The Future of Competitive Raiding in SW:TOR

[Dragonbgone]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/pro-gaming

 

I want to get a feel for the community’s opinion here on the state of raiding and where it should go in the future.

 

As far as the current raiding population compares SW:TOR is dwindling. We currently have thirteen guilds which are competing in sixteen man content and thirty-nine guilds competing in eight man content progression as of NiM EC. (source: world rankings board threads)

 

The amount of competitive raiding in this game has dwindled significantly since 1.1. Guilds like Condemned, Nerf Dialog, Methodical, Nox Imperius(Cali Killed Nox), and many others were part of a competitive community of 50+ 16 man guilds. I also remember swtor.raidranks.com having 90+ 8 man guilds posting their progression as well. My point is that these amazing players have left the game mainly because of the extreme lack of end game PvE content and the ease/bore of said content back in 1.1. The game has no short of blossomed and flourished since 1.1, especially with Nightmare Mode 16 man Explosive Conflict, one hell of a challenging and fun operation. I am wondering if anyone has a problem with 16 man being made more difficult than 8 man operations? I feel that this would help give more substance to the game for the extremely hardcore raider while not excluding anyone who can’t complete it because they can do it on eight man if the difficulty of sixteen is not fun for them.

 

The reason I linked the extra credits video is to enhance this discussion by paralleling professional sports to competitive gaming. I live in Texas and have been here for a very long portion of my life. Here football is king above everything. People go *********** ape **** over the sport. This isn’t a problem, but when you think about it there are so many millions of people that enjoy watching the sport and tracking competitive ranking and getting entrenched in the players’ personal lives even though the chance that any single person has to even be considered to make it to the professional leagues is unbelievably low. In the video the extra creditz team says that the dream of it being a possibility, no matter how small, is what pushes people to become so engulfed in the sport. Why can’t this be the same for video games? Why can’t we ramp up the difficulty and competition of SOME of the endgame to cater to the 1% of elite players? I feel that this will spur a lot of interesting and fun involvement with not only extremely skilled players but also with the casual community!

 

Plus, if we can bring back those extremely skilled players that’s more money for bioware and a better, intelligent boost to the community as a whole. Thoughts?

[Darth_Halford]

I've got a couple thoughts on this, not in any specific order

 

A) Video Games are NOT a sport. What's more, even the most competitive games among them, like the recent COD-variants, do not meet the requirements of what most people consider to be a "sport". If the best person can be replaced or bested by a machine, or if the entire competition is wiped out because of a new content patch or expansion, it shouldn't be held at the same level of other competitive games.

 

B) MMO's are not a "spectator" event. Even on the most basic level, gamers would much rather play the game than watch, and most games are built around 59 minutes of action for every one minute of dialogue or inactivity. While somebody with no knowledge of sports can roughly pick up the concept of baseball or other athletic events, you need to have a much more familiar knowledge of The Old Republic to really take away anything from spectating a raid event.

 

C) Raiders compete against the machine, not each other. In traditional competitive events its two individuals or teams against each other and you can root for one or the other and there's a specific winner and loser. We've all got our favorite teams and players, and part of what makes sporting events so great is the rivalries. That's much harder to pull off in videogames, especially when there's no direct clash against the individuals.

 

D) the revenueis debatable. Because the competetive market is so small, it's really unlikely that trying to cater to that group is going to see an investment on returns. That same ammount of time and energy spent trying to target a wider base could see the same or better return on investment. Pro sports make money off of advertising and tickets from spectators: since this isn't a spectator game (see above), there's no ad space, the only money to be made is by the individual subscriber, and a professional subscriber brings in the same ammount as a flunkie.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Darth_Halford

[Bouncy_Hunter]

I've got a couple thoughts on this, not in any specific order

 

A) Video Games are NOT a sport. What's more, even the most competitive games among them, like the recent COD-variants, do not meet the requirements of what most people consider to be a "sport". If the best person can be replaced or bested by a machine, or if the entire competition is wiped out because of a new content patch or expansion, it shouldn't be held at the same level of other competitive games.

