The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 03: Lord Vitiate vs. Darth Plagueis

[Wolfninjajedi]

Sorry I mean likely.

 

Ah....mmk, though I dunno.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Ventessel]

That's merely what I was implying. And yes they were set back, but they had several hundred years to recover. However this largely irrelevant, my point is that those 8000 Sith are likely to be fairly standard/weak. The dark side simply doesn't work well with numbers, because simply put, unlike the Jedi the Sith do not share. Its a dog eat dog world.

That argument is purely nonsensical. That infighting of their order weakens them as an institution and causes them to be more vulnerable to external threats (i.e. the Jedi, Republic). However, "the dark side" is not some mystical pie that each Sith takes a slice of. Power is accumulated and lost individually, the Force is not a zero sum game.

In my books Revan + Meetra + Scourge = Vitiate and the Hero of Tython > Vitiate. Powerful bursts of energy can break Vitiate's defenses, his lightning can be blocked, absorbed and redirected, his Force storms can be endured and his illusions can be dispelled. He is by no means invincible, far from it.

That kind of simplistic analysis is also irrational. A > B > C logic cannot be applied to these confrontations, for various reasons, including the asymmetric nature of most confrontations. A "pure" test of two characters abilities against a single standard could provide a basis for analysis, but instances of this are rare to nonexistent. Even then, such information would only be a single piece of the equation.

Given this information and given the abilities and power Plagueis possess I reckon he is strong enough to defeat the Emperor however he cannot do this by powering through. He needs wit and guile to exploit the Emperor's weaknesses, and being a cerebral Sith Lord he has much of that.

Plagueis is powerful, but by no means overwhelmingly so.

Plagueis is certainly more powerful than Revan.

You just felt the need to throw out an irrational statement for the sake of provocation?

What? Where was this stated?

Yeah, Plagueis, more powerful than the Chosen One? Get real.

 

On top of all this, the entire premise for considering Plagueis to be such a strong Sith Lord is because he's near the tail end of the rule of two. Now, even assuming that the rule of two provides a linear increase in individual power with the Force (which is a premise I do not accept), but assuming that to be true...

 

You have a thousand years of linear progression for the Rule of Two... Vitiate has a thousand years of linear progression FOR HIMSELF. So, by the logic of the Rule of Two... Vitiate should be on par with Sidious (a fractional step behind him, since Sidious is confirmed to be the strongest.. but not by how much).

[Darkondo]

Force lightning, Force storm, its more or less the same thing I expect it was all fuel to the fire. However I'd also assume he has some measure of, if not complete, control over the storm, so if he was incapacitated the storm would likely end. Nor did the storm encompass the entire area, only a strip in front of him. I'd expect he'd need additional time to conjure a larger storm, time Plagueis would not give him. In fact in the time it took for Vitiate to summon that storm Plagueis could already have knocked him back with a Force wave, ending it before it even began.

 

Also notice the storm had no effect on the Hero of Tython, who ran right threw it. Forcing Vitiate to throw lightning at him to push him back. Plagueis is arguably of similar caliber, or at least far stronger than Tol Braga, so I'd assume he would be able to do the same, or at least be able to resist the storm to a far better degree. Which, may I note, only immobilized the Knights, not the Hero of Tython and the Master.Is it? Perhaps... but lets remember Plagueis is extremely powerful and more powerful than Vader, he will also be empowered by Vitiate's lightning. Its only a matter of concentration and I'd assume, being a Muun and a scholar, he'd have a lot of that.

Arrogance does not always equal stupidity, as I said Plageuis will quickly become aware of the magnitude of Vitiate's power and perhaps reconsider that assumption. Or at least play a safer game, especially since he is wearing a transpirator, with that in mind trying to catch Vitiate's lightning would be kinda dumb.

 

The storm covering the strip in front of him is somewhat moot as that strip was where all the jedi were and that strip was also the only ground that the jedi could have gone through to reach him, however i see your point and that is plausible, a bit of speulation, but plausible.

