Selecting need for loot

[Ratajack]

Except when you hit Greed, you're saying "I deserve this loot drop just as much as the rest of you"

 

When you hit Need, you're saying "I deserve this loot drop MORE than the rest of you"

 

Incorrect.

 

When you hit greed, you are saying "Although I am AS deserving of this piece of loot as the rest of the group, I will defer to those who may feel they would benefit from the upgraded stats more than I think I would."

 

When you hit need, you are saying "I am AS deserving as you are to that piece of loot I helped produce, not more deserving, just AS deserving. "

[Wraiven]

Incorrect.

 

When you hit greed, you are saying "Although I am AS deserving of this piece of loot as the rest of the group, I will defer to those who may feel they would benefit from the upgraded stats more than I think I would."

 

When you hit need, you are saying "I am AS deserving as you are to that piece of loot I helped produce, not more deserving, just AS deserving. "

 

 

Wow, 90 pages later, you just don't give up, do you?

[Ratajack]

And what exactly is physically or psychically preventing you from taking the 'less than 15 seconds' to type 'can I need for my companion'?

 

 

 

Nothing is preventing anyone from taking the "less than 15 seconds" to type "can I need for my companion". The trouble is that neither side wants to communicate, and those that expect "social convention" want to put the blame squarely and solely on the other side, and it is not solely any one side's responsibility. If neither side is going to communicate, then those that expect "social convention" to be followed feel that they are justified because it's "social convention" after all. Those that choose not to follow "social convention" may feel justified because they are following the loot rules the devs-- you know, the ones who created and designed the game- put in place. Both sides should take the couple of minutes to ensure that all parties in the group are on the same page, rather than each member assuming their own personal preference is in effect.

[Khevar]

Incorrect.

 

When you hit greed, you are saying "Although I am AS deserving of this piece of loot as the rest of the group, I will defer to those who may feel they would benefit from the upgraded stats more than I think I would."

 

When you hit need, you are saying "I am AS deserving as you are to that piece of loot I helped produce, not more deserving, just AS deserving. "

I believe that Greed is the fair choice. If everyone Greeds, everyone gets a fair chance at the loot. And that Need is the exception.

 

You believe that Need is the fair choice. If everyone Needs, everyone gets a fair chance at the loot. And Greed is the exception.

 

Thus, the philosophical divide.

[Stressfire]

In the name of all that is holy - this is still going? - we are talking about collections of electrons and digital images here.

 

It's not like you can't just run the FP/Op again and get another try at getting another chance at the Epic Warblade of Whosit Whatsisface.

 

Get hosed by someone on a roll? Ignore them if you like, shame them in general chat if you think it was malicious. But seriously, these are not one of a kind, never to be seen again items.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Stressfire

[Wraiven]

Nothing is preventing anyone from taking the "less than 15 seconds" to type "can I need for my companion". The trouble is that neither side wants to communicate, and those that expect "social convention" want to put the blame squarely and solely on the other side, and it is not solely any one side's responsibility. If neither side is going to communicate, then those that expect "social convention" to be followed feel that they are justified because it's "social convention" after all. Those that choose not to follow "social convention" may feel justified because they are following the loot rules the devs-- you know, the ones who created and designed the game- put in place. Both sides should take the couple of minutes to ensure that all parties in the group are on the same page, rather than each member assuming their own personal preference is in effect.

 

I find this ridiculous. Here you are basically saying, that you did not know that coffee was hot, just because all other cups of coffee that come from McDonalds is hot, does not mean they should all be hot, therefore when you spill that cup of coffee on yourself, you should be allowed to sue them because you did not know that cup of coffee was hot.

 

Even though that woman actually won that lame argument in a court of law, does not mean that same argument should be applied here. The law should not have to indulge in creating new laws for people's lack of understanding and ignorance. The Developers should not *have* to come up with a whole new system just because you...and the few people like you want to go against the grain of how the loot system has evolved for almost all MMO players over the course of 20 years.

