Cathar CC only?

[TheSeventhJedi]

Since the bind timers wore off. Try searching "Legacy Species Unlock"

 

Yeah, I managed to unlock them all on the cheap thanks to people posting them really low - now if I decide to roll an alt, I don't have any selections greyed out. It's a kinda nice feeling.

[JimG]

Really BW is it CC only.

 

Old news. They said that months ago. They also said the addition of any more species will depend on how well the Cathar do.

[Vandicus]

I'm a bit dubious about the supposed cost of developing a new race. Give that A. Race in TOR is purely cosmetic, and B. Cathar, along with several other races are all ready in game as both companions and enemies, which means they all ready have models, animations and equipment models to fit.

 

They have some character models(not the full variety we use for customization), very few animations for the race, and the equipment models that a Cathar of a particular body type uses already in game. Now I suppose they could introduce a race with very limited cosmetic choices, and specific body type and armor appearance restrictions, and also have them be virtually unreactive in cutscenes, but the player base would likely be very upset. The devs have discussed this in more detail before, but basically just because certain models for a race are in game, doesn't mean that its by any means an easy process to make them a decent player race.

 

On the other hand, while it is expensive, it is not "building a new game expensive". I don't think you have much to worry about them producing more races after Cathar(though if your race preference isn't particularly popular, that might be something to worry about). Its not like half the player base has to buy it to justify the cost.

[Philastra]

Old news. They said that months ago. They also said the addition of any more species will depend on how well the Cathar do.

 

How well they do translates into " If we can sell those what else can we sell?" They say the CM has enabled development for subs, i'm still waiting, do the math, they are making money, even if the do have only 200k subs, that's 3 mill a month, not saying running this game is cheap now add that 3 mill with the ppl who spend money on the cartel that 3 mill increases a lot.

 

So where s the development for subs, for me i'm not really seeing the return in relation to whats being done, which the Cathar, Barbershop should be included for the subs.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Philastra

[jovianus]

They have some character models(not the full variety we use for customization), very few animations for the race, and the equipment models that a Cathar of a particular body type uses already in game. Now I suppose they could introduce a race with very limited cosmetic choices, and specific body type and armor appearance restrictions, and also have them be virtually unreactive in cutscenes, but the player base would likely be very upset. The devs have discussed this in more detail before, but basically just because certain models for a race are in game, doesn't mean that its by any means an easy process to make them a decent player race.

 

That doesn't really fly with Cathar. They are literally just recolored humans, their animations/equipment models would be identical, so the only development required is customization options. They don't even have the Twi'lek (or theoretically Togrutan/Nuatolan/Kel-Dor etc) issue of tentacles/other weird bits interfering with some equipment and animations.

Edited March 21, 2013 by jovianus

[JunkyardWolf]

here let me replace the body on your Yugo! it looks real cool now dount it! no you dont get new roads to drive,just the same old one. so what if you drove em 100 times you will look cooler now.

[ZionHalcyon]

I can see them charging for an all new species. Other games do that all the time. But charging real money for character re-customization? That's just freaking low. If that's true you need to reign in your freaking marketing dogs BioWare. The nickel and diming for every little thing must stop.

 

 

Oh puhlease.

 

DDO has added character customizations you can buy in their DDO store - paying cash to customize your character cosmetically is nothing new to the world of cash shops either.

[oJebuso]

So I paid for an expansion which advertises the Cathar as a playable race and that's not good enough? I have to buy the *********** race on top of the expansion to get it? Please tell me I'm understanding this incorrectly.

 

edit: I can't find anything about the race on the expansion info sheet, though I could have SWORN that was a feature of the expansion.

Edited March 21, 2013 by oJebuso

[Ireul]

A new race is exactly the type thing I pay a sub for, I am really hoping BW at least clarifies this with a statement.

 

If the new content that's being produced will be CC only, it will say a lot how you view your subscribers.

 

Fun Fact #1: As a sub I get 600 Cartel Coins a month (500 for sub, 100 for security key).

Fun Fact #2: We don't have a CC price for the Cathar race. It could be 600, 2000, or even 50 CCs.

 

So stop griping about a feature that doesn't exist yet then saying it's subscriber entitlement. So you'll have to spend some CCs, big deal. You'll get them back after a few months. Now if they make the price really high, then you should gripe and I'll be there griping along with you, but until then just stop and watch.

 

So I paid for an expansion which advertises the Cathar as a playable race and that's not good enough? I have to buy the *********** race on top of the expansion to get it? Please tell me I'm understanding this incorrectly.