 

What good is absorbing Vitiate's power if hes becoming overwhelmed by it and cant use it. Also yes arrogance does not equal stupidity but what does Vitiate show besides his initial stream of lightning (which could destroy Vitiate) that would make Plagueis reconsider the assuption that he is not the most powerful force user? Vitiate's mind control? Perhaps, but that just shows Plagueis that he is a powerul telepath and if Plagueis can resist it then he has no reason to believe that he cannot overpower Vitiate through the force, and if he cannot resist mind control then he has already lost (but im assuming he can, obviously).

 

As such Plagueis has no reason to believe that Vitiate is stronger than him. So when Vitiate does send a stream of lightning at him, hes going to believe himself the stronger and use tutamis. And as I have said before that will be the beginning of the end for him. I do not believe he will be able to break the lock that will inevitably destroy him without putting significant risk on damaging his transpirator.

 

Also Plagueis being stronger than Vader is debatable, he does match up well with his jar-kai saber form, however that might be it and that is a discussion for another time.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Darkondo

[Aurbere]

Sorry I mean likely.

 

During the set-up process for this tournament, I had considered pairing up Plagueis with Vader.

 

I also considered putting Vader against Vitiate, but then we would have had the whole lightning>Vader (which I don't feel like getting into).

 

^Don't respond to that. Save it for another time.

 

Now, We have been dealing quite a bit with the Force lightning that Vitiate uses against the Hero at the end of Act 2. As exciting as that is, I feel that we could go on in circles with it. We should remember that, no matter how Vitiate uses his lightning, if the battle is pushed into one of the corridors of the Lodge, it is likely that Plagueis will be hit by it, or forced to defend against it.

 

So let me address environmental advantages. Vitiate has the advantage in the corridors of the Lodge, but Plagueis has the advantage in the more open areas. However, Vitiate's lightning storms are such that he could cover a vast portion of any large room.

 

However, we should also remember that they aren't face to face. So Plagueis could attack when he has the advantage, and vice-versa.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Aurbere

[Kaedusz]

 

I also considered putting Vader against Vitiate

This is absurd and surrealistic for me.

Where does this Vader adulation come from?He is the chosen one,which means he is a powerful being in his own right even in the suit ,more powerful than most.

But against Vitiate, and Plagueis,out of the question.This would not be even a fair competition.

 

I

Edited April 3, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Wolfninjajedi]

This is absurd and surrealistic for me.

Where does this Vader adulation come from?He is the chosen one,which means he is a powerful being in his own righ ,more powerful than many.

But against Vitiate, and Plagueis,out of the question.This would not be even a fair competition.

 

I

 

It would be, he has the feats and powers to take on a number of opponents. But anyway, back on track here with this.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

That argument is purely nonsensical. That infighting of their order weakens them as an institution and causes them to be more vulnerable to external threats (i.e. the Jedi, Republic). However, "the dark side" is not some mystical pie that each Sith takes a slice of. Power is accumulated and lost individually, the Force is not a zero sum game.

*shrug* this is a detraction from the debate, but I will say that understanding of the dark side is just like a pie - you've got 8000+ Sith Lords fighting for a piece. Like a mass raid on the Jedi Library - but bloodier, oh and the temple's on fire, and filled with death squads. With the Rule of Two we've only got two people who have all the time in the world to explore the library, and leave helpful datapads detailing all the important information and were to find it. Which institution will produce the more learned scholars?

That kind of simplistic analysis is also irrational. A > B > C logic cannot be applied to these confrontations, for various reasons, including the asymmetric nature of most confrontations. A "pure" test of two characters abilities against a single standard could provide a basis for analysis, but instances of this are rare to nonexistent. Even then, such information would only be a single piece of the equation.

When did I say anything about ABC logic? I'm merely saying these are the facts we have before us concerning Vitiate's abilities, yes he's immensely powerful and consumed thousands of Sith Lords, but those statements are vague and open to interpretation. This duels however give us a means of gauging Vitiate's abilities, hence why I'm taking them into account and leaving the rest largely unmentioned.

