The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 03: Lord Vitiate vs. Darth Plagueis

[Canino]

That's actually a strategy that I had considered. Basically, Plagueis could kill Vitiate by hiding his presence in the Force, and then force Vitiate's midi-chlorians to return to their source. He could will his Vitiate to die.

 

However, there is one question here. Can Plagueis hide himself in the Force while using his manipulations? We should also note that it is unlikely that Vitiate would decide to use a ritual in this battle.

 

True, but his rituals are one of his major sources of power. He would be stupid to at least not attempt it once. And I don't know. He was able to read minds while hiding his presence (IIRC) and all he would be doing is concentrating, then unleashing the manipulation. He doesn't actually have to use the force to prepare for the attack (again IIRC). What? I've had a long, long, LONG day.

[Kaedusz]

I don't understand what your saying. Is Vitiate not powerful without the rituals? Is Plagueis nothing compared to him? Can you please clarify a little for me? Your answer (to me) seemed a bit vague. Maybe I'm just tired or out of it, I don't know...

 

The things Vitiate did using rituals can't be done without them.Plagueis would need rituals too,if he attempts them.

 

In actual combat Vitiate won't be sitting and mumbling mantras preparing for a ritual if that is what your asking.

 

That aside,if they fight,i think Vitiate would win in my opinion.Having consumed a whole planet and exploring the secrets of the force for a thousand years would be just too much for Plagueis.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Aurbere]

True, but his rituals are one of his major sources of power. He would be stupid to at least not attempt it once. And I don't know. He was able to read minds while hiding his presence (IIRC) and all he would be doing is concentrating, then unleashing the manipulation. He doesn't actually have to use the force to prepare for the attack (again IIRC). What? I've had a long, long, LONG day.

 

It's just that the rituals take time. If Vitiate decides to set one up, Plagueis will end it right then and there. He would be commiting unintended suicide in that sense.

 

Plagueis could simply hide in the shadows and midi-chlorian manipulate Vitiate to death. The details on what midi-chlorian requires is fuzzy for me right now, but it could be possible that he could kill Vitiate before the battle begins. That is, of course, unless Plagueis decides to push for an offensive.

[Kaedusz]

 

Plagueis could simply hide in the shadows and midi-chlorian manipulate Vitiate to death. The details on what midi-chlorian requires is fuzzy for me right now, but it could be possible that he could kill Vitiate before the battle begins. [/color]

 

Don't think he can actually do these things to a monstrously powerful sith that spend a thousand years delving into dark side secrets and what not.I mean most sith ,Plagueis included is nothing next to him.

 

i find your casual comparison between them,like Vitiate was some random Sith Lord disturbing.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Darkondo]

It's just that the rituals take time. If Vitiate decides to set one up, Plagueis will end it right then and there. He would be commiting unintended suicide in that sense.

 

Plagueis could simply hide in the shadows and midi-chlorian manipulate Vitiate to death. The details on what midi-chlorian requires is fuzzy for me right now, but it could be possible that he could kill Vitiate before the battle begins. That is, of course, unless Plagueis decides to push for an offensive.

 

I hear but what ive been saying is that yes Plagueis will prob. be able to successfully resist Vitiate's mind control but the key phrase here is RESIST. Only the JK and Revan (to some degree) are actually immune to his mind control (and this was only achieved after Vitiate had dominated their minds once). Vitiate uses little to no effort and is even shown to corrupt those that are even in his presense.

 

Now take Plagueis who has some experience in mind games but has never had any experience in dealing with the level of mind control that Vitiate possesses. I think he'l be able to resist it on sheer power, however he wont be able to get rid of it simply because he doesnt know how to and it will be a bother to him throughout the entire fight.

 

I just dont think that Plagueis will be able to concentrate on any sort of midichlorian manipulation with Vitiate constantly in his head. Given if Plagueis gets close with his lightsabers its probably game over, however thats the only way i see Plagueis come out on top. As for rituals, those are impractical and mostly useless in battle and i could say with absolute conviction that they wont be used.

