Kissakias Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 personally for me is NEED for your character GREED for companions, alts the problem is the materials materials are used from all crafters and for all classes so everybody can hit NEED if they like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearMyPower Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 I just wanted to keep the thread going! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KariTalRathe Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Tell you what. How all those who don't believe everyone should be entitled to a fair share of the loot, whether it is for themselves, their companions or the vendor leave your characters' names here so we can add you to an ignore list. Personally, I like to see everyone get something and I don't care if it comes from a need or greed roll. If you want to stick to your social conventions - I imagine you are the same type of people who demand only English in GC - then make sure you state those conventions at the beginning of the dungeon so others are free to leave if they choose or vote you down. Stand by your principles in game, instead of whining about the roll system here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharleyDanger Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 I accept this. What I do not accept is this overwhelming desire to punish or ostracize someone who doesn't act as I do. I try very hard to accept people who disagree with me, as I have been stating all along. I do not share the belief that just because "social convention" says one thing, that doing something not in accordance with "social convention" is "wrong" and cannot be tolerated. I recognize that there are those that hold that belief and they are no more "right" or "wrong" than I am. I do not expect others to share my views, and I do not try to force my views onto them. I'm simply trying to open a few minds, and maybe get a few people to be a little more tolerant of others who may not be as courteous as we would like them to be. I'm not saying don't put that person on your ignore list. Putting someone on your ignore list and finishing the instance is far different, though, from throwing the offender out on his ear, putting him on your ignore list, "naming and shaming" in general on fleet, spreading his name to every guild trying to get him blacklisted and ostracized or otherwise trying to make his life or gaming experience miserable. If a few more people take the time to finish the instance in tolerance, and quietly place the offender on their ignore list, that is enough. Does it take all that much to display a little tolerance for a few minutes, then ensure that you will not have to group with that person again, rather than getting all bent out of shape and possibly flying off the handle? Why can you not then accept that most feel passionately about not rolling need unless your main character needs it? If the OP has the right to use the need/greed system as he sees fit, then why cant the rest of the group not use the kick system as they see fit? You said "I do not try to force my views onto them" well what have you been doing for the past 50 pages? All we are saying is that we will kick the OP for rolling need, and you keep telling us that we are wrong. Page after page after page you keep telling us that our views are wrong. We understand that this whole matter is based on opinions. The OP has the opinion that it is ok to roll need for a companion. We have the opinion that it is ok to kick the OP for rolling need. You have the opinion that we are wrong for kicking the OP. The OP can keep needing for his comp. We can keep kicking the OP, and you can argue for another 100 pages and it will not change a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffo Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Is there a "Beating a dead taunton with a light saber" smiley anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 you know one good thing came out of this thread for me, personally. i thought I was a selfish person. I realized that compared to some of the people here? I'm definitely not. feels good. as for social conventions that are not written laws. 1. a lot of laws started out as social conventions, to be written down and made official later. 2. they are design to make life more pleasant for as many people as possible. here's a social convention. I'm relatively young. healthy. taking public transport somewhere. an old woman comes in, walking slowly, laboriously with a can. that public transport is pretty full, there is no place for her to sit, and only free place to stand is in front of me. there is no law anywhere that says I should give up my sit for her. that sit is comfortable, its certainly useful for me. but it is a nice, RIGHT thing to do. and the thing is, unlike giving up my sit on a crowded buss - NOT rolling need for my companion, unless group is ok with it will not result nearly in as much discomfort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomyne Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Came across two flashpoints yesterday where I was verbally talked down to by a gamer each time for winning loot for my companion. I dont understand the big deal. Why the sense of entitlement over another gamer? If I see an item that would be needed for my companion to equip im going to roll for it. If someone else wins it, cool, good for them as far as im concerned. If i win it f, suddenly there are problems. First flashpoint came across an item, i passed as neither i nor my companions needed it, Second one selected need for my tank. Got it. Third one, great for my tank, selected need, got it again. Then got told I was scum and voted off. Second one, passed on two items, third one great for my tank, selected need and was told I had no right if it was for my companion and that I cant select need. I say why not? Out of 13 loot drops in that flashpoint i chose need on 2. How is that greedy? As far as im concerned, im a