for everyone. It's better to take each individual person and figure out what they stand for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rashencyberspeed Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I think the best way to put it is that in this game, the Empire and the Republic are not Black and White. They are Dark Gray and Light Gray. The Empire is evil overall, but there are still plenty of people within it who are good. The Republic, inversely, is good overall, but there are plenty of people within it who are evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chim-Lou Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I know I would rather have the Republic as a neighbour than the Empire. That answers the question for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolventhorne Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Different roads to the same goal. Galactic control. The Republic and Empire both want order. They both want their people to follow a strict structure, and the both have harsh masters to enforce their will. The only difference is that the Empire does it with a scowl, and the Jedi do it with a calm face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoolsErrand Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Different roads to the same goal. Galactic control. The Republic and Empire both want order. They both want their people to follow a strict structure, and the both have harsh masters to enforce their will. The only difference is that the Empire does it with a scowl, and the Jedi do it with a calm face. Well, that's rather simplified, an important thing to mention is how they treat the people there. If you fail your boss in the Republic you might be fired or demoted. If you fail your boss in the Empire you might be SET ON fire. The Empire is a Darwinian group in the extreme, not only is it the strongest survive, but the slightest moment of weakness or carelessness is justification for being killed. It's only positive advantage is it's ability to cut through red tape and answer problems directly, but even then whoever did it better be ready to face the concequences of that action. The Republic isn't an Empire, it's a group of planets that have gathered together for economical security. They share a common currency (which somehow the Empire shares ), laws, and will protect member planents of the Republic when threatened either from outside threats or within. It's greatest weakness is it's bureaucracy which results in it's slowness in responding and risk of political corruption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XantosCledwin Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 (edited) Well, if you get right down to the nitty and gritty of the Jedi Code, you can't really define a Jedi as good or evil, because they categorically reject all emotion as a means of avoiding the "dark" side of the force. Yoda cites love as being one of the factors leading to the dark side. But it remains a fact that a Jedi can fall in love without falling to the temptation of the Dark Side, assuming that they are willing to accept and release their grief at the loss of a loved one in a productive manner instead of a destructive one. That said, most Jedi just assume that love is the enemy of the light side of the force and reject love out of hand. And as has been shown in almost every mythology in the history of the world (Except some Zen Buddhist and Hindu variants) the ability to love is the main sign of a good heart. Love is not the deadly sin according to Dante. Rather that is Lust. If I wanted my good guys to lack emotion out of hand, I would just watch movies composed of nothing but Commander Data or Yuki Nagato Clones as the protagonists (which I admit a large chunk of the Anime I watch features Yuki Nagato Expies, but still), the only anime I liked where the vast majority of the cast lacked any emotion whatsoever, up to the point where it was a driving plot point of the second season, was Darker than Black. Jedi have emotion, even if they mask it, yet they hold a philosophy that renders the ability to call them good or evil utterly futile. They can't even be said to be acting for selfish goals such as protecting loved ones, because they reject the concept of being selfish in general. Their entire reason for being is to protect the Republic, they might as well be super soldiers programed from birth to obey every order the government gives them (oh wait Star Wars has those). Also, I have to ask.... if you had never in your life seen or heard of the original trilogy... and then you watched Star Wars the Phantom Menace through Star Wars the Revenge of the Sith... would you have been able to predict all the horrible things Anakin did? Or that the Chancelor was the Final Boss? I guess the question really boils down to this: Where would you rather live, NAZI Germany (The Empire) or the United States of America around the same time period (The Republic)? And don't answer with "America of course" because America had concentration camps during that War just like Germany did. Only difference is that America didn't gas people that they put into their Concentration Camps. Edited April 11, 2013 by XantosCledwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 (edited) I know I would rather have the Republic as a neighbour than the Empire. That answers the question for me Pretty much the way I look at it. I know the Republic/Rebellion won't kill me if I don't cross my T's and dot my I's. The same can't be said for the Empire. This is based purely on the movies, didn't read, nor did I care to read the books. Edited April 11, 2013 by Pirana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XantosCledwin Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Pretty much the way I look at it. I know the Republic/Rebellion won't kill me if I don't cross my T's and dot my I's. The same can't be said for the Empire. This is based purely on the movies, didn't read, nor did I care to read the books The Empire wouldn't kill you for spelling error's. They might kill you for having the wrong skin or hair color (or in this case being the wrong species all together). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 The Empire wouldn't kill you for spelling error's. They might kill you for having the wrong skin or hair color (or in this case being the wrong species all together). Semantics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XantosCledwin Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 (edited) Semantics. Tell that to Hitler (aka the Emperor). You realize that Star Wars went to massive lengths to compare Emperor Palpatine and the Galactic Empire to Adolph Hitler and the NAZI's? Edited April 11, 2013 by XantosCledwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolventhorne Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Well, that's rather simplified, an important thing to mention is how they treat the people there. If you fail your boss in the Republic you might be fired or demoted. If you fail your boss in the Empire you might be SET ON fire. The Empire is a Darwinian group in the extreme, not only is it the strongest survive, but the slightest moment of weakness or carelessness is justification for being killed. It's only positive advantage is it's ability to cut through red tape and answer problems directly, but even then whoever did it better be ready to face the concequences of that action. The Republic isn't an Empire, it's a group of planets that have gathered together for economical security. They share a common currency (which somehow the Empire shares ), laws, and will protect member planents of the Republic when threatened either from outside threats or within. It's greatest weakness is it's bureaucracy which results in it's slowness in responding and risk of political corruption. I'm going to play some heavy devil's advocate here, just because its fun, so take what I say with a grain of Lot's wife. The Jedi, despite all their reason and "patience" are reckless as all get out. Need proof? How many missions take place in this game where a critical wartime asset is left in the hands of a padawan against a league of Imperial elites (ie, ourselves). They do so because they are being tested. No net, no backup plan, and TONS of horrific consequences for failure. The Jedi are knowingly throwing padawan's to their deaths. I understand that padawans must prove themselves, that makes perfect sense. What fails to make sense is why they choose objectives that cost the republic SO MUCH when the padawan's fail? It seems their interest in maintaining their Jedi traditions heavily outweigh the greater good of the Republic. The times when you see someone is killed by a fellow Imperial happens when someone botches the job despite having a massive quantity of resources at hand. Their death is quick and doesn't put the lives of the rest of the Empire at risk. Sith vs. Sith ascension does take an aside to this arguement, but their internal conflicts rarely pull in civilians into the crossfire. The Jedi...ehhhh..not so much when you stand back and look at the big picture. So while on the surface, the Empire may seem like the more brutal of the two factions, what we're seeing is a sharp protection of assets and civilians vs. constant reckless gambling of assets and civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XantosCledwin Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I'm going to play some heavy devil's advocate here, just because its fun, so take what I say with a grain of Lot's wife. The Jedi, despite all their reason and "patience" are reckless as all get out. Need proof? How many missions take place in this game where a critical wartime asset is left in the hands of a padawan against a league of Imperial elites (ie, ourselves). They do so because they are being tested. No net, no backup plan, and TONS of horrific consequences for failure. The Jedi are knowingly throwing padawan's to their deaths. I understand that padawans must prove themselves, that makes perfect sense. What fails to make sense is why they choose objectives that cost the republic SO MUCH when the padawan's fail? It seems their interest in maintaining their Jedi traditions heavily outweigh the greater good of the Republic. The times when you see someone is killed by a fellow Imperial happens when someone botches the job despite having a massive quantity of resources at hand. Their death is quick and doesn't put the lives of the rest of the Empire at risk. Sith vs. Sith ascension does take an aside to this arguement, but their internal conflicts rarely pull in civilians into the crossfire. The Jedi...ehhhh..not so much when you stand back and look at the big picture. So while on the surface, the Empire may seem like the more brutal of the two factions, what we're seeing is a sharp protection of assets and civilians vs. constant reckless gambling of assets and civilians. Jaesa herself is the embodiment of the recklessness of the Jedi. Here she is, a padawan with limited (at best) combat training, and what does she do? Defy orders, ignore her superior's commands, and charge headlong into combat against superior numbers and a better combatant all on her own. The fact that she manages to live no matter which choice you make (Light or Dark) is a bloody miracle that defies all logic. On the plus side, at least the Jedi don't thrust younglings into combat against fully battle hardened Sith Warriors. By Younglings I mean kids the age Anakin was when Qui Gon found him, or younger. The Jedi start their training at an incredibly early age, afterall Anakin was too old to start the training according to the Jedi Counsel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philastra Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Neither is good or evil the force doesn't have sides, but both sides are trying to push their own agendas, Republic/Council under the premise of GOOD is pushing the way they think it should be and are not always upfront about the reasons behind certain decisions, as far as Empire/Sith you pretty much know what your gettn with these guys, the also have an agenda that they are pushing through strong arm techniques, The only ppl i'd say that where good in SW where the moisture farmers:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 No good, therefor no evil. What we have is shades of grey.... Around 50 of them (sorry, I had to. I appologise) The republic have done despicable things... They're the reason the empire want revenge, not one will corrupt man, not some warmonger, but the ENTIRE galactic senate voted to send Jedi (who willingly went) and republic troops to destroy what was left of the sith after the great hyperspace war. That's like, well, imagine the allies killing every German after WW2, horrific, despicable, and dame right as