Sethland Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 So SWTOR like the majority of MMO's out there adhere to the trinity system: Tank, DPS, Heals. Now, in SWTOR we have 4-man groups for regular Flashpoints, and 8 or 16-man groups for Operations. For 4-man Flashpoint groups in particular these will consist of 1 tank, 2 DPS and 1 healer. We all know that tanks and healers are in short supply, whilst DPS are a dime a dozen. So the question is simple really - why would their design revolve around having only 2 DPS for every Flashpoint group? Would queue times not be faster from a DPS perspective if a Flashpoint group consisted of say a tank, 4 DPS and a healer? Or even 5-6 DPS? I do not have the metrics of course, but any way you look at it - something could and should be done about the queue waiting times for DPS - and it is clearly not enough to make the tank and healer classes more appealing - people like those large damage numbers too much. And I suppose this is the inherent flaw in the trinity system. So to re-iterate, why break from the norm (don't make me say WoW) when the outcome is a longer wait for DPS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanCP Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 your point is correct. But may I remind you that 5 is NOT the norm? It's just a chosen number between 3 (the bare minimum to get the Trinity system work) and infinity. LotRO for exemple uses groups of 6. This being said, waiting time for a HM flashpoint as DPS at level 50 is not that bad. I never waited more than 7-12 minutes when I did them daily (that's about 4-5 months ago) And, sadly OP, don't you think it's a little late to redo this whole gaming system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aVmuse Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) Please go ahead and do some of the flashpoints without a single healer or tank. Wonder how long you'd last against some of the bosses. Dps cannot heal either as they are supposed to dps according to your rules. Edited March 28, 2013 by aVmuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabethchase Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Please go ahead and do some of the flashpoints without a single healer or tank. Wonder how long you'd last against some of the bosses. Dps cannot heal either as they are supposed to dps according to your rules. Wow, not his point AT ALL. He wants more slots in the group total so that everyone gets to play. come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyfy Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 your point is correct. But may I remind you that 5 is NOT the norm? It's just a chosen number between 3 (the bare minimum to get the Trinity system work) and infinity. LotRO for exemple uses groups of 6. This being said, waiting time for a HM flashpoint as DPS at level 50 is not that bad. I never waited more than 7-12 minutes when I did them daily (that's about 4-5 months ago) And, sadly OP, don't you think it's a little late to redo this whole gaming system? DDO, Turbines other IP game also uses the 6 man party system. Although the Trinity system doesn't come into play ad you can ostensibly be all 3 at the same time, less effectively mind you but it is possible. Allowed to take 3 different classes in what ever level combination you choose and able to build your stats as you choose with racial and class bonuses as part of the combo. I actually always loved DDOs flexibility in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyfy Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Please go ahead and do some of the flashpoints without a single healer or tank. Wonder how long you'd last against some of the bosses. Dps cannot heal either as they are supposed to dps according to your rules. His point was instead of 4 man groups why not allow 5 or 6 or even 7 man groups instead of just 4. Argument being that it will allow more people to find a group, which would make for shorter queue times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 It's not a bad idea, but I believe it's a little late for Bioware to retune flashpoints to require 6 people and actually have the content balanced. As well, I would bet that 4,912 angry posts decrying this change would appear in this very forum moments after implementation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLazarillo Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Given the ratio of playable tank builds, playable healer builds, and playable DPS builds, the "required" team size to actually balance around would have been closer to eight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angedechu Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Simple. If an instance is made for 3 dps and you had a 4th and a 5th one, what part of challenge will remain ? (you will need to tweak the numbers of mobs, their HP, their damage...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liwilliams Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 While I see your point, they are trying to smooth it over with dual specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabethchase Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Simple. If an instance is made for 3 dps and you had a 4th and a 5th one, what part of challenge will remain ? (you will need to tweak the numbers of mobs, their HP, their damage...) duh, he said that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pscyon Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) I would've loved seeing more Black Talonish flashpoints personally; possible to do with 2-3 people and companions. Bigger group size would be nice but, as others have said, it's probably hard to rebuild the party system at this point. Though I suppose new flashpoints could be built around a bigger number of players and you could go with a small operations group. That'd be trickier with group finder I imagine... On a slightly related note, it is possible to do some flashpoints without a tank or with anything else replacing a DPS if you group up the regular way, i.e. not via group finder. It's not ideal and certainly not a good idea for -all- flashpoints, but it works for some. Edited March 28, 2013 by Pscyon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnAskham Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) Chalk it up as another noob MMO developer