Plagueis is powerful, but by no means overwhelmingly so.

I agree, and said as much - hence why any attempt to simply power through would likely fail. Evasion and exploitation are his tools.

You just felt the need to throw out an irrational statement for the sake of provocation?

Woah, woah, woah. Aurbere just stating his opinion. An opinion which is perfectly rational. Unless your a Revan fanboi?

Yeah, Plagueis, more powerful than the Chosen One? Get real.

Of course Plageuis is not more powerful than the Chosen One... but then Vader's only a 1/3 of the Chosen One, isn't he?

On top of all this, the entire premise for considering Plagueis to be such a strong Sith Lord is because he's near the tail end of the rule of two. Now, even assuming that the rule of two provides a linear increase in individual power with the Force (which is a premise I do not accept), but assuming that to be true...

 

You have a thousand years of linear progression for the Rule of Two... Vitiate has a thousand years of linear progression FOR HIMSELF. So, by the logic of the Rule of Two... Vitiate should be on par with Sidious (a fractional step behind him, since Sidious is confirmed to be the strongest.. but not by how much).

Not entirely, although it is a perfectly logical premise and if not true then the Rule of Two practically ceases to exist. Its kind of categorically necessary and hardly 'a premise'. Its a fact. But anyway, as I said this is detracting from the actual debate and was never intended to be a counter argument for Vitiate's power. I'm not sure were it came from, but I will say that Plagueis' power was very close to that of Sidious. And I would agree, Vitiate is second in my rankings to Sidious. But then again Plagueis is a close third or fourth. Like I said, not more powerful, but powerful enough to kill him.

 

We also have to take into account affinity, Sidious is just possesses more affinity for the Force and for the darkside, his reach is almost boundless.

[Kaedusz]

It would be, he has the feats and powers to take on a number of opponents. But anyway, back on track here with this.

 

Plagueis and Vitiate are exceptional.As powerful as Vader was in the suit,in his prime, he is no match for some of the best sith- Vitiate and Plagueis.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Wolfninjajedi]

Plagueis and Vitiate are exceptional.As powerful as Vader was in the suit,in his prime, he is no match for some of the best sith- Vitiate and Plagueis.

 

Not really...in terms of saber skill, ya Vader outclasses both by a pretty huge margin. Force ability, the only significant thing they have over Vader is lighting which his suit is resistant to(I find this quite ironic and humorous but Vader was smart in that aspect) and it isn't like he can't defend himself from it using other means.

 

But anyway enough Vader talk, this ain't the thread for it.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

The storm covering the strip in front of him is somewhat moot as that strip was where all the jedi were and that strip was also the only ground that the jedi could have gone through to reach him, however i see your point and that is plausible, a bit of speulation, but plausible.

 

What good is absorbing Vitiate's power if hes becoming overwhelmed by it and cant use it. Also yes arrogance does not equal stupidity but what does Vitiate show besides his initial stream of lightning (which could destroy Vitiate) that would make Plagueis reconsider the assuption that he is not the most powerful force user? Vitiate's mind control? Perhaps, but that just shows Plagueis that he is a powerul telepath and if Plagueis can resist it then he has no reason to believe that he cannot overpower Vitiate through the force, and if he cannot resist mind control then he has already lost (but im assuming he can, obviously).

 

As such Plagueis has no reason to believe that Vitiate is stronger than him. So when Vitiate does send a stream of lightning at him, hes going to believe himself the stronger and use tutamis. And as I have said before that will be the beginning of the end for him. I do not believe he will be able to break the lock that will inevitably destroy him without putting significant risk on damaging his transpirator.

 

Also Plagueis being stronger than Vader is debatable, he does match up well with his jar-kai saber form, however that might be it and that is a discussion for another time.

I'll address these points in bulk, with numbers corresponding to paragraphs.

