The stupid quirks of players in PvP.

[Hyde_v]

1) Higher damage output makes it easier to get objectives

2) More damage = more kills = more enemy players spending time in their respawn

3) Teams with higher DPS tend to win more often than not

4) Most important, when was the last time you saw a basketball player scoring 70 points in a game and that team losing?

Sure, you get medals for high DPS output. But medals do not win you the game. Maybe on your server high DPS teams win. But not on Jung Ma. I know because I look at the scoreboard! High DPS will get more mvp votes.

 

The basketball analogy was an example not a real sports statistic. You missed the point.

[dcgregorya]

There's reasons for all of those things. Attacking a node you can't take can cause them to split forces - if you require them to have 3 there, that's 3 you're not fighting. If the guy is a tank, that's a good trade.

 

DPS is important. Lots of games are lost because people fail at actually killing people. I've seen games of Huttball where the guy just casually waits in the pit getting healed until he can pass to someone.

 

And lastly, sometimes that DPS guy was the one who won the game. Maybe he took down their heals and got a key node, or maybe he was racking up kills and peeling like a champ and helped to win the game in a significant way. Or maybe the healer was a jerk over chat.

 

Anyway, your post really just illustrates that *you* do not get PVP. Not that other people don't get it.

Edited March 12, 2013 by dcgregorya

[kirorx]

1) Higher damage output makes it easier to get objectives

2) More damage = more kills = more enemy players spending time in their respawn

3) Teams with higher DPS tend to win more often than not

4) Most important, when was the last time you saw a basketball player scoring 70 points in a game and that team losing?

 

The reason your damage is often high is because you have a tank that is actually throwing out taunts which is keeping the enemy dps low and your heal can keep you alive for longer.

 

Next time you get high DPS check your teammates Protection and heals. That is when the team effort effort really shines and you get the highest numbers possible.

[dcgregorya]

I don't play basketball, but I've pretty often seen the team with lesser dps win because of better healers/tanks and interrupts.

 

And by quite often, you mean like 10-15% of the time being *EXTREMELY* generous.

[iheartnyc]

Sure, you get medals for high DPS output. But medals do not win you the game. Maybe on your server high DPS teams win. But not on Jung Ma. I know because I look at the scoreboard! High DPS will get more mvp votes.

 

The basketball analogy was an example not a real sports statistic. You missed the point.

 

Well I suggest you learn to make better analogies then because clearly your target audience missed the point.

 

And actually, high DPS does not mean you are going to get the MOST medals. In fact, high DPS often get very few medals because they are too busy killing the other team letting the weaker players capture objectives.

 

Post me a screen shot of a lop-sided match where 1 team was heads and shoulders above the other team in DPS and still lost (e.g., where almost everyone on 1 team had better DPS than everyone on the other team). Let's see how long it takes you for such a match to happen. I've played on 3 different servers and have 3 characters over Valor rank 70 (with 1 sitting at a 100) and have seen this happen maybe 10 times, and usually it was the result of incredible heals on the other side. Conversely, I can easily post you plenty of screenshots where dominant DPS displays have won matches. There is a statistical correlation between DPS and game wins. Denying this simply means you are blind or don't know how to read WZ charts.

 

And the truth is, the ability to do very high DPS (think 800K plus) or very high heals shows that a player is very familiar with his class, and has good individual skill. I've seen that people who whinge about DPS or spout "charts mean nothing" generally couldn't hit those numbers if their life depended on it and use this whole "strategy is best rofl" rhetoric to justify their own general suckiness. You really don't think someone who can hit 800k+ in a warzone doesn't know how to "camera turn to objective to see if being capped" or "burn healer?" If they are not doing so, it's usually because they simply don't care, or are too busy destroying the enemy team. And yes, doing 800K of anything in a Warzone means you are VERY busy with far higher "actions per second" than players with low numbers.

 

BTW, assuming 800K damage against 8 players with an average of 19.5K health, that's a total potential of 41 full kills from full health. And each full kill means that the enemy player spends around 30 seconds trying to get back into the fight, in a Warzone that lasts around 13 minutes - respawns can obliterate the enemy's ability to do DPS given this implicit "DPS cooldown". The importance of this hard DPS cooldown cannot be understated. A player who died more than 5 times may have spent nearly half the entire WZ respawning, which means his DPS/HPS is effectively reduced by 50%, and has 50% less time to play objectives. Imagine having a skill that can reduce an enemy player's DPS/HPS by 50% for the entire WZ. That would be the most ungodly OP skill ever created in an MMO. Good DPS can achieve that very same thing. Obviously a lot of that 800K damage will be mitigated by healing and guarding and shouts, but you see the point. Now, similarly, if each player on your team did just 20K more damage, that's a total potential of 8 full kills from full health, meaning 8 full DPS cooldowns. That is a huge difference in a single WZ.