 

B) MMO's are not a "spectator" event. Even on the most basic level, gamers would much rather play the game than watch, and most games are built around 59 minutes of action for every one minute of dialogue or inactivity. While somebody with no knowledge of sports can roughly pick up the concept of baseball or other athletic events, you need to have a much more familiar knowledge of The Old Republic to really take away anything from spectating a raid event.

 

C) Raiders compete against the machine, not each other. In traditional competitive events its two individuals or teams against each other and you can root for one or the other and there's a specific winner and loser. We've all got our favorite teams and players, and part of what makes sporting events so great is the rivalries. That's much harder to pull off in videogames, especially when there's no direct clash against the individuals.

 

D) the revenueis debatable. Because the competetive market is so small, it's really unlikely that trying to cater to that group is going to see an investment on returns. That same ammount of time and energy spent trying to target a wider base could see the same or better return on investment. Pro sports make money off of advertising and tickets from spectators: since this isn't a spectator game (see above), there's no ad space, the only money to be made is by the individual subscriber, and a professional subscriber brings in the same ammount as a flunkie.

 

I would write my own wall of text, but this guy nailed it.

[Beaunidle]

I don't understand the concept. At best it seems absurd.

 

Having been a fairly hardcore MMO raider for more years than I care to contemplate (Everquest from release) and probably one of the earliest to kill most raid content, I feel no urge to compete or compare genital size.

 

MMO's are not a sport, they're a way to occupy free time like reading a book or watching TV.

[Andryah]

I would write my own wall of text, but this guy nailed it.

 

/Signed.

 

Darth_Halford nailed square and true.

[Andryah]

Having been a fairly hardcore MMO raider for more years than I care to contemplate (Everquest from release) and probably one of the earliest to kill most raid content, I feel no urge to compete or compare genital size.

 

Roger that!

 

Hardcore raiding got old a long time ago for me. I now deliberately look for ways to avoid it in MMOs, and am having more fun as a result. And this game is not centered around making hardcore raiding core to game play, and frankly I am glad for that. There is just enough to feed the desire from time to time, but not enough to feed an addiction. I hope they keep it that way.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Knockerz]

Roger that!

 

Hardcore raiding got old a long time ago for me. I now deliberately look for ways to avoid it in MMOs, and am having more fun as a result. And this game is not centered around making hardcore raiding core to game play, and frankly I am glad for that. There is just enough to feed the desire from time to time, but not enough to feed an addiction. I hope they keep it that way.

 

This is true for me too. I raided for a while in wow as a hardcore raider and eventually lapse to casual raiding, then just quit altogether raiding. I prefer it the way it is now since I don't need to schedule real life events around raiding. Swtor is particular good with casuals, which is why I'm still subscribed. Hardcore raider are so full of themselves and always want the game to center around raiding. It's questionable how many players participate in hardcore raiding in wow, which by the way 25 man is slowly dying out, which will probably force the developers to gut 25 man raiding and with it hardcore 25 man raiding. Hardcore raiding is like building castles in the air. As posters in this thread mention, mmorpg hardcore raiding will never be a real sport. Thus, no point in trying to make hardcore raiding competitive, since it will never generated income like spectator sports.

[TrillOG-]

Personally I think something that would greatly increase the number of competative guilds out there is server transfers. The way it is now so many good players are so spread out, and the number of players who have left is staggering. My server, the Covenant, seems to have a very little amount of guilds even attempting Dreadtooth, and then the entity. Not to even mention how hard it is to find a 16 man guild that is progressing through EC NiM, and plans to do TFB. It's near impossible, and the ones that are, have a set group already. I can only imagine how it is on servers that have low population. It would be hard for me to continue subbing if I had no good players to raid with, and I feel like transfers would bring back a number of people.

[Banegio]

Anyone actually follows any professional e-sport?

 

Professional e-sports exist.

 

It may not be sport in the sense of physical activity. Hey Shooting is an official Olympics sport.

 

By professional, I mean there are competitors and presenters earn their living by participating in the industry. $20k to $200k income is not unheard of.

 

http://sc2earnings.com/

[Neverfar]

Anyone actually follows any professional e-sport?

 

Professional e-sports exist.

 

It may not be sport in the sense of physical activity. Hey Shooting is an official Olympics sport.