 

 

1. Not quite, because you'll notice that the Hero of Tython steps out of that strip and into the small empty space between the storm and Vitiate. It would seem that Vitiate himself cannot be in the storm, which would make sense. However all I'm saying is that Vitiate would need more time to cover the entire room. Time he simply does not have.
    
    
   
2. For one I doubt he will be overwhelmed that quickly, and secondly concerning gauging power - simply Vitiate himself, Plagueis still has Force sense and I'm sure he'll sense the power of the being in front of him who is literally oozing with the dark side. I also expect his opening move will be, as he has every intention of destroying Plagueis in one strike, Force illusions which will buy him time to summon a powerful Force storm. Which will only build on the impression of power. But yeah, he's just a big, hulking wad of dark side energy and Plagueis will clearly see that.
    
    
   
3. In light of the above point, he will, and this will not occur. However it is a small possibility, say if driven into a tight spot, and one that should be considered. I still believe telekinetic attacks are on the table, and a mental attack would also suffice.
   

 

P.S. Concerning Vader vs Plagueis, I think lightsaber combat is largely irrelevant. This is a battle were Plagueis will be using his Force powers to there greatest extent, a barrage of lightning, Force waves etc. which I believe Vader would buckle under.

[Kaedusz]

Not really...in terms of saber skill, ya Vader outclasses both by a pretty huge margin. .

 

You are writing this as if he wasn't a damaged torso and a head and as if he never got the suit.Yes he may have become more powerful in the suit than before,but this is obvious and absolutely nothing compared to his original potential.

Just because he is the chosen one he would be just bellow the great names of ancient and more recent sith.If he wasn't(the chosen one) he would be so crippled he would be given the task of fetching books in the library on Korriban or something.

 

I mean Vitiate is more powerful than Vader in a suit in his prime ,even before he consumed a planet.Even if he is not,after he consumed it,to think that Vader is more powerful than him,its just fantasy.

And i thought it goes without saying that Vader is nothing next to Plagueis.What you are saying is just wishful thinking.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

You are writing this as if he wasn't a damaged torso and a head and as if he never got the suit.Yes he may have become more powerful in the suit than before,but this is obvious.

Just because he is the chosen one he would be just bellow the great names of ancient and more recent sith.If he wasn't(the chosen one) he would be so crippled he would be given the task of fetching books in the library on Korriban or something.

Exactly, Vader isn't the Chosen One, he's a third of him. An in his own words "technological terrors are insignificant next to the power of the Force". Lightsabers are far from the be all and end all.

[Wolfninjajedi]

You are writing this as if he wasn't a damaged torso and a head and as if he never got the suit.Yes he may have become more powerful in the suit than before,but this is obvious.

Just because he is the chosen one he would be just bellow the great names of ancient and more recent sith.If he wasn't(the chosen one) he would be so crippled he would be given the task of fetching books in the library on Korriban or something.

 

Never said I was writing this as if he wasn't damaged, I am just stating that he has shown more doing lightsaber combat then Vitiate or Plagueis is all. As for if he wasn't the chosen one...no, I think he'd still be a formidable opponent anyway given his character personality and the like.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

So let me address environmental advantages. Vitiate has the advantage in the corridors of the Lodge, but Plagueis has the advantage in the more open areas. However, Vitiate's lightning storms are such that he could cover a vast portion of any large room.

 

However, we should also remember that they aren't face to face. So Plagueis could attack when he has the advantage, and vice-versa.

The advantage works both way, in the corridors Plagueis has a smaller gap to close, which means lightsaber combat is basically a given. Its also actually harder for Vitiate to summon lightining at close quarters, distance has to be made first.

 

Its also easier for Plageuis to dodge, as he can simply nip round a corner or other natural barrier.

[Aurbere]

Could we move away from the Vader debate. Not the time or the place for it.

 

The advantage works both way, in the corridors Plagueis has a smaller gap to close, which means lightsaber combat is basically a given. Its also actually harder for Vitiate to summon lightining at close quarters, distance has to be made first.

 

Its also easier for Plageuis to dodge, as he can simply nip round a corner or other natural barrier.