Edited March 12, 2013 by iheartnyc

[iheartnyc]

The reason your damage is often high is because you have a tank that is actually throwing out taunts which is keeping the enemy dps low and your heal can keep you alive for longer.

 

Next time you get high DPS check your teammates Protection and heals. That is when the team effort effort really shines and you get the highest numbers possible.

 

Yes, tanks are very useful, as are the many other different ways to directly mitigate enemy DPS output (e.g., stuns, grenades, knockbacks, interrupts). I didn't want to list them all out for simplicity's sake. The point I'm trying to make is good players make a concerted effort to increase their DPS while decreasing the opponent's DPS. These are the basic "individual skills" good teams look for when recruiting players. On top of that, common sense things like situational awareness, timing, spacing, etc., but without the DPS or mitigation skills, you are a non-starter.

[Hyde_v]

There's reasons for all of those things. Attacking a node you can't take can cause them to split forces - if you require them to have 3 there, that's 3 you're not fighting. If the guy is a tank, that's a good trade.

Certainly. A diversion is always a nice thing. But this is not the trend I keep seeing. People attack a specific node, (usually the southern bunker or the middle turrent,) and...keep...attacking...it. They never actually take the node and continue to run back to the same node again and again for the duration of the Warzone. Players never leave the node to try one that is less guarded or easier to take. They toil endlessly, and fruitlessly, at the same node and lose the game. But heeey, those DPS numbers are really high, right?

 

You'll just have to forgive me if I find this practice dumb.

 

DPS is important. Lots of games are lost because people fail at actually killing people. I've seen games of Huttball where the guy just casually waits in the pit getting healed until he can pass to someone.

 

I feel the need to point out that player kills are not a goal that wins you a Warzone in this game. Players can rack up impressive kill numbers and still lose the Warzone because they failed to take the Huttball over the end zone, destroy the enemy bunker, or score enough points to charge the hypergate. If you do not accomplish those specific goals, you lose. Everything else is secondary. Granted, you will win yourself a few more Valor points and War Comms with a high DPS or kill count. But you still lost. And you would have been awarded even more Valor and Comms had you won!

 

Anyway, your post really just illustrates that *you* do not get PVP. Not that other people don't get it.

 

"O'rly?"

[Xemak]

man pvp is rough sometimes, when i see everyone go for the mid or something i usually branch off to the sides and take it and then hold it for the game, cause i dont wanna leave and offend someone. Huttball on the other hand, i hardly go to score these days cause i always get pulled into fire or something, or i just flat out miss seeing someone to pass, and end up apologizing a lot.

 

aint easy being a coward, i tells ya.

[iheartnyc]

I feel the need to point out that player kills are not a goal that wins you a Warzone in this game. Players can rack up impressive kill numbers and still lose the Warzone because they failed to take the Huttball over the end zone, destroy the enemy bunker, or score enough points to charge the hypergate. If you do not accomplish those specific goals, you lose. Everything else is secondary. Granted, you will win yourself a few more Valor points and War Comms with a high DPS or kill count. But you still lost. And you would have been awarded even more Valor and Comms had you won!

 

Player kills are not an objective in this game? LOL what are you talking about. You want to cap the enemy's node? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to cap mid at Civil War or Novare Coast? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to cap the enemy pylon? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to defend your own nodes? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to stop the enemy ballcarrier? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL.

 

Anything and everything that leads to the objective actually being captured is PLAYER KILLs.

[Groncho]

What's with the aggressively dumb people that beeline right into a crowd of guys over and over again? This is so common that it warrants its own thread, and maybe even a (in jest) anthropological analysis.

 

"Here we have the sentinel, who because he has two glowbats, fancies himself uber pwnz0rz. He will rush at the same group of defenders, only to be chopped to pieces again and again, never correcting the error that leads to his own demise."

 

Thats called SuperRamboSpec 31-31-31

and yes ppl that overextend tend to do that and be heals sponges

[iheartnyc]

Thats called SuperRamboSpec 31-31-31

and yes ppl that overextend tend to do that and be heals sponges

 

Overextending itself is a risky proposition but pushing forward is a good strategy for pushing the other team off the node letting the cappers take the objective. Biggest problem is, nobody really follows the overextender and leaves that player to be ganked.

[Malkavier]

this is pretty entitled. Healer is a role. It is not more important than other roles. It is equal.

 

My only perception of quirks is the tunnel-vision people can get.

 

Au contraire. Healers can still DPS, but DPS can't heal. Tanks can still DPS, but DPS can rarely tank for more than a few seconds at best. Ergo, DPS in PvP is the least important of all three roles.

[Malkavier]

Player kills are not an objective in this game? LOL what are you talking about. You want to cap the enemy's node? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to cap mid at Civil War or Novare Coast? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to cap the enemy pylon? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to defend your own nodes? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to stop the enemy ballcarrier? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL.

