Watchman Sentinels, not snipers, should have the +30 levels of stealth detection

[jolleebindu]

This would be pretty unfair. A sentinel is a mobile melee spec, you could easily spin round in circles and get a 30m range stealth scan. Snipers get it because it builds up over time while they are in cover, meaning they can still be stealthed by the sides and the back. A mobile Sentinel gaining a stealth scan would plain and simply be stupid.

 

and this^^

 

and of all of the classes, shouldn't there be more than 1 that would be the "counter-class" to another? - wouldn't exactly seem fair if you can easily beat all of the other classes but one

[ripamorame]

Right on dood. I forgot that Snipers are not already pretty desired in 2.0, and everyone wants Watchman spec'ed Sentinels on their team.

 

Do you even lift?

 

It's not like everyone's rolling snipers because they are going to be the best class or anything seen as their hard counter has been countered or anything.

[PerinnAybara]

If it takes juyo stacks, them how would it help you while you're dormant guarding a node?

 

Snipers have proactive defenses, if you get passed the leap immunity, then they're toasted. Since stealthers can do so, snipers need yet another proactive defense against them.

 

Don't snipers have a knockback? Also can't they make themselves immune to interrupt/cc at the same time? And can't they put up a aoe shield that reduces damage to everything around them. And can't they use area denial to make anyone pay for coming up and close (orbital strike). Don't they have a 30m aoe flash grenade they could use to relocate if necessary? Or legshot to keep people far away after they knockback if necessary?

 

I shouldn't play a merc. All I hear from snipers is whine whine whine, it's okay, because as soon as they finally get through everything and finally "walk" up to us, we're dead.

 

Yeah, right.

[JackNader]

Don't snipers have a knockback? Also can't they make themselves immune to interrupt/cc at the same time? And can't they put up a aoe shield that reduces damage to everything around them. And can't they use area denial to make anyone pay for coming up and close (orbital strike). Don't they have a 30m aoe flash grenade they could use to relocate if necessary? Or legshot to keep people far away after they knockback if necessary?

 

I shouldn't play a merc. All I hear from snipers is whine whine whine, it's okay, because as soon as they finally get through everything and finally "walk" up to us, we're dead.

 

Yeah, right.

 

Pretty much.

 

2.0 also had the sniper trees shifted around a bit. I am pretty sure that Ballistic dampeners is now a first tier talent and also the passive self heal was taken from operatives and given to snipers while in cover. Also, their 20% dr shield they put up doesn't disappear when you've knocked them out of cover like it does on live. I am expecting snipers to be extremely problematic. In fact for rateds, I am pushing for 2 engineering snipers in the team lineup and simply having your healers stand between them for absolutely stupid amounts of mitigation and extreme damage. Pretty much if you do this, your healers aren't going to die... EVER.

[TheCourier-]

I was about to say the same thing to you. Change gives some sort of counter play for snipers who by their nature are self rooting and therefore very vulnerable to snipers.

 

Sentinels are already pretty desired in 2.0. I don't feel this is needed at all.

 

Almost no one will want a sentinel on their ranked WZ team other than combat for transcendence.

[TheCourier-]

Remember another move is being added, Twin Saber Throw.

 

Twin saber throw is almost useless. It only does around 4000 damage on the PTS, and has a long CD for an offensive attack. 4000 damage is light damage when most people have around 30000 health.

 

I recommend adding a cauterize style dot to twin saber throw for watchman spec, that does 3500 damage over 6 seconds.

Edited April 4, 2013 by TheCourier-

[PerinnAybara]

Never knew 4000 was light damage, even if they do have 30000 health. Too used to playing a smasher aren't you.

[TheCourier-]

Slash does around 3000 damage on the PTS. Don't assume that smash spec is the only spec that I play. I've used watchman a tremendous amount. I have the highest damage dealt by a sentinel on the Jedi Covenant server, and I used watchman spec to do that.

 

Twin saber throw barely does more damage than slash.

Edited April 4, 2013 by TheCourier-

[ArchangelLBC]

Twin saber throw gives you a 30m cap stopper that can be used on anyone (no more being unable to stop people in cover when further than 10m out), slows anyone it hits on the way, is completely resource free, and is on what a 30s cooldown?

 

Yeah my heart bleeds for you guys. It's supposed to be something extra, not a new main source of damage. Only chance I could see is if it granted 2-3 focus as well, but otherwise that ability is just fine.

 

Almost no one will want a sentinel on their ranked WZ team other than combat for transcendence.

 

No one wants a commando for ANYTHING on a ranked warzone team, so again, my heart bleeds for you.