 

By professional, I mean there are competitors and presenters earn their living by participating in the industry. $20k to $200k income is not unheard of.

 

http://sc2earnings.com/

 

How exactly does "A tiny percentage of a self-consumed tiny percentage of a gaming community happens to make money" vindicate the OP's complaint? Oh no, the gentry that expected the royal treatment in Everquest and World of Warcraft isn't given a high-seated gilded carriage automatically in every new MMO that comes out. The fact that a tiny handful of these "elite" make money off of it seems more like arrogant boasting than a good reason for the 99% of the rest of us to care that you can do synchronized button-mashing a little faster.

 

I say this as a PvPer that DOES respect the competitive spirit of a team fighting a team, especially for an objective rather than a mere arena match, which requires people to work together and at the same time keep an eye out for the unpredictable wiles of the other team.

 

Slowly chipping down some giant monster's wall of hitpoints and looting his magic shoes slightly faster than the other guys doing it (and expecting special recognition for it, no less!) is boring, especially to watch, for most people.

[Kynesis]

Hardcore, competitive raiding is in just about every way, probably the antithesis of what you'd want in an E-sport.

Most of what really matters in a raid isn't at all obvious to a casual observer.

 

If you browse through the many, very good movies available through tankspot.com or FatbossTV (or warcraftmovies.com or even swtormovies.com), even as an experienced player, even as an experienced player who's read through the fight mechanics and may have attempted the fight, there's still a lot going on that is difficult to fully appreciate as a spectator.

Most raids aren't terribly cinematic or photogenic - a tanks point of view is generally a screenful of Boss-groin and explosions while healers mash away at whack-a-mole and dps work exhaustively to chop the boss down by hacking away at its ankles or arse.

 

Having said that it is absolutely a worthy goal to enable players ways they can share their experiences with the world. There are several sites that already help with this but a hell of a lot of work goes into crafting movies of even just passable quality - if for no other reason, frankly than having game companies make more dynamic, visually appealing encounters.

 

I'd point to games like Halo and Starcraft as examples of how to make in-game footage available to a wider audience. Just recently, Red5 Studios have incorporated live streaming to TwitchTV into Firefall (Firefall uses the Crysis engine in case you're wondering, so the graphical quality they're streaming is very high).

 

As the guys of Extra Credits point out though, there are many important questions to address. Before you even consider starting to begin, it's absolutely critical to figure out exactly who the intended audience is going to be and what you expect to gain from courting them.

[Ailie]

Yeah nothing will kill the enjoyment of raiding for me more than people comparing themselves to other groups. It's pointless, meaningless and does nothing but create drama. I don't particularly care if one group has cleared HM TFB whilst we're still on the second boss, that's not to say our group is bad, it's just where we're at. Compositions are different, circumstances are different, so comparing them achieves nothing.

 

Besides, I've often found these sorts of things encourage exploiting and cheating more than anything

[Dragonbgone]

I'm not saying it needs to be an e-sport. The main question is: If 16 man was made to be extremely difficult on purpose for players that LOVE extremely difficult content, would most of the community feel excluded?

 

And just as well, the Carnage Gaming stream had 2k+ viewers when they were downing Dreadtooth 10 stacks and the dreadful entity.

 

There aren't 2k players that can do that fight, but they were interested and watching. So I feel that even though not everyone could do the content people could still take part in watching it and have fun (ie not feeling excluded)

[Neverfar]

I'm not saying it needs to be an e-sport. The main question is: If 16 man was made to be extremely difficult on purpose for players that LOVE extremely difficult content, would most of the community feel excluded?

 

And just as well, the Carnage Gaming stream had 2k+ viewers when they were downing Dreadtooth 10 stacks and the dreadful entity.

 

There aren't 2k players that can do that fight, but they were interested and watching. So I feel that even though not everyone could do the content people could still take part in watching it and have fun (ie not feeling excluded)

 

Two thousand out of how large a potential audience (which may actually include people that don't even play that MMO and are just curious, and also people that click the link, don't like it, but are counted anyway)?