 

Force Power = Emperor Vitiate due to lightning that is arguably 2nd in lethality to Darth Sidious and mind control

Close Range = Darth Plagueis due to saber skills

 

I still think Vitiate has enough tools to keep Plagueis at bay and keep this a force duel in which case he would win due to surperior ability in it as well as Plagueis' weak spot.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I hear but what ive been saying is that yes Plagueis will prob. be able to successfully resist Vitiate's mind control but the key phrase here is RESIST. Only the JK and Revan (to some degree) are actually immune to his mind control (and this was only achieved after Vitiate had dominated their minds once). Vitiate uses little to no effort and is even shown to corrupt those that are even in his presense.

 

Now take Plagueis who has some experience in mind games but has never had any experience in dealing with the level of mind control that Vitiate possesses. I think he'l be able to resist it on sheer power, however he wont be able to get rid of it simply because he doesnt know how to and it will be a bother to him throughout the entire fight.

 

I just dont think that Plagueis will be able to concentrate on any sort of midichlorian manipulation with Vitiate constantly in his head. Given if Plagueis gets close with his lightsabers its probably game over, however thats the only way i see Plagueis come out on top. As for rituals, those are impractical and mostly useless in battle and i could say with absolute conviction that they wont be used.

 

Force Power = Emperor Vitiate due to lightning that is arguably 2nd in lethality to Darth Sidious and mind control

Close Range = Darth Plagueis due to saber skills

 

I still think Vitiate has enough tools to keep Plagueis at bay and keep this a force duel in which case he would win due to surperior ability in it as well as Plagueis' weak spot.

 

You sure?...I mean really sure? What has Vitiate done with Force Lighting, that would put him 2nd behind Sidious with it? Plagueis has done some stuff with it too.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Darkondo]

Also I forgot about Plagueis' transpirator, personally though this only convinces me more that Vitiate would win. If Plagueis gets hit with enough lightning (which he wouldnt need much) then he could short out Vitiate's transpirator which would pretty much kill him.

 

ex.) I know it has been proven that Darth Vader is actually highly resistant to force lightning. However, the lightning of Sidious and Starkiller have both shorted out his breathing apparatus before.

 

The point is while Vader can survive his breathing apparatus destroyed due to relying on his sheer hatred, Plagueis does not have that same luxury. Also Vitiate has arguably the 2nd most powerful lightning of any character from star wars. If Plagueis gets hit with that for any period of time (even an instant depending where he lands the blast) then his transpirator is more than likely to short out, effectively killing him.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Also I forgot about Plagueis' transpirator, personally though this only convinces me more that Vitiate would win. If Plagueis gets hit with enough lightning (which he wouldnt need much) then he could short out Vitiate's transpirator which would pretty much kill him.

 

ex.) I know it has been proven that Darth Vader is actually highly resistant to force lightning. However, the lightning of Sidious and Starkiller have both shorted out his breathing apparatus before.

 

The point is while Vader can survive his breathing apparatus destroyed due to relying on his sheer hatred, Plagueis does not have that same luxury. Also Vitiate has arguably the 2nd most powerful lightning of any character from star wars. If Plagueis gets hit with that for any period of time (even an instant depending where he lands the blast) then his transpirator is more than likely to short out, effectively killing him.

 

Well for Sidious, Vader had let go of his hatred...so him surviving Sidious's lighting from all the way from the throne room to hanger bay was just on sheer willpower. Though what has Vitiate done with his force lighting?

Edited April 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Darkondo]

You sure?...I mean really sure? What has Vitiate done with Force Lighting, that would put him 2nd behind Sidious with it? Plagueis has done some stuff with it too.

 

Hes purged 2 sets of Dark Council members all at once (21DC members total, 9DC members 1st purge, and 11DC members 2nd purge, with lightning. Also took out an entire jedi strike team which consisted of some of the order's finest by creating a force storm just with a wave of his hand (IK the Jk and Tol Braga resisted the 1st wave but they got fried the one after that, and whats more amazing is that it might have just been his Voice that was able to do that alone, which holds only a fraction of his true power)

 

Has overpowered Revan's tutamis, whom had held back the full blast of Darth Nyriss's lightning prior and easily with little effort which was able to incinerate whatever it touched into fried rubble.