 

edit: I can't find anything about the race on the expansion info sheet, though I could have SWORN that was a feature of the expansion.

 

When Makeb was first announced last summer they advertised a lot of things in the same video (new lvl 55 cap, Cathar race, and new space missions). Many people thought that meant the new expansion would include Makeb, a new level cap, new space missions, and a new race. However, they never explicitly said said any of it would be in the expansion. For example, those space missions are now the Heroic space missions (minus the one where we fly through a space station; I'm hoping that's in the expansion). So basically, they showed off a lot of new stuff at once and everyone thought we'd get it in the same package, when reality is we aren't.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Ireul

[Chiramu]

Cathar as a CC option is fine, don't really need to play them anyway.

[Blackavaar]

Oh puhlease.

 

DDO has added character customizations you can buy in their DDO store - paying cash to customize your character cosmetically is nothing new to the world of cash shops either.

 

They charge for additional customization options, yeah. That's like STO charging for new uniform options. That's fine. But that's not the same as charging for changing your appearance to customization options that already exist.

 

This would be more like Champions Online charging you to use their Tailors. Sorry, but no game that has in-game re-customization charges for it, not even the Sims.

 

[oJebuso]

When Makeb was first announced last summer they advertised a lot of things in the same video (new lvl 55 cap, Cathar race, and new space missions). Many people thought that meant the new expansion would include Makeb, a new level cap, new space missions, and a new race. However, they never explicitly said said any of it would be in the expansion. For example, those space missions are now the Heroic space missions (minus the one where we fly through a space station; I'm hoping that's in the expansion). So basically, they showed off a lot of new stuff at once and everyone thought we'd get it in the same package, when reality is we aren't.

Thats really shady, bordering on false advertising imo.

[chuixupu]

They charge for additional customization options, yeah. That's like STO charging for new uniform options. That's fine. But that's not the same as charging for changing your appearance to customization options that already exist.

 

This would be more like Champions Online charging you to use their Tailors. Sorry, but no game that has in-game re-customization charges for it, not even the Sims.

 

 

Wow charges you $15 for recustomization - for options that exist. You have an in-game barber shop, yes, but that mostly only allows you to change hair. Some races you can change horns/jewely (all 3-5 barely noticeable options) If you want to change the color of your skin, change your face, change race, gender, faction, all require real money. WoW has the most dismal choices in character appearance anyway, though, it's not even worth doing. :/

[DarthTHC]

The video that Jeff Hickman did right before the holidays stated that. I'll have to go look. He said that they would do other species depending on how well the Cathar did on the Cartel Market.

 

Ought to be interesting. CM is a deterrent to adoption. Now if they added tails and made them a bit fluffier, the furries might overcome that deterrent.

[chuixupu]

I would totally buy a tail for Cathar.

[Khayleth]

Who cares about the new races? Every race is just a recolor of the same generic human model, no difference in armor style or stances at all (not even for specs that have a unique stance or fighting style like ataru, shien, soresu, etc, or a left handed option for sith purebloods that are generally left handed as opposed to right), unless they add some unique differences to it just don't bother spending money on it.

[kevlarto]

I can see them charging for an all new species. Other games do that all the time. But charging real money for character re-customization? That's just freaking low. If that's true you need to reign in your freaking marketing dogs BioWare. The nickel and diming for every little thing must stop.

 

 

Yea it is low blow, in fact the whole Stateless of the game #3 is pretty much a joke.. /sigh

Edited March 21, 2013 by kevlarto

[Philastra]

Ok I guess...I can see it being Ok if it is a cosmetic thing only, however do the cathar come with a story? Do they have Voice overs that are unique? This is the stuff I think subs should get, so if it comes with NO new content then yeah sell all the diff skins for toons they want, but all story content should be fully available for subs w/o the CM.

[Khayleth]

Ok I guess...I can see it being Ok if it is a cosmetic thing only, however do the cathar come with a story? Do they have Voice overs that are unique? This is the stuff I think subs should get, so if it comes with NO new content then yeah sell all the diff skins for toons they want, but all story content should be fully available for subs w/o the CM.

 

As far as we know they are exactly what the races are now, just a re-skin. Same voice, animations, etc. with just a different template on the character, no special story, no special reactions from npc's, just a re-skin.