 

That's true. However, the tight corridors give Vitiate a smaller area to concentrate his lightning, which could prevent Plagueis from getting in close.

 

In a perfect world, of course. Obstructions like you mentioned, or Plagueis could project a Force phantom of himself to distract Vitiate. It was enough to trick Palpatine.

[Darkondo]

Could we move away from the Vader debate. Not the time or the place for it.

 

 

 

That's true. However, the tight corridors give Vitiate a smaller area to concentrate his lightning, which could prevent Plagueis from getting in close.

 

In a perfect world, of course. Obstructions like you mentioned, or Plagueis could project a Force phantom of himself to distract Vitiate. It was enough to trick Palpatine.

 

That is true however, Vitiate will have a presense in Plagueis's mind however small due to his mind control. Since he has that presense in Plagueis's mind, and Plagueis doesnt know how to fight it other than sheer willpower (which is enough to resist it, but not become immune to it) Vitiate will be able to track where Plagueis is through that, and it doesnt matter what illusions Plagueis puts up then, Vitiate will always know where Plagueis is.

[Darkondo]

I'll address these points in bulk, with numbers corresponding to paragraphs.

 

 

1. Not quite, because you'll notice that the Hero of Tython steps out of that strip and into the small empty space between the storm and Vitiate. It would seem that Vitiate himself cannot be in the storm, which would make sense. However all I'm saying is that Vitiate would need more time to cover the entire room. Time he simply does not have.
    
    
   
2. For one I doubt he will be overwhelmed that quickly, and secondly concerning gauging power - simply Vitiate himself, Plagueis still has Force sense and I'm sure he'll sense the power of the being in front of him who is literally oozing with the dark side. I also expect his opening move will be, as he has every intention of destroying Plagueis in one strike, Force illusions which will buy him time to summon a powerful Force storm. Which will only build on the impression of power. But yeah, he's just a big, hulking wad of dark side energy and Plagueis will clearly see that.
    
    
   
3. In light of the above point, he will, and this will not occur. However it is a small possibility, say if driven into a tight spot, and one that should be considered. I still believe telekinetic attacks are on the table, and a mental attack would also suffice.
   

 

P.S. Concerning Vader vs Plagueis, I think lightsaber combat is largely irrelevant. This is a battle were Plagueis will be using his Force powers to there greatest extent, a barrage of lightning, Force waves etc. which I believe Vader would buckle under.

 

Plagueis may see that Vitiate is oozing with the dark side, however I dont believe hes going to immediately assume that Vitiate is more powerful than he is, and remember he may not hesitate to use lightsabers when he has to, but he still despises using them and prefers to use the force at least at 1st. I'm not ruling your point out as this could possibly occur, however I find the chances of it slim.

 

As for being overwhelmed by Vitiate's lightning, your right i do not believe he would be overwhelmed quickly, however Vitiate doesnt need to overwhelm him. Remember in the Revan novel, even when Revan was containing Vitiate's stream successfully, the sheer heat of the lightning was melting his mask into his face. The same could happen to Plagueis's transpirator in a short amount of time, and Plagueis may be considered highly proficient in tutamis, however there is no evidence to suggest that he was any better at containing a stream of lightning than Revan was.

 

And even if Plagueis is more proficient in tutamis then Revan was, even while containing it the sheer heat from Vitiate's lightning could melt Plagueis's transpirator in a short amount of time.

[Hoech]

Ok I am not familiar with the other battles, so perhaps in the other threads there are stated rules... but why are we assuming Vitiate will be alone? I mean even if there is a rule stated somewhere that all of these fights must be 1v1, with Vitiate's skill sets I think it needs to be waved in this scenario.

 

Even if he doesn't bring his own elite soldiers (whose loyalty is guaranteed through mind control, and skills/strength augmented by Vitiate through the force) (on another note, In the OP we have mentioned just how extreme his fear of death is and that just makes it seem very unlikely to me that he is going to show up alone to a fight.) he could very easily over ride the minds of any beings in the Fobosi District and have them descend upon Plagueis in hordes.