 

Like I said, arguably. Im not saying that Vitiate's lightning is 2nd to Sidious's in absolute. What I am saying is that you can actually argue for it, its not set in stone but the evidence out there is enough for you to be able to argue over it effectively.

 

Plagueis may be very proficient with it, however Vitiate has much more evidence and overall feats to prove that his lightning is stronger.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Darkondo

[Darkondo]

Well for Sidious, Vader had let go of his hatred...so him surviving Sidious's lighting from all the way from the throne room to hanger bay was just on sheer willpower. Though what has Vitiate done with his force lighting?

 

Yeah i know I was just trying to point out that powerful lightning can short out Plagueis's transpirator just as it did Vader's breathing apparatus, only difference is Vader augmented it to be resistant to lightning, Plagueis has no such luxury. Vader can survive losing his apparatus, Plagueis cannot, if his transpirator gets short out its game over, he dies.

[Aurbere]

Yeah i know I was just trying to point out that powerful lightning can short out Plagueis's transpirator just as it did Vader's breathing apparatus, only difference is Vader augmented it to be resistant to lightning, Plagueis has no such luxury. Vader can survive losing his apparatus, Plagueis cannot, if his transpirator gets short out its game over, he dies.

 

We should also remember that Plagueis can block the lightning with his lightsabers. But yes, if Vitiate were to hit Plagueis' transpirator, he would most certainly be killed.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Hes purged 2 sets of Dark Council members all at once (21DC members total, 9DC members 1st purge, and 11DC members 2nd purge, with lightning. Also took out an entire jedi strike team which consisted of some of the order's finest by creating a force storm just with a wave of his hand (IK the Jk and Tol Braga resisted the 1st wave but they got fried the one after that, and whats more amazing is that it might have just been his Voice that was able to do that alone, which holds only a fraction of his true power)

 

Has overpowered Revan's tutamis, whom had held back the full blast of Darth Nyriss's lightning prior and easily with little effort which was able to incinerate whatever it touched into fried rubble.

 

Like I said, arguably. Im not saying that Vitiate's lightning is 2nd to Sidious's in absolute. What I am saying is that you can actually argue for it, its not set in stone but the evidence out there is enough for you to be able to argue over it effectively.

 

Plagueis may be very proficient with it, however Vitiate has much more evidence and overall feats to prove that his lightning is stronger.

 

Hmm...well Plagueis has done with his, is turning someone's bones into dust, using it to shock a dark side prophetess to death and use it to cover an entire landscape. The covering the entire landscape bit is interesting, because if he can do that, then he could perhaps focus it to do like what Vitiate did with the Jedi strike team or kill a group of people as he did the DC.

 

Of course this is just speculation so ya, Vitiate does have the better feats with it. However Plagueis does have his lightsaber and Tutaminis to deal with the force lighting. The thing is, Plagueis has been described as moving like a blurr, now unless Vitiate has reacted to someone moving that fast then the speed advantage goes to Plagueis.

 

Though to note, Plagueis also has Force Barrier too and also Force Heal...so he may be able to survive abit brief even if Vitiate does get his weakness, how long though who knows.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Darkondo]

We should also remember that Plagueis can block the lightning with his lightsabers. But yes, if Vitiate were to hit Plagueis' transpirator, he would most certainly be killed.

 

Yes, thats possibly true I was just attributing your earlier comment agreeing with the point that lightsabers would probably be useless. However, he would probably have to resort to one blade only if he were to use that for protection from Vitiate's lightning cause lets face it, it is much easier to deflect lightning from a single saber with a 2 handed grip than it is to deflect lightning from 2 lightsabers, it doesnt really matter how much stronger you are.

 

And again say any bit of that lightning escapes and starts to overwhelm him. This is my main argument for why Plagueis's tutamis is also an impractical defense. It does not take much lightning to short out his transpirator, and any lightning that escapes has a chance of doing so. With 2 lightsabers some is bound to escape, even with a single saber keeping any of his lightning at bay is a huge task.