paid subscriber. Why should some other gamer dictate to me what I can or cannot do to benefit them? If someone wants help on a mission or flashpoint and asks me, ill have no problem helping them but if i see something my tank needs, im selecting need. Im certainly not going to cry over it if someone else wins it. This sense of entitlement over someone else is baffling. There is no rulebook in the game that states that you cant do it and everyone who rolls for it has an equal chance Only select need if YOU need it. If you want it for a companion, click greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KariTalRathe Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) Only select need if YOU need it. If you want it for a companion, click greed. An upgrade for a DPS companion is a crucial and hugely beneficial upgrade for a healer specced character (for example). Not all classes are equal when it comes to need. To dismiss our companions as non-integral to our characters is nonsense - or do you swap gear when you're soloing and only use the FP dropped gear when you are actually in a FP? No, didn't think so. EDIT: Just want to add that Rata is not the only person to have views that differ to the social norm. If he were, threads like this would not exist. The very fact these threads exist at all just proves that your social norms are not as widespread as you like to believe. Edited March 30, 2013 by KariTalRathe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) An upgrade for a DPS companion is a crucial and hugely beneficial upgrade for a healer specced character (for example). Not all classes are equal when it comes to need. To dismiss our companions as non-integral to our characters is nonsense - or do you swap gear when you're soloing and only use the FP dropped gear when you are actually in a FP? No, didn't think so. Everyone has a companion. Everyone should have an opportunity to win loot. If everyone Greeds, everyone gets a fair chance at the loot. Simple. However, there is one exception that most players follow. If the loot drop in question is a direct upgrade to one of the main toons in the Heroic / Flashpoint, the player can Need on it. Effectively, the rest of the group is saying "Here, you can have this drop, it's yours" Generally speaking, players that subscribe to this rule, give away direct-upgrade-loot to another player, expecting the same courtesy will be given them later on. If you, as a healer, see a good piece of dps-companion loot, and think (for some reason) you are more deserving of this drop than everyone else in the group, feel free to ask first. Edited March 30, 2013 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KariTalRathe Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Don't confuse as deserving with more deserving. Seen a lot of that happen in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jovianus Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 An upgrade for a DPS companion is a crucial and hugely beneficial upgrade for a healer specced character (for example). Not all classes are equal when it comes to need. To dismiss our companions as non-integral to our characters is nonsense - or do you swap gear when you're soloing and only use the FP dropped gear when you are actually in a FP? How much did your companion contribute to the FP run? The key difference is that 9 times out of 10 upgrading your companion benefits you and only you. Whereas a player character getting an upgrade benefits everyone that person groups with because it makes them more effective in their role.. It's fine if your solo experience is your priority, but don't expect other players to hold your ease of soloing to be equal in priority to their group experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odawgg Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) I could see a need for discussion about a year ago when columi was this shiz nit. Need if ur a greedy SOB, greed if you're not (Ironic huh). Cuz Lord knows there's nothing worth keeping from flashpoints. Start a new thread when 2.0 hits and the FP loot is actually worth a damn again. Edited March 30, 2013 by odawgg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KariTalRathe Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 How much did your companion contribute to the FP run? The key difference is that 9 times out of 10 upgrading your companion benefits you and only you. Whereas a player character getting an upgrade benefits everyone that person groups with because it makes them more effective in their role.. It's fine if your solo experience is your priority, but don't expect other players to hold your ease of soloing to be equal in priority to their group experience. The FPs are level-based, our companions are integral to our levelling, they contributed to us being there! And once we are on to Ops, where we want to be as well geared as we can be, who is it running the missions with us to collect dailies and BH comms in order for us to achieve that? Companions again. And I am not the one with expectations here, it is the other side so to speak. What happened to the good old convention of actually talking to your fellow party members and sorting out loot rules before you begin? To attach convention that was applicable when the game was young and everyone was levelling their first character, is completely outdated in current terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icestar Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) The FPs are level-based, our companions are integral to our levelling, they contributed to us being there! Yes but the main reason for most of the community to do FPs is to gear up their character. I never do a FP with the objective to gear up someone elses companion that is not even used in the FP, regardless how much need they claim their companion has. If someone takes a item they should not have I simply initiate a vote kick and place the player on ignore. It is nothing personal but as I mentioned before I do not spend hours