 

With these external forces influencing the fight any of Plagueis' advantage in lightsaber combat is neutralized. In fact this route creates many "No win" scenarios for Plagueis.

 

EX. Vitiate summons up hordes from the district which of course will take time to arrive. In this period the battle will go pretty much as people predicted. Flashy displays of power from both parties that would vaporize lesser foe's, neither side really gaining any ground. It would be inevitable that Plagueis would at some point press the physical attack. The problem here lies in that (as has been mentioned) that Plagueis lacks the precognitive abilities of even untrained force sensitives. While this isn't enough for Vitiate to overwhelm Plagueis physically, it would be more than reasonable to assume Vitiate will be able to at the very least prolong the duel. ( We all seem to be overlooking the fact that Vitiate first made his name as an accomplished warrior on his home world long before he consumed all life on the planet.)

 

In this first example I foresee Plagueis being baited, but ultimatly turning the tide of battle in his favor, eventually moving in for a killing blow that he never gets to execute. Insert cheesey laughter from Vitiate as Plagueis extinguished lightsaber falls to the floor, hate replaced with confusion in Plagueis' eyes as he succumbs to the smoking blaster crater in his back, having never even sensed the bolt fired.

 

EX.2 Those whose mind's have been dominated arrive right in the heat of things. Given the location they can't be utilized properly, (dozens of attacks descending on Plagueis from various directions) It seems like this will come down to a hallway scenario with Plagueis trapped between mind puppets and Vitiate. At which point he is faced with some important decisions. Plagueis can lock up with Vitiate as he certainly is the more powerful foe, or he can turn his attention to the lesser beings. Either way the outcome won't be good. Stalemating with Vitiate will only allow those behind him to eventually overwhelm him. If he does turn his attention on them, you can beat Vitiate will seize the opportunity to reduce him to a charred crisp or at the very least destroy the machinery that allows Plagueis to breathe.

 

 

Again I am sorry if the use of external forces is generally not allowed, but I maintain that even if that is the case, an exception should be made here. Vitiate's strongest power has always been to seamlessly manipulate the minds of those around him. It makes zero sense to me that for this fight he would suddenly pull a Darth Maul and give up his advantage to gloat in his power.

[Ventessel]

Just throwing this out there as well, since a lot of Plagueis' strategy seems to hinge on tutaminis.

 

He has been shown to be capable of using that skill to absorb blaster bolts, not torrents of the Emperor's Force Lightning. Plagueis hasn't really demonstrated amazing abilities against other Force users. He killed Darth Venamis, a half trained apprentice of Tenebrous. That's about it.

 

He killed his master with treachery, and was in turn killed when he was helpless... that doesn't speak much for Bane's vision of the rule of two, either.

[marcelo_sdk]

I disagree that Vitiate's skill with a lightsaber was nearly zero. I mean, whats the base to affirm that? We saw only one duel between his Voice and the Hero of Tython. And we must remember that the Hero is not a trash opponent, he defeated Darth Angral, Lord Scourge and the Voice. Despite that, I tend to think that Plagueis is more experienced in battle, he couldn't stay always at the backstage just sending his minions to do his bidding. But I still think Vitiate could pull this off, I just see Darth Sidious and perhaps Darth Bane, among the Sith, rivalizing with Vitiate.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I disagree that Vitiate's skill with a lightsaber was nearly zero. I mean, whats the base to affirm that?

 

The fact we see him hardly ever use a lightsaber except with the battle against the Hero of Tython, and even then that doesn't show much because for the most part it was gameplay mechanics, canon wise there really isn't anything on him for lightsaber combat.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

I disagree that Vitiate's skill with a lightsaber was nearly zero. I mean, whats the base to affirm that? We saw only one duel between his Voice and the Hero of Tython. And we must remember that the Hero is not a trash opponent, he defeated Darth Angral, Lord Scourge and the Voice. Despite that, I tend to think that Plagueis is more experienced in battle, he couldn't stay always at the backstage just sending his minions to do his bidding. But I still think Vitiate could pull this off, I just see Darth Sidious and perhaps Darth Bane, among the Sith, rivalizing with Vitiate.