 

As for tutamis I said earlier that Plagueis was overall stronger than Darth Revan. I think hes stronger than Revan Reborn as well whom was able to hold Vitiate's stream of lightning at bay for a short while before being overwhelmed. Even with that there is not enough evidence to prove that Plagueis has the strength in Tutamis necessary to be able to contain all of Vitiate's lightning. Is it possible for him? Maybe, however with lack of evidence for this, assuming that he can block all of Vitiate's lightning via. Tutamis is speculation. And remember any lightning that he cant contain could very well short out his transpirator esp. if he gets hit with alot of it.

 

All this being said, since he has little to no way to block all of Vitiate's lightning he can do one of two things.

1.) He can continue to fight a force battle or try to counter power with his lightsaber which he will either eventually lose due to being overwhelmed or lose right away to a shorted out transpirator

2.) He can use his speed to his advantage and try to close the gap with Vitiate with a much less risk of getting hit, and due to his Muun physiology (3 hearts) he wouldnt have to worry about getting tired in battle.

 

Due to this opt 2 is what he will probably attempt to which Vitiate will attempt to keep him at bay with lightning, his CI, and his illusions. Also one thing about his illusions that I forgot to mention, not only are they lethal they also only disappear after being struck by a lightsaber or hit with a powerful non-force attack (this is from Act 3 JK vs Emperor (Voice or Real thing) but its the best we can go on). This being said It may take more than Plagueis's force wave to make the illusions disappear.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Darkondo

[Aurbere]

Don't think he can actually do these things to a monstrously powerful sith that spend a thousand years delving into dark side secrets and what not.I mean most sith ,Plagueis included is nothing next to him.

 

i find your casual comparison between them,like Vitiate was some random Sith Lord disturbing.

 

I never called Vitiate some random Sith Lord, but you underestimate Plagueis.

 

Why do you think I paired them together? They are both very powerful.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Tbh I don't see Vitiate winning just because of one Force Power, and Plagueis having a transpirator. There is just too many other factors involved here with Plagueis and defenses of what he can do to hold off lighting which are

 

1. Lightsaber

 

2. Tutaminis

 

3. Force Barrier

 

Infact a 4th could be Force Speed, he could infact close the distance before Vitiate even gets a chance to use his lighting. Or even use TK and hurl objects at him to keep Vitiate on the move, or his other force powers he has.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Kaedusz]

, but you underestimate Plagueis.

 

Actually ,no.But Vitiate is something out proportion and something altogether different.

If they compare the number of force secrets they know and the magnitude of their force power, Plagueis loses outright.

Plagueis will stand a chance if he tricks him or outsmart him somehow.And he will most probably do it in actual combat,because lets face it,the emperor is nuts.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

That's actually a strategy that I had considered. Basically, Plagueis could kill Vitiate by hiding his presence in the Force, and then force Vitiate's midi-chlorians to return to their source. He could will Vitiate to die.

 

However, there is one question here. Can Plagueis hide himself in the Force while using his manipulations? We should also note that it is unlikely that Vitiate would decide to use a ritual in this battle.

The problem here is that this theory relies on the assumption that Plagueis can use midi-chlorian manipulation at a distance. However in Darth Plagueis he only does this when in contact with the subject. I therefore doubt he could pull this off.

 

However I still think Plagueis would win, despite Vitiate's superiority in Force powers Plagueis possesses a good number of counter abilities that will allow him to easily close the gap.

 

To explain:

 

Force lightning - respond with: Force bellow or Force speed (dodge)

Other lighting based attacks - respond with: Force speed (dodge)

Force illusions - respond with: Force wave

Static barrier - impossible to throw up, in the moments that Vitiate is stunned Plagueis will close the gap and engage him in lightsaber combat, the concentration required for such a duel will make it difficult to disengage and erect a barrier.

 

As you can see, Plagueis can counter everything Vitiate can throw at him, yet Vitiate cannot counter Plagueis' speed on lightsaber skill. He can only delay the inevitable.

[Beniboybling]

As for tutamis I said earlier that Plagueis was overall stronger than Darth Revan. I think hes stronger than Revan Reborn as well whom was able to hold Vitiate's stream of lightning at bay for a short while before being overwhelmed. Even with that there is not enough evidence to prove that Plagueis has the strength in Tutamis necessary to be able to contain all of Vitiate's lightning. Is it possible for him? Maybe, however with lack of evidence for this, assuming that he can block all of Vitiate's lightning via. Tutamis is speculation.And remember any lightning that he cant contain could very well short out his transpirator esp. if he gets hit with alot of it.