 

Do the Devs *really* need to change how the loot system works just because you want to abuse it? Do they really need to sit at a big table in a conference room and discuss how they can change the looting system because you and players like you want to abuse that system...and waste money that could be going elsewhere putting this new more complicated system in place?

 

Man, you kill me with your so called logic. It is only logic to you...anyone else with half a brain can see you are just inventing ways to justify yourself. And yes, all you are doing is justifying what you already know is wrong, in order to make it right in your own head.

[HakkaP]

Jesus this is still going...

 

Think about this for a sec... What if everyone rolls need for companions? Any remotely good item would get 3-4 needs. Think for a sec how hard it would be to get an upgrade for your character. If everyone does that, you could as well remove this loot system all together.

[Khevar]

...

 

Both sides should take the couple of minutes to ensure that all parties in the group are on the same page, rather than each member assuming their own personal preference is in effect.

Hypothetically here.

 

I go into a pug. I clarify the loot rules at the start. Everyone says some variation of "duh we know"

I go into another pug. I clarify the loot rules at the start. Same thing happens.

etc.

 

Eventually, I'm going to stop asking.

 

The reason I bring up this hypothetical situation, is that I have already reached this point. Practically every single pug group follows the same philosophy. Someone who Needs for a companion either a) didn't know the commonly-accepted "social convention" and I'm happy to tell them, or b) doesn't agree with the commonly-accepted "social convention"

 

If it is b) then it is their responsibility to clarify loot rules.

[KariTalRathe]

Ironically, there is another thread from a guy who was kicked from a FP twice in a row. Reason? He was 'hoarding' all the inquisitor gear that dropped, despite the fact he was already kitted out in top gear for his level.

 

Let this be a lesson to believers of the 'convention'. Democracy can also be used against you for using the loot system in a greedy manner

Edited March 30, 2013 by KariTalRathe

[KariTalRathe]

Something else to think about.

 

Not all classes are equal when it comes to primary stats. That is, some class companions are heavily weighted to share the same primary stat as your character's class, while others are less fortunate. If you are in the former group and need on an item for your class, chances are that means an upgrade for your companion too as he or she receives your hand-me-downs. Meanwhile, the classes in the second category are totally screwed over by the loot convention, which some of you claim to be fair!

[HakkaP]

This problem could be easily avoided by bioware.

 

They could a) introduce need for a companion button. b) If they dont want it for some reason. A tip message in flashpoint loading screen explaining what is the norm of the loot system, but feel free to have discuss it with your group.

[KariTalRathe]

This problem could be easily avoided by bioware.

 

They could a) introduce need for a companion button. b) If they dont want it for some reason. A tip message in flashpoint loading screen explaining what is the norm of the loot system, but feel free to have discuss it with your group.

 

No, it could be avoided by players actually being fair instead of hiding behind a convention to be greedy. Don't make assumptions about what other characters 'need' - only the players of said character can be the true judge of that - and sort out loot rules before any problems arise.

[Khevar]

Ironically, there is another thread from a guy who was kicked from a FP twice in a row. Reason? He was 'hoarding' all the inquisitor gear that dropped, despite the fact he was already kitted out in top gear for his level.

 

Let this be a lesson to believers of the 'convention'. Democracy can also be used against you for using the loot system in a greedy manner

 

Something else to think about.

 

Not all classes are equal when it comes to primary stats. That is, some class companions are heavily weighted to share the same primary stat as your character's class, while others are less fortunate. If you are in the former group and need on an item for your class, chances are that means an upgrade for your companion too as he or she receives your hand-me-downs. Meanwhile, the classes in the second category are totally screwed over by the loot convention, which some of you claim to be fair!

 

I would say both of these examples are of people abusing the Need / Greed system.

 

Edit: To clarify. If you are a Commando needing on an aim gear when it's not an upgrade, that's worse than needing for a companion, because it is dishonest. At least if you said, "Can I need for my companion", it's straightforward

Edited March 30, 2013 by Khevar

[HakkaP]

No, it could be avoided by players actually being fair instead of hiding behind a convention to be greedy. Don't make assumptions about what other characters 'need' - only the players of said character can be the true judge of that - and sort out loot rules before any problems arise.