 

Even a middling population like Old Republic has far more than two thousand people, making the percentage watching that "exciting" raid footage not much larger than the percentage doing the raid.

 

Furthermore, outliers don't make for standards. How many competitive raids, even in WoW, don't have anywhere near two thousand people interested in watching a bunch of tiny specks hacking at a monster's knees and ankles? Exceptions are not the rule here.

 

The most important point I can make here is that no one's stopping you from recording this stuff and putting it on Youtube, but don't expect and don't demand special attention from the developers, or expect us to sit idly by and let you get additional development time for content that you'll gobble up in weeks and burn out on that many people may never really get to see, let alone participate in (Burning Crusade "endgame" raids come to mind there).

 

It's more bang for the buck to invest in stuff a lot of people can do, enjoy, and yes, be challenged by. I'm by no means a "hardcore" raider but I've done hardmodes of Karagga's Palace, Eternity Vault, and almost almost finished Explosive Conflict but not quite. What you seem to be demanding is special attention, not from your deeds, but a pre-emptive favoritism by the devs because "e-sporting" was bandied about and taken seriously by Blizzard and some others before.

 

Even Blizzard admits that their arena "E-sport" messed up the game for a lot of people due to over-emphasis and lack of interest and participation due to elitism and exclusivist thinking.

 

Going back to the OP's post: I don't think he can have it both ways. Either "hardcore" raiders are popular and acclaimed enough that the audiences will flock to see their ankle-chipping antics, or they are not so interesting and they require special attention and recognition from the developers (and developer time) to practically advertise and cater to them.

 

Choose wisely: Are raiding "e-sports" interesting enough to most people to stand on their own two feet, or do they need endorsement and additional developer time? Don't talk about how successful and awesome you are and then demand a handout.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Neverfar

[Andryah]

The main question is: If 16 man was made to be extremely difficult on purpose for players that LOVE extremely difficult content, would most of the community feel excluded?

 

Nope, nor would I care about it in any conscious way.

 

Now, you want to gain my interest...... man up and do 16 man hardmodes nekkid. I would stop and take time to watch and admire that. Though I suspect the bosses will wipe the floors with you..... so make it a competition to see which 16 man can stay alive the longest before becoming a pile of mashed meat. It would definitely bring about changes in terms of what are the best mechanics to fight the encounter.... mostly with an emphasis on how to run fast and not get spanked down into a puddle of goo.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Neverfar]

Nope, nor would I care about it in any conscious way.

 

Now, you want to gain my interest...... man up and do 16 man hardmodes nekkid. I would stop and take time to watch and admire that. Though I suspect the bosses will wipe the floors with you..... so make it a competition to see which 16 man can stay alive the longest before becoming a pile of mashed meat. It would definitely bring about changes in terms of what are the best mechanics to fight the encounter.... mostly with an emphasis on how to run fast and not get spanked down into a puddle of goo.

 

They won't do it for the same reason that "hardcore pvpers" in WoW refuse any suggestion of gear parity in arenas. They brag about skill but want/need the crutch of being statistically superior right out of the gate to ensure their superiority.

 

Part of what makes them feel special as "professional" raiders is that it takes months, even years, in some MMOs to even start to try doing what they're doing due to gated gear requirements. Of course most modern MMOs really ease that requirement, and they get very upset because what they're doing feels less special.

 

Making content like that, that precious few ever really get to participate in, is a poor way to run a MMO and it's on its way out.

[Dragonbgone]

Two thousand . . . handout.

 

I can definitely see this. As far as MMOing goes though I'm pretty sure it's based off of old school DnD, where you're the player and the devs are the DMs setting up fights for you to conquer or be defeated by. It's the same way is a large amount of successful games that don't incorporate PvP (Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy, almost every RPG to be honest).

 

Regardless, subs are what count. As far as competitive gaming goes, Tankspot.com has 15k unique views per day. This is a site that is completely dedicated to the competitive raiding of the game. (millions of youtube videos per bossfight too). I truly do believe that people would come play this game in order to be challenged. As has been said in this thread WoW is losing it's 25 man hardcore raids. Those players don't stop raiding nor stop pushing themselves and challenging themselves so why don't we create a place for them to do that here?