Actually, Plagueis is known to be extremely skilled in use of Tutanimis, Force deflection of course is an entirely different matter but as I said before Plagueis could very plausibly channel Vitiate's lightning into a Force bellow or Force wave. A mental attack might also be another option, something else he was extremely skilled in, being a Muun and all.

Also one thing about his illusions that I forgot to mention, not only are they lethal they also only disappear after being struck by a lightsaber or hit with a powerful non-force attack (this is from Act 3 JK vs Emperor (Voice or Real thing) but its the best we can go on). This being said It may take more than Plagueis's force wave to make the illusions disappear.

I think we are taking game mechanics too far here, we don't know if they could have been dispelled through Force based attacks - the Knight may have just preferred to use a lightsaber. Also, I'm sure its possible to attack the illusions in the battle with Force based attacks, just as you would any other enemy. And given the ease by which the JK dispelled them in the cutscene (which is a far more legitimate source that the battle itself) we can assume a single Force wave would be more than enough.

 

Let's also remember that the real objective of such an attack will be to hit Vitiate, once he is caught in the blast his concentration will be broken and the visions dispelled. What's more Plageuis can use the attack against him, making it even more easier to draw in close.

[Beniboybling]

Actually ,no.But Vitiate is something out proportion and something altogether different.

If they compare the number of force secrets they know and the magnitude of their force power, Plagueis loses outright.

Plagueis will stand a chance if he tricks him or outsmart him somehow.And he will most probably do it in actual combat,because lets face it,the emperor is nuts.

This is true, Vitiate does outclass Plagueis in terms of Force power. However if Vitiate cannot bring his full power to bear then that advantage is lost. Plageuis is not going to charge up to him like Revan did, and attempt to simply power through. He'll use Force speed to dodge any attacks, others he will absorb with Tutaminis and use that power to fuel his abilities, if caught in a lock he'll break it.*

 

All the while he'll be drawing closer and closer to Vitiate will will find it more and more difficult to erect static barriers and conjure lightning, a lightsaber duel will follow and Vitiate will lose.

 

*if anything, Force lightning attacks will help Vitiate - by using Tutaminis he can absorb that power and use it to fuel his other powers e.g. Force wave, bellow, speed. Provided he is not overwhelmed any lightning attack he receives with Vitiate will be responded with an extremely powerful return attack. And I mean extremely powerful.

[Ventessel]

Tbh I don't see Vitiate winning just because of one Force Power, and Plagueis having a transpirator. There is just too many other factors involved here with Plagueis and defenses of what he can do to hold off lighting which are

 

1. Lightsaber

 

2. Tutaminis

 

3. Force Barrier

 

Infact a 4th could be Force Speed, he could infact close the distance before Vitiate even gets a chance to use his lighting. Or even use TK and hurl objects at him to keep Vitiate on the move, or his other force powers he has.

 

Vitiate can actually exploit Plagueis' Force Speed to hilarious effect. Without his precognition, which is what gives most Jedi the appearance of super-human reflexes, Vitiate can erect static barriers and use TK to throw objects into Plagueis' path, and because Vitiate has precog and Plagueis does not, his evasions can be used to simply lead him into other objects.

 

Basically, Vitiate can make Plagueis hit himself in the face with stuff. Then laugh like the deranged egomaniac he is and obliterate Plagueis with lightning.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Vitiate can actually exploit Plagueis' Force Speed to hilarious effect. Without his precognition, which is what gives most Jedi the appearance of super-human reflexes, Vitiate can erect static barriers and use TK to throw objects into Plagueis' path, and because Vitiate has precog and Plagueis does not, his evasions can be used to simply lead him into other objects.

 

Basically, Vitiate can make Plagueis hit himself in the face with stuff. Then laugh like the deranged egomaniac he is and obliterate Plagueis with lightning.

 

Because Plagueis normally can't see things be thrown at him? It isn't like he hasn't blocked or fought off enemies before.