bad as the sith/nazi's to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smartalectwo Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 (edited) The republic have done despicable things... They're the reason the empire want revenge, not one will corrupt man, not some warmonger, but the ENTIRE galactic senate voted to send Jedi (who willingly went) and republic troops to destroy what was left of the sith after the great hyperspace war. That's like, well, imagine the allies killing every German after WW2, horrific, despicable, and dame right as bad as the sith/nazi's to begin with. Worth bearing in mind that 'The Republic', 'The Jedi', and 'The Empire' of then are absolutely not the Republic, the Jedi and the Empire of now. No-one was alive then that is now, with the exception of a few individuals on the Imperial side. It's hard to blame, say, modern-day France for the warlike ambitions of Napoleon. The Republic is a very weak central government. It's like an intergalactic European Union, a vast collection of independent systems that choose to interlock their combined political, financial and military structures for mutual benefit. As a result, the Republic changes a lot with the times, and since the days of the Great Hyperspace War; it's rebuilt itself and come back from disasters often. The Jedi are even more different. Their Order was driven to near extinction during the events of KOTOR 1 and 2, and the Jedi of SWTOR are nothing like the Jedi of the Hyperspace War era. They were a nomadic, scattered Order of mavericks that only united in times of great trouble back in the day, not the centralised, disciplined Order they seemed to have become by the time of SWTOR. Even the Jedi Code has undergone rewrites since then. The Empire could be considered wrong, therefore, to direct their hate against 'the Republic and the Jedi', but that's the way totalitarian states work - they distract their people from the harsh nature of their lives by getting them to focus on an outside enemy. Classic Orwell's 1984 stuff. The Emperor pretty much built the Empire with the purpose of one day crushing the galaxy; promoting hate for the Republic and the Jedi is just one of the tools he used. Edited April 11, 2013 by smartalectwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Oh I know My point was just one of the many things the republic has done, and whilst you can say "So and so doesn't make the republic bad because it was only some people," the same can be said for what makes them good. It's not just a Republic - Good, Empire - Bad thing that Star Wars has got goin on, it's a very mixed and ever changing balance, with the underlying level of "This is generally bad"-ness of the empire. Hell I'd go so far to say there is no good side, if I wasn't a believer in the argument there is no good without evil and vice versa.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirana Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Tell that to Hitler (aka the Emperor). You realize that Star Wars went to massive lengths to compare Emperor Palpatine and the Galactic Empire to Adolph Hitler and the NAZI's? Could care less. Still doesn't change the fact I would rather have the Republic/Rebellion as allies, not the Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbineaction Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 id have to say that there is defenitly a lot of gray but what it really comes down to is the empire's rulers are evil and the republic's leader's just want the best for their republic. but most of the population is just caught in the cross fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seireeni Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 A quote from Wookieepedia's quotes, originally stated by Thrawn: I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead. So, if there wouldn't be a war going on, the thing would imo pretty much down to how acceptable morality the leaders of the either side are. Sidious happens to be pretty nasty guy, so people in the Empire can do pretty nasty things and get away with it. Put a pretty nasty guy to lead the Rebels/Republic/New Republic and there will be people doing pretty nasty stuff and getting away with it. Democracy is Republic's answer to this, if the guy in charge is a bad guy, he can be removed, but it also means that it's hard to get things done. Whatever you try to decide, someone will be against it and make a big fuzz out of it. You think "evil" stuff couldn't be done by Republic's people? Well, in Outbound Flight jedi master Jorus C'baoth starts treating non-jedi people in a pretty cruel way, but none of the jedi onboard try to effectively stop him. A few try to do a little, but no one feels like C'baoth shoulb be removed from the position of the leader of Outbound Flight. In fact, in the end fight of Outbound Flight, if we count out the third party that joins, I actually do think that the jedi and Republic are the bad guys. That's because C'baoth's morality is much less acceptable than Thrawn's or Doriana's. All the people aboard the Outbound Flight were not bad, but they followed a leader that made many "evil" decisions. Even when Doriana decides to kill the people inside Outbound Flight to save Thrawn, I can't say he would be evil - he's kind of just in war, and in war, a life of a potential ally means more than life of multiple enemies. I mean, if someone would destroy a Star Destroyer full of Imperials to save Luke Skywalker, would that be evil? So, both sides are kind of gray, but in the other side, evil guys got the power and in the other side they don't. Ps. What side I think is the best? EMPIRE OF THE HAND FTW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazengan Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 (edited) It really isn't that deep Bioware tries hard to portray a gray situation but at the end it is good vs evil It's not even done right too The empire isn't affably evil, it's stupid evil. They murder civilians, they enslave people, they hate aliens. They do stupid things because they are "evil". I hate the empire both in-game and in the context of writing. The Empire is stupid and does not deserve to exist because it's entire concept is the definiiton of failure. I always select dialogue choices that kill imperials Edited April 15, 2013 by Lazengan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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