 

Snipers are going to be desired but you aren't going to be stacking more than two and I'm not even sure about that, they just have too many mobility issues even with the roll (which, can they roll if you root them? I know it sounds silly to blow a root on a sniper, but combat can root them for 9 seconds straight).. Combat's damage is going to become better than on live with the death of bubble stuns and the reproc on Precision Slash, and between a much higher accuracy from talent, 100% Armor Penetration with PS, and a proc'd Auto Crit to blade storm (I know it got nerfed, but 30% proc from an ability you spam anyway is nothing to sneeze at), are going to be very viable tank killers. Smash is going to be somewhat less desired, but then there's that auto crit to consider.

Edited April 4, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[TheCourier-]

Watchman spec didn't need another slow. Watchman spec needed it's ridiculously long ramp-up time made much faster. A watchman sentinel has to be in combat for around 40 seconds in order to get 4 stacks of merciless. Most fights are over in less than 10 seconds. Edited April 4, 2013 by TheCourier-

[ArchangelLBC]

Watchman spec didn't need another slow. Watchman spec needed it's ridiculously long ramp-up time made much faster. A watchman sentinel has to be in combat for around 40 seconds in order to get 4 stacks of merciless. Most fights are over in less than 10 seconds.

 

Yep, it's pretty much exclusively a PVE spec. Considering TK sages and Gunnery Commandos have been told for months and months to roll Balance/Assault, which in commando's case wasn't even necessarily viable, and I'm not sure that was true for Balance sages in ranked either if we're honest, I'm just hard up to have any sympathy for you. Everything about it is a sustained DPS spec and not as much of a bursty one, and there's really nothing wrong with that.

 

If the spec was worthless in both parts of the game that'd be different, but the solution is for you to roll combat or focus.

Edited April 4, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[NoTomorrow]

As a sniper i don't really care who has the stealth detection, but i don't like stealth scan. I always wanted a class, be it whatever class to be the one capable to hunt down and shutdown stealthers, just like snipers can shut down melee and stealthers can shut down snipers.

[Caeliux]

It will be good against people that don't cleanse, and that don't have snipers on their team.

 

Good luck finding that in 2.0

 

You act like every team is good with cleanse or something.

 

I have heard that excuse of cleanse before, but when you have a gunslinger adding dots and a watchman, the damage continues.

 

I play watchman, and it takes lots of peel and another healer backing that healer I am locking on, the amount of damage I apply in that short amount of time is good enough.

 

No its not focus omg smash burst for 8k, and that isn't what watchman is suppose to be doing.

 

Let me explain WHY watchman/annihilation will suck in 2.0. Currently our dots hit like trucks, which means when we have a problem with being kited, rooted? We are still doing a lot of damage. In 2.0 that changes. Dot's are taking a big hit and we are more tied to our annihilate talent. The problem is that it simply takes too long to build, and out dot's can be cleansed until then.

 

Where do you get this math I ask, you played a bugged to hell PTS?

 

Nobody is playing 2.0 yet, everything is assumptions and biased and most people thinks including yourself only combat and focus is the way to go do to the instant crit from both, and yes combat is more useful, but I think Watchman is a better lock down on a healer and poses more of a threat burning one down than combat and focus.

 

The rest of your post swings thinking combat and focus is the only tree, I disagree.

 

you only get to choose 1 of the 4-set bonuses, so no 14% bonus damage.

 

Yea I messed up on that.

 

Twin saber throw is almost useless. It only does around 4000 damage on the PTS, and has a long CD for an offensive attack. 4000 damage is light damage when most people have around 30000 health.

 

4000 damage is useless?

 

Another range move is useless?

 

Another way to kill you when trying to kite me is useless?

 

More damage is useless?

 

And for the love of god you guys stop with this "WELL ON THE PTS IT DID THIS, SO I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT".

 

You can't believe nothing coming outta a PTS, nothing.

[ArchangelLBC]

I dunno, unless otherwise stated you can't assume anything will be significantly different from the PTS either, though certainly I hope bolster is fixed.

[Atramar]

I dunno, unless otherwise stated you can't assume anything will be significantly different from the PTS either, though certainly I hope bolster is fixed.

 

Amen to that.

I can stand the thought of pvping naked, specially with my fem body type 3 guardian

[Caeliux]

I dunno, unless otherwise stated you can't assume anything will be significantly different from the PTS either, though certainly I hope bolster is fixed.

 

Bolster will be changing everything in 2.0, far as all "well in pts" opinions, let me tell you about it.

 

People didn't get any calculations from actual PvP with specs, reason for that was the pts was bugged from the new bolster system.

 

People was dueling each other and using test dummies to get math, what is wrong with that is that is not real PVP and isn't live.

 

You can beat something standing still all you want and try to get a idea, fact is in the hands of a person actually PvPing things change, damage changes, everything changes.

 

There is videos of a bunch of bugged crap going on in 2.0 PTS, here is one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC2VodalFbE

 

Reason I am applying this info is in this thread alone people are saying watchman isn't going to be any good because it was not good in a pts.