 

Edit: Technically the Cathar that are loyal to the empire have a background story that pops up on belsavis but I highly doubt they will reference it, the cathar empire characters we play will just be the same as any other in the story.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Khayleth

[eldefail]

Ok I guess...I can see it being Ok if it is a cosmetic thing only, however do the cathar come with a story? Do they have Voice overs that are unique? This is the stuff I think subs should get, so if it comes with NO new content then yeah sell all the diff skins for toons they want, but all story content should be fully available for subs w/o the CM.

 

I doubt it. The other races do not have different voices, all Inquisitors have the same voice sets, regardless of race, all Troopers have the same voice sets, regardless of race. Each class has a story and a voice acter for each gender, however it doesn't vary with race other than those odd moments when you are acknowledged as being non-human.

 

Cathar will likely use the same voices as everybody else of whichever class you choose. No new animations, nothing like that. It would cost a small fortune to customize Cathar to make them distinct from every other race in that regard.

 

Furthermore adding races with massive tentacles and such is difficult, as it introduces so many clipping issues that animations have to be re-tweaked, camera angles adjusted, etc. Even races of different heights would break every single cutscene in game, which would have to be redone to work with a tall or short race that deviates out of the existing height range.

[Darth-Obvious]

That's the point. Other games include the new race with their expansion. Obviously I said not in SWToR land because it is not other games. More comments to just argue for the sake of argue. Yay!

 

That's not true. By "other" games you're no doubt primarily referring to WoW, but remind me, what race did Blizzard add in Wrath of The Lich King?

 

Also I gotta imagine that every Everquest didn't add a new race. Not to mention how many companies now days actually release Expansion Packs aside from Blizzard? Note something that is specifically titled as an Expansion Pack, not DLC, are a Mission Pack, but an actual Expansion Pack. The truth is that they don't really exist any more, especially with the advent of DLC and in game shops.

 

here let me replace the body on your Yugo! it looks real cool now dount it! no you dont get new roads to drive,just the same old one. so what if you drove em 100 times you will look cooler now.

 

Why do people do this? Equate video games to cars as if the two existed on remotely even levels.

 

So I paid for an expansion which advertises the Cathar as a playable race and that's not good enough? I have to buy the *********** race on top of the expansion to get it? Please tell me I'm understanding this incorrectly.

 

edit: I can't find anything about the race on the expansion info sheet, though I could have SWORN that was a feature of the expansion.

 

Thats really shady, bordering on false advertising imo.

 

What, no it's not.

 

Go back and watch the stage presentation or the trailer that was shown at the end of that presentation*

 

The trailer (if you actually take a minute to watch it instead of assuming things) is all centered around "COMING TO TOR IN 2012" <- Now that part you can argue is false advertising, however that video was never sold as an expansion pack. There is no talk of an expansion pack in it nor was it ever sold that way.

 

It was like the other poster said. People saw all those things together in a single video and assumed they'd all be released at once, however nothing in the stage presentation or trailer suggests that especially since it explicitly states "Coming to The Old Republic in 2012" It was just a sizzle reel, know what that is?

 

*Note that the trailer shown on stage at E3 included the Cathar, but when that trailer was sent out to outlets the Cathar footage wasn't in the trailer. There was never any explanation as to why.

[Darth-Obvious]

How well they do translates into " If we can sell those what else can we sell?" They say the CM has enabled development for subs, i'm still waiting, do the math, they are making money, even if the do have only 200k subs, that's 3 mill a month, not saying running this game is cheap now add that 3 mill with the ppl who spend money on the cartel that 3 mill increases a lot.

 

So where s the development for subs, for me i'm not really seeing the return in relation to whats being done, which the Cathar, Barbershop should be included for the subs.

 

The truth of the of the matter is you don't know what anything costs. You don't know how much it costs to maintain the servers, generate new art assets, record dialogue, or anything else in game development. The reality is however that it's ALWAYS going to be more expensive than you think it is.

 

There is a really great article on Giant Bomb by Patrick Klepek about this subject in relation to the game Skull Girls. The dev team for Skull Girls put up a $150,000 Kickstarter for a single new character to be added. Once again note a single character for a 2D fighting game that was only released digitally. Seems insane or unbelievable that it would cost that much right?

 

Here's a snipit from the article...