mistake, like launching with 100s of small servers while stating things like a group finder were not needed. Some of the design decisions make little sense and impede the ability of the game to truly shine, and unfortunatly, like this one, probably will never be changed as doing so would require a lot more effort and development dollars than EA would ever be willing to spend. Edited March 28, 2013 by DawnAskham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 The four player group is standard DnD. Warrior - Tank Wizard - Controller Cleric - Healer Rogue - DPS EQ copied these basics. WoW copied EQ and removed the Controller by spreading it's abilities to the other 3, and by spreading around more DPS to everyone to further simplify it. TOR's game mechanics and concepts come from a direct line through those 3 games. That's why it's still built around the 4 player core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Hmm... I don't know. After playing MMOs that claim not to have a trinity I have come to the conclusion that no matter what... a trinity evolves anyway. Otherwise... it is just a scrambled zerg fest with not real strategy or coherent game play. In short, I don't mind the specs. Dual specs will help, but hey... if you are dps, you should know you are a dime a dozen. If you don't like waiting, then maybe you should consider rolling heals or a tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theUndead Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 It's not a bad idea, but I believe it's a little late for Bioware to retune flashpoints to require 6 people and actually have the content balanced. As well, I would bet that 4,912 angry posts decrying this change would appear in this very forum moments after implementation. Not flaming. But could you explain to me how having 6 people would balance the content? How is it unbalanced if I may ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KariTalRathe Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) Only the GF dictates a set role system and even then you can respec/play outside your chosen role. The GF is a tool to be used for convenience, it is neiher definitive or absolute. Edited March 28, 2013 by KariTalRathe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabethchase Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Not flaming. But could you explain to me how having 6 people would balance the content? How is it unbalanced if I may ask. Because tanks get an instant que and dps takes forever to pop. He laid out, extremely clearly, that the game would have to be rebalanced for more dps which is the core of his proposal. Rebalance the content to even out the supply of roles so everyone groups up with an even chance to get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) Not flaming. But could you explain to me how having 6 people would balance the content? How is it unbalanced if I may ask. Thats not what he said... Just ignore the last 6 words, as they don't have any relevance to his actual message. I dont know why it was included. Anyway, my take is similar, though I wouldn't mind if they did change it to 6, and I dont believe it would be hard, just a bit of time to retune the Flashpoints via buffing the hit points and adding some more trash for the most part, and some bosses would need routines changed or altered. Edited March 28, 2013 by Mowermanx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KariTalRathe Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 If they retuned the FPs, we wouldnt be able to 2-man them underlevel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyfy Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Simple. If an instance is made for 3 dps and you had a 4th and a 5th one, what part of challenge will remain ? (you will need to tweak the numbers of mobs, their HP, their damage...) Well yeah it would stand to reason that they would have to revamp the FPs after a change like that. I guess I just thought that part went without saying when I read the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyfy Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 The four player group is standard DnD. Warrior - Tank Wizard - Controller Cleric - Healer Rogue - DPS EQ copied these basics. WoW copied EQ and removed the Controller by spreading it's abilities to the other 3, and by spreading around more DPS to everyone to further simplify it. TOR's game mechanics and concepts come from a direct line through those 3 games. That's why it's still built around the 4 player core. DnD groups were often run with 5 also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyfy Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Hmm... I don't know. After playing MMOs that claim not to have a trinity I have come to the conclusion that no matter what... a trinity evolves anyway. Otherwise... it is just a scrambled zerg fest with not real strategy or coherent game play. In short, I don't mind the specs. Dual specs will help, but hey... if you are dps, you should know you are a dime a dozen. If you don't like waiting, then maybe you should consider rolling heals or a tank. Again DDO does not use the trinity format, CoH/V also managed to at least somewhat get away from the pure trinity standard. The games are out there but definitely are not as abundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uvirith Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 4 is a terrible number for a group, I said that the moment I heard about it way before beta. I even started a petition to enhance it to 6 back in the beta-forums. They didnt reconsider, now we are stuck with groups with only 2 DDspots and no playe to put in additional underequipped friends/guildmates. When TOR was new there were many people left out of the initial gaming experience. As Guilleader and Tank I had to run most dungeons multiple times so all the DDs in the guild could see them. annoying, to say the least, but not changable anymore. One thing I know for sure, I will never play an mmo again with groups under 6 people in Dungeons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming_Ziva Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 A lot of PUG healers have a hard time healing three other people and you want them to heal five? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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