 

Yeah like that would ever work. You would have a complete anarchy at looting. And of course the nice guys would allways finish last. Sorry if you have only one when comp with same stats. Deal with it, or deal with the democracy.

[Ratajack]

Hypothetically here.

 

I go into a pug. I clarify the loot rules at the start. Everyone says some variation of "duh we know"

I go into another pug. I clarify the loot rules at the start. Same thing happens.

etc.

 

Eventually, I'm going to stop asking.

 

The reason I bring up this hypothetical situation, is that I have already reached this point. Practically every single pug group follows the same philosophy. Someone who Needs for a companion either a) didn't know the commonly-accepted "social convention" and I'm happy to tell them, or b) doesn't agree with the commonly-accepted "social convention"

 

If it is b) then it is their responsibility to clarify loot rules.

 

 

But that is just the point. You are now ASSUMING that everyone knows and is on the same page. We both know that is not always the case. I also know that it is much easier for people to blame "the other guy" than it is to admit that maybe they might need to shoulder at least some of the fault or that they could have done something differently.

 

This "it's not my fault" syndome is demonstrated by the McDonald's lawsuit mentioned in an earlier thread. That woman refused to accept the responsibility and wanted to put the blame solely on McDonald's. Now at every McDonald's you'll see signs warning that the coffee is hot. These are there in order for McDonald's to protect themselves.

 

In my opinion, if I am not willing to take the 15 seconds to make sure that everyone else in my group is on the same page I am, then I forfeit my right to get bent out of shape when that person I ASSUMED was on the same page actually isn't. Heck, it may not even take 15 seconds. If you have a keyboard or mouse macro, it might only be a single keystroke.

[KariTalRathe]

I would say both of these examples are of people abusing the Need / Greed system.

 

Edit: To clarify. If you are a Commando needing on an aim gear when it's not an upgrade, that's worse than needing for a companion, because it is dishonest. At least if you said, "Can I need for my companion", it's straightforward

 

Nonetheless there are swathes of players who do just this, almost as many as there are those of us who pass on primary stat gear when we don't need it. This is why I say the convention fails when it comes to 'fairness', although I understand that in spirit at least it attempts to be fair.

[Khevar]

...

 

In my opinion, if I am not willing to take the 15 seconds to make sure that everyone else in my group is on the same page I am, then I forfeit my right to get bent out of shape when that person I ASSUMED was on the same page actually isn't. Heck, it may not even take 15 seconds. If you have a keyboard or mouse macro, it might only be a single keystroke.

I don't get bent out of shape.

 

If someone Needs on a gear that is obviously not for their toon (i.e. Mercenary needing on Willpower gear) I will say "Need is for main stat upgrades"

 

In my experience, the player is likely to say, "Oh, ok"

 

On one occasion, the player gave a hostile response and was promptly vote-kicked.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Khevar

[KariTalRathe]

Yeah like that would ever work. You would have a complete anarchy at looting. And of course the nice guys would allways finish last. Sorry if you have only one when comp with same stats. Deal with it, or deal with the democracy.

 

Have you ever tried it? It always works for me when I run a FP for a chance of a specific drop, not because it is an upgrade but because I like the look, or it will be an upgrade for my companion. I declare it right at the beginning and so far have not had one refusal...though obviously I may not win the roll.

[Khevar]

Nonetheless there are swathes of players who do just this, almost as many as there are those of us who pass on primary stat gear when we don't need it. This is why I say the convention fails when it comes to 'fairness', although I understand that in spirit at least it attempts to be fair.

You may be right. I haven't run into this very much myself, but I'm not going to say it doesn't happen.

 

I still believe that by communicating the ideal behind the "Need is for main stat upgrades", people who aren't this way would be willing to cooperate. If everyone only used Need on main stat upgrades, every player in the game would have a better chance of upgrading their character. I think it's a good thing.