[Darkondo]

Actually, Plagueis is known to be extremely skilled in use of Tutanimis, Force deflection of course is an entirely different matter but as I said before Plagueis could very plausibly channel Vitiate's lightning into a Force bellow or Force wave. A mental attack might also be another option, something else he was extremely skilled in, being a Muun and all.I think we are taking game mechanics too far here, we don't know if they could have been dispelled through Force based attacks - the Knight may have just preferred to use a lightsaber. Also, I'm sure its possible to attack the illusions in the battle with Force based attacks, just as you would any other enemy. And given the ease by which the JK dispelled them in the cutscene (which is a far more legitimate source that the battle itself) we can assume a single Force wave would be more than enough.

 

Let's also remember that the real objective of such an attack will be to hit Vitiate, once he is caught in the blast his concentration will be broken and the visions dispelled. What's more Plageuis can use the attack against him, making it even more easier to draw in close.

 

I know for a fact that Vitiate is superior in the mind trick dept, but lets say Plagueis does attempt to use his own mind tricks and illusions along with force concealment to try and trick Vitiate. They will be useless due simply to Vitiate's mind control, his mere presense will be in Plagueis's head however slight and he can just trace where Plagueis is through the presense he has in his mind (its how he is able to awaken his children and probe Revan's mind).

 

And the case could be made that it can work both ways and Plagueis can find Vitiate through that. I dont think he can simply because he hasnt ever dealt with Vitiate's mind control before and would simply not know how.

 

Good point with the illusions, however you may be missing something with Vitiate's lightning. He only needs a bit of it to actually short out Plagueis's transpirator which means that he doesnt need to overwhelm Plagueis with a straight stream of it. He can project force storms with a wave of his hand that can cover a huge area. Tutamis and lightsabers would be impractical as the storm isnt directly coming at him, its covering the entire area he's in. Force barrier could protect him from the storm but it also leaves him a sitting duck to Vitiate's more powerful streams and bursts of lightning, so then it becomes if he uses tutamis hel need to focus on that and the storm could short out his transpirator.

 

The only way he could get out is by running out of the area which is plausible but with the ease that Vitiate can project these storms it becomes a rinse and repeat. Also in act 2 Jk Vitiate is shown to be able to project storms and project streams and bursts of lightning while the storm is still going on. This cripples Plagueis's chances of even getting in a force lock which he could break with force bellow simply because if he does the storm will come down on him and short out his transpirator. Force bellow may stop lightning but it cant stop an area wide force storm which is what Vitiate can bring down on him.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Darkondo

[Darkondo]

I also forgot to mention that the area that this battle is taking place "Lodge of the Canted Circle" makes it plausible for Vitiate to project a storm or multiple storms that would cover the entire Lodge. If he can do that then game over Plagueis has lost because he has no area to go to that isnt covered by a storm. Again tutamis and lightsabers would be impractical due to the area of the attack but lets say they work. It would severely slow him down attempting to navigate through that storm which would leave him subject to Vitiate's direct, more powerful lightning.

 

Say he also puts a force barrier, same result i said earlier. He becomes a sitting duck and is now subject to stronger lightning. I dont see anyway possible that Plagueis could get out of this. If he defends himself from the storm, he gets killed by the more powerful bursts of lightning. If he tries to defend the stronger lightning, then the storm comes down on him and shorts out his transpirator. Either way its a victory for Vitiate.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Darkondo

[Wolfninjajedi]

So what is stopping Plagueis from hurling objects at Vitiate thus breaking the force storms? Or force pushing Vitiate back? Or using his own lighting? Plagueis does also know saber throw, he could use it against Vitiate too. Actually Plagueis also has killed using Midi-clorian manipulation without touching too. Edited April 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Darkondo]

So what is stopping Plagueis from hurling objects at Vitiate thus breaking the force storms? Or force pushing Vitiate back?

 

The fact that he can make them with a wave of his hand and that he doesnt need to actually channel them. So even if Plagueis threw stuff at Vitiate it wouldnt break the storms and puts Plagueis at huge risk for the storms to short out his transpirator. In other words Vitiate waves hand and makes storm while Plagueis throws object at him. Storm goes on and hits Plagueis while Vitiate catches object since he can change up. Act2 JK story proves that he can change up while a storm is going on.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Darkondo