 

Soon as you see someone say pts, shoot it down.

 

PTS was not live!

 

Far as the topic at hand, sents don't need stealth detection, i do think healers do though. It would of been cool if they gave sage a force move where they can uncover stealth.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Caeliux

[TheCourier-]

Yep, it's pretty much exclusively a PVE spec. Considering TK sages and Gunnery Commandos have been told for months and months to roll Balance/Assault, which in commando's case wasn't even necessarily viable, and I'm not sure that was true for Balance sages in ranked either if we're honest, I'm just hard up to have any sympathy for you. Everything about it is a sustained DPS spec and not as much of a bursty one, and there's really nothing wrong with that.

 

If the spec was worthless in both parts of the game that'd be different, but the solution is for you to roll combat or focus.

 

TK sage got buffed, and gunnery was viable on the PTS. Gunnery is actually very strong in 2.0. Gunnery only has to use 1 grav round, then demolition round, then high impact bolt. Gunnery is no longer required to spam 3 grav rounds in a row.

[ArchangelLBC]

Without significant changes to the actual skill tree, fixed bolster and other bugs aren't gonna change the incredibly long ramp up time of watchman for full damage, nor change the lack of DoT protection the spec has. You don't need to see it live to know how big a problem either of those are in a PVP environment.

 

Your insistence on disregarding EVERYTHING from PTS just because SOME THINGS can be disregarded is just silly. Do I expect going naked to be better than wearing War Hero and Elite War Hero gear when it goes live? No I expect they'll fix it. Do I expect Watchman to be suddenly viable? No not really.

[DroidDreamer]

Not sure if this post is trolling but if it's not it's pretty comical. You play a class that gets:

 

--Predation -- increased movement speed for you and your buddies

--99% DR making you impossible to kill for three to five seconds

--AOE mezz

--A temporary stealth ability that causes your enemies to lose you as a target but does not break them out of combat.

--*smash**smash**smash**smash**smash**smash**smash**smash**smash*

--Autocrits for smash

--An easy rotation

--Leaps and all the other offensive tools of the class.

 

And on top of all that you want MORE utility in the form of stealth detection? Play another class for a while. Most people who start with other classes and then move to yours find it laughably easy.

[Floplag]

Newsflash to Sents / Maras... you do not need every ability in the game

Thank you

Every other class in the game

[Caeliux]

Without significant changes to the actual skill tree, fixed bolster and other bugs aren't gonna change the incredibly long ramp up time of watchman for full damage, nor change the lack of DoT protection the spec has.

 

What ramp up are you talking about, most classes have a build up on damage, and depending on that player and team comp it is in the hands of the player not the class.

 

I have seen terrible players play watchman, and then I have seen some that are darn right unstoppable when they have heals.

 

Do I expect Watchman to be suddenly viable? No not really

 

It has always been viable, it depends who is driving the car.

 

Some people have this train of thought that watchman isn't viable cause they can be cleansed, fact is there is ways to use a watchman sent where it really effective in a team comp build around it.

 

The added slow to watchman will make it even more of a lock down on a healer, I also don't see where the damage will be less for watchman, where is this math facts of it being less at?

 

Where is any proof that it can't work?

 

If people are assuming things from pts then that isn't good enough.

 

I also think people are biased vs watchman due to focus smash hitting so hard, and then combat being picked overall due to the skills it possesses.

 

I think in right hands watchman is the most dangerous spec in the game.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Caeliux

[Werdan]

Newsflash to Sents / Maras... you do not need every ability in the game

Thank you

Every other class in the game

 

QFE

I've played marauder, assassin, guardian, Merc/commando and sniper to 50 and by far the most complete class for me has been mara followed by sin. Between the mobility, the defensive and offensive capabilities, the last thing it needs is another way to be arguably the best (if not, tied for second) overall class in the game. Try playing a Merc for a while. Having played and tested one in beta for 6 months before launch, it's been in need of loving for a long time. Snipers are good but are prone to stealth more than any other class in the game due to the cover system. While it looks like they are getting a little love in 2.0, it wouldn't surprise me if they stay stabilized over the next couple of combat passes.

[ArchangelLBC]

TK sage got buffed, and gunnery was viable on the PTS. Gunnery is actually very strong in 2.0. Gunnery only has to use 1 grav round, then demolition round, then high impact bolt. Gunnery is no longer required to spam 3 grav rounds in a row.

 

Actually, to buff HiB you're still going to need to cast Grav Round three times in a row, and the changes didn't really address the problems with the class. It's no more ranked viable than it is on live. Will do slightly better in regs against players who can't properly use the new toys, will still get pretty easily shut down by people who know what they're doing. Meanwhile assault is dead and buried.

 

What ramp up are you talking about, most classes have a build up on damage, and depending on that player and team comp it is in the hands of the player not the class.