 

Anything and everything that leads to the objective actually being captured is PLAYER KILLs.

 

Read what he said more carefully. The goals are not PKs. There is no "official" Team Deathmatch (Ancient Hypergate being a possible exception) or Deathmatch WZs in this game. PKs are a byproduct of the attempts to achieve the goals of the WZs that actually DO win the matches for you. He even listed some examples.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Malkavier

[iheartnyc]

Read what he said more carefully. The goals are not PKs. There is no "official" Team Deathmatch (Ancient Hypergate being a possible exception) or Deathmatch WZs in this game. PKs are a byproduct of the attempts to achieve the goals of the WZs that actually DO win the matches for you. He even listed some examples.

 

Read what he said more carefully. Read his previous posts and the context in which he states them. His whole schtick is to downplay the importance of DPS and even goes so far as to imply that people who are focused on DPS in a WZ are stupid.

 

And no, he did not list any examples other than the same rhetoric along the lines of "in the end of the day, DPS does not matter." Never once has he acknowledged in a prior post that DPS is critical in winning a game. Never once has he acknowledged the correlation between high player kills and game wins. The dude has an agenda and won't consider any rebuttal or contrary evidence. His thinking as demonstrated by his generalizations (not just on DPS but also on strategy) is awfully single-minded and shows that he has little capacity for flexibility and understanding of the fluid mechanics and tactical dynamics of PVP in general.

 

He goes as far as to imply that people who DPS are trying to farm medals and comms. He did this in a prior post in this very thread as well. It's a recurring theme.

 

He said:

 

"I feel the need to point out that player kills are not a goal that wins you a Warzone in this game."

 

"Granted, you will win yourself a few more Valor points and War Comms with a high DPS or kill count."

 

Nobody ever claimed that the SOLE goal of a WZ was to kill players. It is "a" goal, and an important one, among other goals such as healing, tanking, capping, defending. But note how OP states, "not a goal" at all. His ridiculous insistence on marginalizing the role of DPS in Warzones should not be getting any support from the PvP community because it is completely off the mark.

Edited March 14, 2013 by iheartnyc

[PhantomMalice]

Player kills are not an objective in this game? LOL what are you talking about. You want to cap the enemy's node? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to cap mid at Civil War or Novare Coast? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to cap the enemy pylon? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to defend your own nodes? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL. You want to stop the enemy ballcarrier? YOU NEED TO PLAYER KILL.

 

Anything and everything that leads to the objective actually being captured is PLAYER KILLs.

 

Here we have a typical Call of Duty player who somehow managed to cross over the FPS/MMO dimension rift. Let me tell you something about objective based PVP. You don't actually need to kill off enemy players, to capture a node. Granted it is an effective way to prevent a counter-attack, but so is a key knockback, a CC that caught the enemy with their breaker on cooldown.

 

You have no idea how many time I stole victory away from the other team by ninja capping a node right under their noses while gung-ho like you are bashing each others' brains out.

[iheartnyc]

Here we have a typical Call of Duty player who somehow managed to cross over the FPS/MMO dimension rift. Let me tell you something about objective based PVP. You don't actually need to kill off enemy players, to capture a node. Granted it is an effective way to prevent a counter-attack, but so is a key knockback, a CC that caught the enemy with their breaker on cooldown.

 

You have no idea how many time I stole victory away from the other team by ninja capping a node right under their noses while gung-ho like you are bashing each others' brains out.

 

Lol at your silly assumption that great DPS players are automatically terribad at guarding nodes. You must be playing against nubs to get a ninja cap. That would never happen in Rateds against a respectable team, but hey, continue to base your strategy on the hope that an idiot will be guarding nodes.

 

I love your random tanget that DPS is good for "prevent a counter-attack". Really? That's all you have to say about player kills in a WZ? No other benefits you can think of? Let me break it down for you.

 

Player kills is the SINGLE BIGGEST COOLDOWN we can get on an enemy player. The benefits of player kills:

 

1) Sends enemy player on permanent cooldown for approx. 30s (e.g., respawn timer plus distance back to target), during which he cannot heal, damage or capture/defend objective points - especially vital in Voidstar. 30 seconds per single kill in a match (which is effectively 12.5% of an entire teams DPS/Heals given 1/8) that lasts 13 or so minutes (or shorter) is massive.

2) Takes out enemy players on the objective ready to interrupt your attempts to capture - you absolutely cannot capture points if there are enemy players standing around ready to interrupt, unless of course they are terribads

3) Critical in defending a point, especially when you are solo defending

4) Critical in capturing a point - good luck capturing a node when the entire enemy team is standing around

5) Amazing form of distraction - when players are getting lolsmashed, they often panic and are too busy busting all their CDs to notice a ninja cap or players peeling off to take the side point

6) Huge DPS completely ties up the other team's healers, meaning said healer cannot play objectives

7) Huge DPS against the enemy team healers forces enemy DPS to try to peel their healers, rather than trying to play objectives

8) Players will be discouraged from trying to cap a point when they see a feared DPS player guarding. They will slink away in fear.