Also the fact that when confronted by Revan he relied solely on Force powers and used Revan's own lightsaber against him - suggesting he did not even always carry one.

 

Despite this it is a point to consider, I highly doubt Vitiate gave much study to lightsaber combat at all, instead he favoured study of sith magic and ruling his Empire. Nonetheless, if he did study a form it was likely Niman - a form for consulars who did not want to put much effort into training but still be able to wield a lightsaber when necessary. However Plagueis had mastered Niman to Exar Kun like levels, levels to the point where it became deadly. Combined with his height, flexibility and agility I'd give Plagueis a resounding edge. And to address Darkondo's point, he may not think Vitiate stronger but he certainly would be extremely catious. In fact it is for the very reason you suggest that Plagueis would avoid such a confrontation, do you really think he'd attempt to catch Vitiate's lightning if he was wearing a respirator that could short out with the smallest spark? No, he'll avoid such a confrontation at all costs.

 

This is how I see the battle panning out:

 

Vitiate throws illusions at Plagueis to buy time to summon a Force storm - intending to destroy him in a single strike. Plagueis however quickly realises this and responds with a powerful Force wave which dispels the illusions and staggers Vitiate, preventing the storm from starting. Realising that at a distance he is at mercy to Vitiate's powers that could potentially damage his transpirator, he attempts to close the gap with a burst of Force speed, drawing his lightsabers.

 

Vitiate manages to respond with either a bolt of lightning or a stream, depending on his recovery rate. Plagueis, not wishing to damage his transpirator, either reflects the bolt, or catches the lightning with his blade and responds with a Force wave. Either way Vitiate is knocked to the ground and Plagueis rushes forward.

 

Vitiate has either no time to respond or just enough time for a Force push, either way Plagueis can evade any following attacks and will inevitably close the gap. Forcing Vitiate is draw his blade. As Plagueis engages him in lightsaber combat Vitiate will likely fall back on the defensive and Plagueis will drive him into the corridor. Or Plagueis will feign weakness and be driven in. At this point Plagueis can collapse the entrance, ensuring Vitiate cannot get away. Given Plagueis skill with a lightsaber, height, agility and flexibility, Vitiate will inevitably lose and be killed.

 

So it won't even come to Tutanimis, which, for the record, is not what Plagueis' victory relies on but is rather the only real scenario in which Vitiate can feasibly win, and even then it's not a given. Plagueis has a counter for everything else Vitiate can throw at him. Simply put Plagueis will evade his attacks, bypass his defences and strike hard at his weak point.

 

Also note that despite Plagueis' disdain for lightsabers he often used them and often used them first. Even when without one he still relied on martial arts to defeat his opponents. Force powers just augmented and supported his lightsaber ability.

 

P.S. Given the mechanics of the Rule of Two - Plagueis was likely stronger than Bane. And his power was close to that of Sidious' - although arguably Sidious had not yet reached the pinnacle of his strength.

[Ventessel]

Also the fact that when confronted by Revan he relied solely on Force powers and used Revan's own lightsaber against him - suggesting he did not even always carry one.

 

Despite this it is a point to consider, I highly doubt Vitiate gave much study to lightsaber combat at all, instead he favoured study of sith magic and ruling his Empire.

This simply means that he knows the Force is vastly more powerful than lightsabers, which bodes ill for Plagueis attempting to overcome him by rushing in with a lightsaber. Here's a comparison of their attitudes towards lightsabers:

"Plagueis was also skilled in lightsaber combat, although he disdained using his blade in combat, regarding lightsaber duels as tedious affairs."

"When necessary, the Emperor would utilize his red-bladed lightsaber in combat"

~Wookiepedia

So both combatants seem to prefer to use the Force, but are both capable of using lightsabers. So even if Plagueis closes the distance, there's nothing to indicate that he'll be overwhelmed instantly, or even quickly. Vitiate held his own against the Hero of Tython, who almost exclusively preferred lightsaber combat.