 

Making money off of competitive raiding is possible, but would have to be endorsed by the company itself. Maybe changes to how raiding works might be in order. A few ideas are already here: more imaginative bossfights, more flashy and entertaining things to watch, more fastpaced action, etc...

 

The only reason I play this game, and the only reason my guild exists is to be challenged and to be proficient at raiding. If the developers decide they want to devote some content to us I want to know that people won't whine about not being able to do it due to the difficulty. Plus, together as a community we could probably come up with ways to make raiding into something enjoyable to watch, not just to play. (Just like actual sports!)

[Dragonbgone]

They won't do it for the same reason that "hardcore pvpers" in WoW refuse any suggestion of gear parity in arenas. They brag about skill but want/need the crutch of being statistically superior right out of the gate to ensure their superiority.

 

Part of what makes them feel special as "professional" raiders is that it takes months, even years, in some MMOs to even start to try doing what they're doing due to gated gear requirements. Of course most modern MMOs really ease that requirement, and they get very upset because what they're doing feels less special.

 

Making content like that, that precious few ever really get to participate in, is a poor way to run a MMO and it's on its way out.

 

Not really the problem here. Gear is just a tool to get us to the content. I'd be perfectly fine with not having to grind gear and just be giving the same stat pool allowance as everyone else.

 

And in competition you're going to have ******s that flaunt that they're better than people. Happens in LoL, Starcraft 2, and in real sports. Doesn't mean we all are unsportsmanlike.

 

Pssssstt. . . Your stats aren't that important in raiding. The differences between campaign and dreadguard are minimal at best.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Dragonbgone

[Neverfar]

I can definitely see this. As far as MMOing goes though I'm pretty sure it's based off of old school DnD, where you're the player and the devs are the DMs setting up fights for you to conquer or be defeated by. It's the same way is a large amount of successful games that don't incorporate PvP (Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy, almost every RPG to be honest).

 

Regardless, subs are what count. As far as competitive gaming goes, Tankspot.com has 15k unique views per day. This is a site that is completely dedicated to the competitive raiding of the game. (millions of youtube videos per bossfight too). I truly do believe that people would come play this game in order to be challenged. As has been said in this thread WoW is losing it's 25 man hardcore raids. Those players don't stop raiding nor stop pushing themselves and challenging themselves so why don't we create a place for them to do that here?

 

Making money off of competitive raiding is possible, but would have to be endorsed by the company itself. Maybe changes to how raiding works might be in order. A few ideas are already here: more imaginative bossfights, more flashy and entertaining things to watch, more fastpaced action, etc...

 

The only reason I play this game, and the only reason my guild exists is to be challenged and to be proficient at raiding. If the developers decide they want to devote some content to us I want to know that people won't whine about not being able to do it due to the difficulty. Plus, together as a community we could probably come up with ways to make raiding into something enjoyable to watch, not just to play. (Just like actual sports!)

 

Don't you think that the reason WoW is losing its specific 25 man "hardcore" niche is because it's worn out its welcome? You had your heyday in WoW, not to mention many other MMOs. People have by and large decided (including more than a few old timers) that this simply isn't as interesting to them as it is to you. I have the personal memory of the demands that "hardcore" people made for developer time and resources. It's a huge drain on an already demanding project making content that only a fraction of the playerbase is likely to see anytime soon.

 

That's the kiss of death here: I've seen over and over again the demand to make these "hardcore" content areas so gated, so exclusive, that what originally seems like a "please give us something to do" turns into a "we look down upon you unwashed filthy masses. You don't deserve anything", which is what early WoW Cataclysm turned into as an over-reaction to "hardcore" outcry following how "easy" Lich King became.

 

Yours is a lobby that's hard to please, and tends to be a drain on the rest of the game even when placated. And the placation is often brief and fleeting.

 

Your "only reason to play this game" is sadly narrow and exclusive. It's not how a lot of other people think. If you are here only for your progression jollies, this isn't the best choice of game for you. It really isn't.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Neverfar

[Darth_Halford]

I'm not saying it needs to be an e-sport. The main question is: If 16 man was made to be extremely difficult on purpose for players that LOVE extremely difficult content, would most of the community feel excluded?