 

Trying to raise at least $150,000 was picked for a very specific reason: it was the money Lab Zero Games needed. Often, crowdfunding projects will ask for roughly half of what it actually needs to complete what it’s really promising. There is a psychological effect to crowdfunding, and people want to back a winner. A winner is likely to exceed its funding goal, and get closer to its real goal. The Skullgirls developers actually broke down development costs, hoping to persuade people this was reality:

 

 

• $48,000: Staff Salaries - 8 people for 10 weeks

• $30,000: Animation and Clean-up Contracting

• $4,000: Voice recording

• $2,000: Hit-box Contracting

• $5,000: Audio Implementation Contracting

• $20,000: QA Testing

• $10,000: 1st Party Certification

• $10,500: IndieGoGo and Payment Processing Fees

• $20,500: Manufacturing and Shipping Physical Rewards

 

“We’ve always tried to be really transparent,” said Bartholow. “ [...] We’ve always taken a kind of Game Dev 101 approach to all of this. People don’t know anything about game development, and the people that you think might know something, know shockingly little.”

 

Other developers I’ve talked to back up Lab Zero Games’ claims.

 

The rest of the article can be found here...

 

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/the-little-fighting-game-that-could/1100-4587/

 

Now you may ask yourself why all companies (like Bioware) aren't this transparent, but they can't be. PR would never allow them divulge specific information like that. Alot of developers wish they can/could talk about that type of stuff with people, but sadly they're not allowed to.

 

In light of all this though, I present this question. Would you rather have things the way they are now (the CM, etc) or have every new feature Kickstarted? You may lean towards Kickstarter thinking that the masses would get exactly what they wanted, but probably wouldn't believe the goal amount or wouldn't be able to generate it. Given those figures above for a single fighting game character take a guess at how much it be to add something like a Chapter 4 to the class stories.

 

I'm fine with buying new races through the Cartel Market, I just don't like the idea that future races are going to depend on how well the Cathar do. Why do I have to buy something I have no interest in in order to have the possibility of something I like in the future?

 

It would be like if they had put a single set of Inquisitor-only Armor on the CM and then said, "Maybe we'll add more stuff later if this sells well.". The CM would have tanked in a week.

 

I'm a bit dubious about the supposed cost of developing a new race. Give that A. Race in TOR is purely cosmetic (ie, there are no stat differences, racial abilities, racial bonuses etc that need to be developed or balanced), and B. Cathar, along with several other races are all ready in game as both companions and enemies, which means they all ready have models, animations and equipment models to fit. Cathar in particular are literally just recolored humans, they don't even have the 'odd bits sticking off issue' with armor/helmets that Twi'Leks/Togrutans/Nautolans etc do/would.

 

If they want us to pay real money for a race to cover 'development' costs, I'd rather see a race that requires some development, not just a recolor of what all ready exists in game.

 

That doesn't really fly with Cathar. They are literally just recolored humans, their animations/equipment models would be identical, so the only development required is customization options. They don't even have the Twi'lek (or theoretically Togrutan/Nuatolan/Kel-Dor etc) issue of tentacles/other weird bits interfering with some equipment and animations.

 

Take a second and think about the history of the Cathar in terms of this game.

 

1) The were announced via a stage presentation/trailer at E3 2012, almost a year ago. The trailer that went out to media outlets didn't contain the Cathar footage and Bioware almost acted like they never announced them in the first place.

 

2) The only other info we got about them between then and now was that they'd would have to be purchased and would influence the decision for other species. A trailer was also released that showed a Cathar Smuggler.

 

And that's it. Do you think that maybe, just maybe somewhere along the way they discovered that adding the Cathar was actually more difficult, time consuming, and resource intensive than they originally thought?

 

In your mind you're making it out to be this very simple thing of "all the work is already done" but did you ever stop and think that if that's the case why the nearly complete black out on the Cathar in terms of what was being said?

 

Also lets assume, note assume not state our opinion as fact, are easy to add to TOR, or even the easiest of all current in game species to add. Now money does have to be spent to pay employees to generate new art assets for them, ie hair, complexions, patterns, etc, along with whatever amount of coding it requires for them to be added into the game, the menus, and whatever else that needs to recognize a new species. All of that stuff then gives them a number to put on how long it takes to do and how much costs.

 

Once they have all that information Bioware is then able to gauge how resource intensive it would be to add any other race and let's face it the other most requested races would take longer to do than Cathar. The Cathar are a good measuring stick for them.

 

You may think you have it all figured it out or know what it takes but as I pointed out to the OC above, you really don't. Unless you actually work in the industry or know people that do, you really don't know how things get done and/or at what cost. Everything is always more complicated than you think/assume it is.

[saremun]

The truth of the of the matter is you don't know what anything costs. You don't know how much it costs to maintain the servers, generate new art assets, record dialogue, or anything else in game development. The reality is however that it's ALWAYS going to be more expensive than you think it is.