 

I have seen terrible players play watchman, and then I have seen some that are darn right unstoppable when they have heals.

 

 

 

It has always been viable, it depends who is driving the car.

 

Some people have this train of thought that watchman isn't viable cause they can be cleansed, fact is there is ways to use a watchman sent where it really effective in a team comp build around it.

 

The added slow to watchman will make it even more of a lock down on a healer, I also don't see where the damage will be less for watchman, where is this math facts of it being less at?

 

Where is any proof that it can't work?

 

If people are assuming things from pts then that isn't good enough.

 

I also think people are biased vs watchman due to focus smash hitting so hard, and then combat being picked overall due to the skills it possesses.

 

I think in right hands watchman is the most dangerous spec in the game.

 

 

LOL ok. Let me know how many ranked teams start running watchman sents.

 

You're pretty delusional dude.

Edited April 4, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[biowareftw]

Bolster will be changing everything in 2.0, far as all "well in pts" opinions, let me tell you about it.

 

People didn't get any calculations from actual PvP with specs, reason for that was the pts was bugged from the new bolster system.

 

People was dueling each other and using test dummies to get math, what is wrong with that is that is not real PVP and isn't live.

 

You can beat something standing still all you want and try to get a idea, fact is in the hands of a person actually PvPing things change, damage changes, everything changes.

 

There is videos of a bunch of bugged crap going on in 2.0 PTS, here is one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC2VodalFbE

 

Reason I am applying this info is in this thread alone people are saying watchman isn't going to be any good because it was not good in a pts.

 

Soon as you see someone say pts, shoot it down.

 

PTS was not live!

 

Far as the topic at hand, sents don't need stealth detection, i do think healers do though. It would of been cool if they gave sage a force move where they can uncover stealth.

 

1) You lost all credibility when you said we would now have 10 percent damage on charge, when we already use guardian/jug dps mods/armoring in live for that bonus. I fail to believe you have ever even played this class, let alone watchman/annihilation. If you do and you are wearing the sentinel pvp set? Well you have just become the laughingstock of this board.

 

2) The reasons Watchman/annihilation will suck in pvp have nothing to do with a test dummy. No one ever questioned if the spec would be good in pve. This is the pvp forum.

 

3) We have already explained WHY this spec will be worse off in 2.0 in detail, and it has to do with a higher ramp up time, weaker dots, no dot protection, and many classes getting more escapes. We all said the spec was broken (for pvp) as soon as we saw the new talent trees. You counter this with rambling about test dummies...

 

4) Vigilance Jug will be so stupidly better then annihilation as non smash dps, that anyone playing watchman/annhilation should get the masochist title. Same goes with a marauder/sent playing rage/focus on anything but a Jug/guardian. 30 second cooldown on a smash crit, that is lowered with every ability, more str, dmg bonus to ravage, more force dmg (so they hit harder), can push snipers out of cover (new fotm). Oh yeah and they can aoe taunt and can separate a healer from guard with a push, and knock people off bridges and one shot them, AND aoe slow for no rage cost.

 

Oh yeah I forgot. When you see a sniper loading up an ambush on you? You can spell reflect ambush, the bomb and the follow through, and watch the new FOTM sniper damn near kill himself...

 

5) We have been completely pigeonholed into carnage in 2.0. Those who like playing the spec are keeping their sent/marauders. Those who don't? Have already made snipers/jugs. I have said it a million times, but the 80 percent group speed talent needs to go, or be changed to like 60-70 percent passive. Annihilation had it first and playing anything but annihilation in group pvp was stupid. Now playing anything but carnage/combat is stupid. The talent is simply too gamechanging. It is as bad as bubblestun (which is being removed from the game). Speccing anything else atm is simply stupid.

 

Summary. If you like combat/carnage on a sent/marauder? Make one, or keep yours. If you like the other 2 trees? Make a jug/guardian this weekend.

 

If raiding is your thing? Watchman/annihilation is an excellent spec. Then again? If you like raiding, you probably wouldn't be in the pvp forum to begin with.

Edited April 4, 2013 by biowareftw

[Caeliux]

LOL ok. Let me know how many ranked teams start running watchman sents.

 

You're pretty delusional dude.

 

Whats delusional is you and others thinks with a one track mind, and think there is only one traditional way to make a team comp in ranked.

 

Some of you need to think outside the box and mix it up, being biased about a spec don't make that spec less or more.

 

In the hands of a great player any spec can work, in a group of 8 good players most team comps can work.

 

Games don't get won by classes or specs, they get won by teamwork and skill.

Now playing anything but carnage/combat is stupid. The talent is simply too gamechanging. It is as bad as bubblestun (which is being removed from the game). Speccing anything else atm is simply stupid.

 

You might think its stupid, I disagree on it not being viable in a team comp.

 

Your being biased about it.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Caeliux