Nonetheless, if he did study a form it was likely Niman - a form for consulars who did not want to put much effort into training but still be able to wield a lightsaber when necessary. However Plagueis had mastered Niman to Exar Kun like levels, levels to the point where it became deadly. Combined with his height, flexibility and agility I'd give Plagueis a resounding edge.

I don't see how a discussion of form should matter here. Plagueis is never stated to have studied Niman, nor to have achieved "Exar Kun like" mastery of it. Exar Kun is unique among practitioners of Niman so far, Plagueis did not often engage in lightsaber combat. His only real edge is extreme speed, which is offset by his lack of Jedi reflexes and precognition due to his partial possession by Tenebrous.

Also note that despite Plagueis' disdain for lightsabers he often used them and often used them first. Even when without one he still relied on martial arts to defeat his opponents. Force powers just augmented and supported his lightsaber ability.

When has he been shown to resort to lightsaber combat first? In his duel with Venamis? Again, his martial skill will help him but by no means ensure victory even if he closes the distance. Vitiate is capable of immensely powerful telekinesis and barriers, which will be more than adequate for tossing Plagueis away and shielding himself. He threw Revan casually across his throne room with a mere wave of the hand.

Furthermore, while Plagueis is gathering up for his Force Wave, Vitiate can easily counteract with his own wave, turning it into a battle of Force strength much as when Anakin and Obi-Wan opposed each other's Force Waves on Mustafar. Vitiate will not allow Plagueis to bat him around like a rag doll when he can easily counter with Force Storms, Lightning, or Waves of his own.

P.S. Given the mechanics of the Rule of Two - Plagueis was likely stronger than Bane. And his power was close to that of Sidious' - although arguably Sidious had not yet reached the pinnacle of his strength.

The Rule of Two is shaky at best. So far, we have seen only Bane adhere to the rule. Every other Sith has broken it, so we're really only speculating that Bane's plan worked out the way he envisioned it.

 

Tenebrous trained Venamis at the same time as Plagueis, Plagueis authorized Sidious to train Maul and abolished the Rule of Two, Sidious murdered Plagueis while he was drunk and reinstated the Rule of Two, Dooku trained both Ventress and Savage to overthrow Sidious, Vader trained Starkiller and others including his intention of teaming up with Luke to kill Sidious... the Rule of Two was in tatters by the time Plagueis got around to it, and he tried to get rid of it entirely as part of his plan to live forever, a plan that Sidious arguably adopted after him.

 

So the "mechanics" of the Rule of Two only show that Zannah surpassed Bane... no telling how long that carried on before the Sith apprentices got back to their sneaky, traitorous ways.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Ventessel

[Aurbere]

Seems like this debate is starting to wind down. Or maybe I'm just thinking that it is.

 

Either way, I would like to address a few points.

 

1. In regards to the comment on Vitiate's use of mind control on the people in the area surrounding the Lodge. While that would make sense, given that one of Vitiate's biggest strengths is mind control, but it won't happen. The battlefield is a simulation. Everything in the environment is real, but the battle is actually taking place on some research station. It's all a simulation. Sound good?

 

2. Regarding lightsaber skill. It is unlikely that Vitiate studied any lightsaber forms as he spent most of his time unearthing Dark Side secrets and looking for a way to cheat death. But if he did, it would most likely be Niman, as we see him mostly use Force powers.

 

For Plagueis, while he disdains lightsaber combat, he often draws his blade or resorts to using his great physical capabilities. I would disagree with Beni to say that he rivals Exar Kun, though I would put him fairly close in terms of Niman mastery (how close? I don't know). I had actually considered Exar Kun vs. Plagueis, but then considered Force powers, and decided against it. Would have been a good fight, though.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Aurbere

[Aurbere]

I'm getting ready to call this one. Any final remarks?