 

... I declare it right at the beginning and so far have not had one refusal...though obviously I may not win the roll.

In my opinion, this is the 100% perfect solution. If you were to make your position known at the beginning of a flashpoint I was in, I would have no problem with it at all.

 

Edit: Actually, if I knew you were looking for a specific piece of loot that dropped in a flashpoint, I would probably Pass on it, just as a courtesy.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Khevar

[KariTalRathe]

Well we seem more in agreement than not. Which is great, cus mods come and go, it's all about the look

[Khevar]

Well we seem more in agreement than not. Which is great, cus mods come and go, it's all about the look

 

/5char

[HakkaP]

Have you ever tried it? It always works for me when I run a FP for a chance of a specific drop, not because it is an upgrade but because I like the look, or it will be an upgrade for my companion. I declare it right at the beginning and so far have not had one refusal...though obviously I may not win the roll.

 

Yeah no problem if you ask it right at the beginning. Allthough if its an upgrade for my character I would refuse, and in that case I think the other two players would back me up most of the time. Other thing... Lot of players run flashpoints just for fast xp, they dont really care about drops before lvl 50, cause tbh it doenst really matter especially in late 40s, cause you get free gear when you cap (something I really dislike in this game). People dont just like ninjas. If you ask about it before, many dont just care and accept. That is my theory anyway. In my time I have NEVER seen anyone ask for need companions. Few ninjas though.

Edited March 30, 2013 by HakkaP

[Jeweledleah]

Have you ever tried it? It always works for me when I run a FP for a chance of a specific drop, not because it is an upgrade but because I like the look, or it will be an upgrade for my companion. I declare it right at the beginning and so far have not had one refusal...though obviously I may not win the roll.

 

the key here is that you declare it at the beginning, giving other people opportunity to adjust. you don't just spring it on them, because you decided to ignore conventional assumption.

 

communication and all that.

 

I've needed for my companions. I needed for looks alone. I had ZERO problem with it. because I asked. conventional "need for upgrade, greed for everything else, ask otherwise" is default for majority of players. its default for a reason, as it allows the most people opportunity to upgrade their character. NO ONE is saying that you must stick to default no matter the cost. what people are saying is that its a problem, if you don't tell people that you plan on needed based on different criteria and just "surprise" the rest of the group.

 

I ignored one such player today. (granted, needing on everything wasn't the only issue I had with that player, but it was certainly one of them) he's going to have one less healer to random with. the other dps ignored as well. it might not seem like much right now, but do it long enough and you'll have no one to play with.

 

communicate, and/or stick to default conventions. accept that not everyone might go along with you wanting to need something that could be a personal upgrade. its really not that difficult.

[Esproc]

the key here is that you declare it at the beginning, giving other people opportunity to adjust. you don't just spring it on them, because you decided to ignore conventional assumption.

 

I've needed for my companions. I needed for looks alone. I had ZERO problem with it. because I asked. conventional "need for upgrade, greed for everything else, ask otherwise" is default for majority of players. its default for a reason, as it allows the most people opportunity to upgrade their character.

italics for emphasis.

 

This has been debated from before the game was even into Early Release.

 

It should go as follows, but many people have been numbed to any manners by other free for all games ..

 

Need, your character needs the item for an upgrade.

Greed, your character, companions, or desire to have said object for whatever purpose.

Pass, who cares? I don't want it.

 

If you need for everything, like another decrepit game, then bye, so lone, /ignore. No Jawa's allowed (sorry to the righteous Jawas out there, but you know you are a ninja type race, and prior decree decided your race become the new scapegrace).

[TannerJBanks]

For me no matter what MMO im playing i always want my character to look cool no mater what armor im wearing which is why i love the fact that orange is mod able in this game. And i hate thinking i miss a chance to discover a cool new piece of orange armor so im asking would you say most orange comes from hercs, fp, and random drops?