 

There is a really great article on Giant Bomb by Patrick Klepek about this subject in relation to the game Skull Girls. The dev team for Skull Girls put up a $150,000 Kickstarter for a single new character to be added. Once again note a single character for a 2D fighting game that was only released digitally. Seems insane or unbelievable that it would cost that much right?

 

Here's a snipit from the article...

 

 

 

The rest of the article can be found here...

 

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/the-little-fighting-game-that-could/1100-4587/

 

Now you may ask yourself why all companies (like Bioware) aren't this transparent, but they can't be. PR would never allow them divulge specific information like that. Alot of developers wish they can/could talk about that type of stuff with people, but sadly they're not allowed to.

 

In light of all this though, I present this question. Would you rather have things the way they are now (the CM, etc) or have every new feature Kickstarted? You may lean towards Kickstarter thinking that the masses would get exactly what they wanted, but probably wouldn't believe the goal amount or wouldn't be able to generate it. Given those figures above for a single fighting game character take a guess at how much it be to add something like a Chapter 4 to the class stories.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take a second and think about the history of the Cathar in terms of this game.

 

1) The were announced via a stage presentation/trailer at E3 2012, almost a year ago. The trailer that went out to media outlets didn't contain the Cathar footage and Bioware almost acted like they never announced them in the first place.

 

2) The only other info we got about them between then and now was that they'd would have to be purchased and would influence the decision for other species. A trailer was also released that showed a Cathar Smuggler.

 

And that's it. Do you think that maybe, just maybe somewhere along the way they discovered that adding the Cathar was actually more difficult, time consuming, and resource intensive than they originally thought?

 

In your mind you're making it out to be this very simple thing of "all the work is already done" but did you ever stop and think that if that's the case why the nearly complete black out on the Cathar in terms of what was being said?

 

Also lets assume, note assume not state our opinion as fact, are easy to add to TOR, or even the easiest of all current in game species to add. Now money does have to be spent to pay employees to generate new art assets for them, ie hair, complexions, patterns, etc, along with whatever amount of coding it requires for them to be added into the game, the menus, and whatever else that needs to recognize a new species. All of that stuff then gives them a number to put on how long it takes to do and how much costs.

 

Once they have all that information Bioware is then able to gauge how resource intensive it would be to add any other race and let's face it the other most requested races would take longer to do than Cathar. The Cathar are a good measuring stick for them.

 

You may think you have it all figured it out or know what it takes but as I pointed out to the OC above, you really don't. Unless you actually work in the industry or know people that do, you really don't know how things get done and/or at what cost. Everything is always more complicated than you think/assume it is.

 

nice wall of text BUT this is all nothing more than words twisting and low level of money milking, they are low enough to make the Subscribers as 2st in the game then they came up with this new idea of the Barbershop which is once more Dump and so messed up. i know its easy to be incompetent BioWare but at least try.

Edited March 22, 2013 by saremun

[jovianus]

Furthermore adding races with massive tentacles and such is difficult, as it introduces so many clipping issues that animations have to be re-tweaked, camera angles adjusted, etc. Even races of different heights would break every single cutscene in game, which would have to be redone to work with a tall or short race that deviates out of the existing height range.

 

Which is why I would be fine with paying real money via the Cartel Market for them, but paying real money because they did all the tremendous hard work of...adding a few color options to the basic customization options, and then being told they won't make such a herculean effort again unless enough people pay is ridiculous.

 

Cathar are human models with extra colors, eyes and fangs. No special modelling, no special animations, no special equipment models required.

 

Give us an actual unique alien race and if it doesn't sell fine, obviously the market isn't there for it and I'll accept that. But "Keep giving us money for recolored humans and maybe one day we'll think about entertaining the possibility of something else." is not an attractive proposition.

Edited March 22, 2013 by jovianus

[LadyKohastFel]

Which is why I would be fine with paying real money via the Cartel Market for them, but paying real money because they did all the tremendous hard work of...adding a few color options to the basic customization options, and then being told they won't make such a herculean effort again unless enough people pay is ridiculous.

 

Cathar are human models with extra colors, eyes and fangs. No special modelling, no special animations, no special equipment models required.

 

Give us an actual unique alien race and if it doesn't sell fine, obviously the market isn't there for it and I'll accept that. But "Keep giving us money for recolored humans and maybe one day we'll think about entertaining the possibility of something else." is not an attractive proposition.

 

The Cathar will in all likelihood have a racial special that will be completely different to the other races.

And this will probably be animated if the other racial specials are anything to go by.