9) Gives you control over strategically important areas (mid and ramps in Huttball, mid in Hypergate)

 

I could go on and on. DPS and player kills are not the most or only important thing in a WZ. I never said that. But it is one of the most important and vital aspects. You simply cannot win (at least on a competitive level) a single WZ without having net DPS output in a level that at least matches if not exceeds that of the enemy team. And to that point, net DPS output (which factors in heals) is directly correlated to player kills (the cooldown effect I mentioned). You need great DPS, heals, teamwork, strategy, timing, team build and awareness in order to win a game. They're all linked together, and to criticize someone for trying to be the best at one of those key aspects is silly. That's why there are 8 man teams - it allows for specialization of role (you do assign roles when you play WZs right?)

 

And if you really break down WZs into its most basic components, you will find that one of the key ingredients are several mini-DPS races that occur either on the individual or group level in a WZ. I wish we had the software to analyze this, but I believe the number of "mini-DPS races" won per game is directly correlated to WZ win or loss, by either killing players or by forcing them to retreat giving you control of key strategic regions.

Edited March 14, 2013 by iheartnyc

[Cleet_Xia]

Each of the roles brings something very important to the WZ, and the lines between those roles are pretty blurry.

 

DPS mitigate damage by putting oponents behind the barrier of the respawn box and using their interrupts. Healers can mitigate damage by DoTing up melee oponents when they are out of attack range of anyone, and by using cleanse & interrupts.

 

Tanks reduce the burden of healers by guarding players that will likely be taking a lot of damage ~ it's better than healing because it frees up the healer's GCDs. DPS reduce the burden of healing by using interrupts & by focus firing down oponents.

 

Tanks & healers both have the capacity to some signifigant dps themselves, with the different specs & AC's being better/worse at different things. Sage/Sorc heal spec for example actually has the capacity for some brutal AOE, while smuggler/agent has a very effective single target burst.

 

But it really only takes 1 or 2 total morons to lose a PvP match by chronically overextending too soon. Sometimes it's just a matter of them waiting 2 seconds for a few more players to catch up & support their charge. A healer can't be stupid and follow them in without backup. And the same idiots don't have the good sense to peel for their healers.

 

Medal and kill counts don't mean nearly as much as many players like to think, because high numbers for tanks & healers are impossible against a team that is clearly outmatched. I can't say I've ever won a match with a team that was disorganized and didn't play as a team. But I can say I've won matches where my team wasn't geared as well as our oponents. Team play and strategy will trump a team full of well geared gung ho idiots everytime.

 

Some teams appreciate healers, and some don't. I've been top medal earner in a WZ as a heal spec, and I've been completely shut down by a team before. I've been left to be ganked by my 7 team mates more times than I can remember. I've also been pampered so well by my team that I've made it through multiple WZ without dying once. Teamwork was the difference in all cases.

[Hyde_v]

iheartny (great Star Wars name, by the way.)

 

I have never said that DPS does not play a role in winning a Warzone. What I have been saying is that players are making DPS their focus, not winning the game. The focus on Huttball is to score a goal. The focus for Civil War is to control at least two turrents. The focus on Novare Coast is to control at least two bunkers. The focus on the Voidstar is to open the doors. Only does the Ancient Hypergate Warzone include player kills as part of it's scoring system. And I'm not fully convinced that player kills award as much as running orbs.

 

Racking up an impressive DPS score just does not win you anything other then medals. Great for you and your earned comms. But not for the win! But that is what players are doing. They are ignoring the goals that allow you to win and instead making their damage output a priority. Wrong, wrong, WRONG.

 

It happened again to me this morning. In Novare Coast, I managed to take the eastern bunker. Sadly, that is the only bunker our team could take. As usual, people just kept running to the southern bunker. I went instead to the western bunker as there was only two people there. Sadly, one was a very good healer and I just could not take them alone. DPS doesn't mean squat when someone just heals it all back in one shot. Believe it or not, I actually had a team member tell me to stop "going to west." This same player then accused me of being a "bad leader," (you know, because, having lucked out on getting zoned in first and getting the red text automatically means you are in charge and anything that happens is your fault alone) and that my *bad word* needed upgraded AND that my DPS was not good ( I ranked fifth in DPS.) Right. All my fault.

 

It is the above mentality that I am against. Until players get out of the mindset that your DPS is the priority, I'm going to keep ranting and calling out the elephant in the room.

 

"I did 400,000 DPS."

 

Great, kid. But you didn't plant a bomb on a single door and they won in thirty seconds.

 

Ugh.