to gear up companions. However..... What happened to the good old convention of actually talking to your fellow party members and sorting out loot rules before you begin? To attach convention that was applicable when the game was young and everyone was levelling their first character, is completely outdated in current terms. If the player communicate and asks before rolling and the team agrees it will always be fine. If someone writes "character items need only and companion items greed only, OK?" and the team agrees then the lootrules are set before start and hopefully no drama will occur either. Edited March 30, 2013 by Icestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 you know one good thing came out of this thread for me, personally. i thought I was a selfish person. I realized that compared to some of the people here? I'm definitely not. feels good. as for social conventions that are not written laws. 1. a lot of laws started out as social conventions, to be written down and made official later. 2. they are design to make life more pleasant for as many people as possible. here's a social convention. I'm relatively young. healthy. taking public transport somewhere. an old woman comes in, walking slowly, laboriously with a can. that public transport is pretty full, there is no place for her to sit, and only free place to stand is in front of me. there is no law anywhere that says I should give up my sit for her. that sit is comfortable, its certainly useful for me. but it is a nice, RIGHT thing to do. and the thing is, unlike giving up my sit on a crowded buss - NOT rolling need for my companion, unless group is ok with it will not result nearly in as much discomfort. You choosing to not to roll need for your companion is like you giving up your seat on the bus. Expecting the person in the group with you is like expecting a stranger on the bus to give up HIS seat. Do you throw the person who does not give up their seat off the bus? Shouldn't he be punished? He is, after all, violating "social convention" and you should be able to make your displeasure known to him? You can tell him he is being rude without throwing him off the bus, you say? I thought that you could, but judging by several posters posts, I was beginning to wonder if that option had been taken away from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 How much did your companion contribute to the FP run? The key difference is that 9 times out of 10 upgrading your companion benefits you and only you. Whereas a player character getting an upgrade benefits everyone that person groups with because it makes them more effective in their role.. It's fine if your solo experience is your priority, but don't expect other players to hold your ease of soloing to be equal in priority to their group experience. How much did the PLAYER contribute to the FP run? That PLAYER is the one who in the opinion of "social convention" cannot to roll need on that drop that would be an upgrade for his companion, because you want it for your character. Would you even have a chance to get the upgrade for your character without the efforts of that other PLAYER? That upgrade for your character may benefit you all the time and everyone YOU group with, but the person that wasn't given the chance to roll need for his companion, will likely see NO benefit from it, because he will likely never be grouped with you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 The FPs are level-based, our companions are integral to our levelling, they contributed to us being there! And once we are on to Ops, where we want to be as well geared as we can be, who is it running the missions with us to collect dailies and BH comms in order for us to achieve that? Companions again. And I am not the one with expectations here, it is the other side so to speak. What happened to the good old convention of actually talking to your fellow party members and sorting out loot rules before you begin? To attach convention that was applicable when the game was young and everyone was levelling their first character, is completely outdated in current terms. It would seem that "social convention" trumps the need for communication if some people in this thread are to be believed. To expect someone on the "right" side of this debate, with the power of "social convention" and vote to kick at his beck and call, to actually take the less than 15 seconds to type "need for character only" in party chat is beyond unreasonable. After all, they have "social convention" on their side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziphii Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 I read every post in this whole damn thread. Where's my cookie? In regards to the topic, it seems that we are all in agreement on one thing: communication about loot in a group is a good thing. The vast majority agree that there is a social convention of need for character only, greed for companion or selling, pass if not interested. If you're gonna break social convention, the obligation is on you to notify the group. If you don't ask first, wait until everyone else has rolled greed and then roll need, you deserve a warning and then a kick from the group if you do it again. As far as punishment goes, that fits the crime, imo. The people who get called out on fleet should be reserved for people who, like the op, have been advised of convention, understand that when they need after everyone else has greeded they are stealing loot from others who may "need" it as much as they do, and then do it anyway. We aren't going to convince the people who disagree with this convention, but it *is* nice to see so many people who still follow some courtesy in groups. In wow, that sentiment died a long time ago (except in guild groups). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziphii Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 How much did the PLAYER contribute to the FP run? That PLAYER is the one who in the opinion of "social convention" cannot to roll need on that drop that would be an upgrade for his companion, because you want it for your character. Would you even have a chance to get the upgrade for your character without the efforts of that other PLAYER? That upgrade for your character may benefit you all the time and everyone YOU group with, but the person that wasn't given the chance to roll need for his companion, will likely see NO benefit from it, because he will likely never be grouped with you again. But rata, they will get a benefit when something else drops that they get to roll need on due to social convention. So they have to gear up their companion some other way, but they benefit from this system too, because they don't have to take their chances when an upgrade for their character drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jovianus Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) It would seem that "social convention" trumps the need for communication if some people in this thread are to be believed. To expect someone on the "right" side of this debate, with the power of "social convention" and vote to kick at his beck and call, to actually take the less than 15 seconds to type "need for character only" in party chat is beyond unreasonable. After all, they have "social convention" on their side. And what exactly is physically or psychically preventing you from taking the 'less than 15 seconds' to type 'can I need for my companion'? That upgrade for your character may benefit you all the time and everyone YOU group with, but the person that wasn't given the chance to roll need for his companion, will likely see NO benefit from it, because he will likely never be grouped with you again. The benefit is communal, not individual. You may never see that particular person again, but whenever you group with someone else who has up to date gear, because they won that gear as opposed to it going to someone else's companion, you benefit from their better performance as a result. Edited March 30, 2013 by jovianus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsheraII Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 And what exactly is physically or psychically preventing you from taking the 'less than 15 seconds' to type 'can I need for my companion'?The trooper hitting need although he already has the chestpiece anyway? The benefit is communal, not individual. You may never see that particular person again, but whenever you group with someone else who has up to date gear, because they won that gear as opposed to it going to someone else's companion, you benefit from their better performance as a result. There would've been more "communal benefit" if people showed up properly geared, which isn't that hard in leveling content. In which case, nobody would have any viable "need" for any of the drops other than their cosmetics. Plenty places to get the mods, you're slacking if you don't have them yet in at least blue quality. Sooo once again: Either the bosses in leveling flashpoints should simply drop one piece of loot for everybody, give everybody the same piece for all I care, or the mods and shells should simply drop seperately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jovianus Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 There would've been more "communal benefit" if people showed up properly geared, which isn't that hard in leveling content. In which case, nobody would have any viable "need" for any of the drops other than their cosmetics. Plenty places to get the mods, you're slacking if you don't have them yet in at least blue quality. If gearing up is so easy in normal leveling content...why aren't you gearing your companion the same way? why do you need the FP drops for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nateslice Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) It would seem that "social convention" trumps the need for communication if some people in this thread are to be believed. To expect someone on the "right" side of this debate, with the power of "social convention" and vote to kick at his beck and call, to actually take the less than 15 seconds to type "need for character only" in party chat is beyond unreasonable. After all, they have "social convention" on their side. When there's a social convention like this in place, the people who abide by it don't have to initiate such communication. The burden is on the people who want to do something different. It's like waiting in line. People who are okay with waiting in line shouldn't have to tell everyone who comes along, "Hey, this is the line. Your position is back there." Instead, a person who has some pressing need to cut ahead should initiate the communication on whether it would be okay to do so. If you don't ask, and you just cut in line, the people who are waiting have every right to be impolite to you when they're informing you of the social convention. And if you still refuse to go to the back of the line, you can expect to be thrown out of the store/theater/bank/whatever, because the staff won't appreciate a troublemaker, either. Edited March 30, 2013 by nateslice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildbloodX Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 OMG this thread is still popping up at the top? This horse as been beaten and is long dead. It is simple: People who give in to the Darkside select need for companions Poeple who are at one with the Force only select need if they can use it as an upgrade to their main toon. (Only bumping this because it was like third down on the list in General but please let it die) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Don't confuse as deserving with more deserving. Seen a lot of that happen in this thread. Except when you hit Greed, you're saying "I deserve this loot drop just as much as the rest of you" When you hit Need, you're saying "I deserve this loot drop MORE than the rest of you" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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