 

And just as well, the Carnage Gaming stream had 2k+ viewers when they were downing Dreadtooth 10 stacks and the dreadful entity.

 

There aren't 2k players that can do that fight, but they were interested and watching. So I feel that even though not everyone could do the content people could still take part in watching it and have fun (ie not feeling excluded)

In short, Yes.

 

The economic principle of Opportunity Costs states that the investment spent on X cannot therefore be spent on Y, and therefore the Opportunity Cost is the Y that you can no longer have.

 

By committing the manpower, time, infrastructure, and funds into these incredibly exclusive venues and events, that's something else that could be added,improved, or fixed, that no longer can without using even more resources. Things that will either keep the majority of the playerbase entertained longer, or possibly even get more people "in the door" in the first place.

[Neverfar]

In short, Yes.

 

The economic principle of Opportunity Costs states that the investment spent on X cannot therefore be spent on Y, and therefore the Opportunity Cost is the Y that you can no longer have.

 

By committing the manpower, time, infrastructure, and funds into these incredibly exclusive venues and events, that's something else that could be added,improved, or fixed, that no longer can without using even more resources. Things that will either keep the majority of the playerbase entertained longer, or possibly even get more people "in the door" in the first place.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you here.

 

As a long-time WoW veteran, I saw myself what happened when arena people, or "hardcore" raiders, were catered to: next to nothing was done for the rest of us for considerably long stretches, until subscriptions started to dry up, we got enough to keep us interested, then the same old arena/raid lobbyists would again dry up the metaphorical well, demanding the majority of attention for a minority of the population.

[darthstinji]

I've got a couple thoughts on this, not in any specific order

 

A) Video Games are NOT a sport. What's more, even the most competitive games among them, like the recent COD-variants, do not meet the requirements of what most people consider to be a "sport". If the best person can be replaced or bested by a machine, or if the entire competition is wiped out because of a new content patch or expansion, it shouldn't be held at the same level of other competitive games.

 

B) MMO's are not a "spectator" event. Even on the most basic level, gamers would much rather play the game than watch, and most games are built around 59 minutes of action for every one minute of dialogue or inactivity. While somebody with no knowledge of sports can roughly pick up the concept of baseball or other athletic events, you need to have a much more familiar knowledge of The Old Republic to really take away anything from spectating a raid event.

 

C) Raiders compete against the machine, not each other. In traditional competitive events its two individuals or teams against each other and you can root for one or the other and there's a specific winner and loser. We've all got our favorite teams and players, and part of what makes sporting events so great is the rivalries. That's much harder to pull off in videogames, especially when there's no direct clash against the individuals.

 

D) the revenueis debatable. Because the competetive market is so small, it's really unlikely that trying to cater to that group is going to see an investment on returns. That same ammount of time and energy spent trying to target a wider base could see the same or better return on investment. Pro sports make money off of advertising and tickets from spectators: since this isn't a spectator game (see above), there's no ad space, the only money to be made is by the individual subscriber, and a professional subscriber brings in the same ammount as a flunkie.

 

What he said.

[rbkrbk]

Anyone actually follows any professional e-sport?

 

Professional e-sports exist.

 

It may not be sport in the sense of physical activity. Hey Shooting is an official Olympics sport.

 

By professional, I mean there are competitors and presenters earn their living by participating in the industry. $20k to $200k income is not unheard of.

 

http://sc2earnings.com/

 

That's mostly only in Korea, if you compete in GSL, and even then, the most prize money goes to Code S players. MLG/WGC I would say are the next highest paying tournaments, still substantially less though, but those only come quarterly/annually, respectively.

 

Then you have the smaller tournaments like IPL (IPL 6 just got cancelled a few days ago), Red Bull, Intel Extreme Masters, etc. These do not pay as well as most people make them out to.

 

Guys like HuK, Naniwa, TLO, hell, even bigger names like Stephano, only make money (and not that much) because of SPONSORSHIP. THAT is where the majority of the income comes from, and even then, it's "just barely enough".

 

Yes, there are players like Slayers Boxer (now retired) who make a 6 figure income. But he was a top 5 player (in the world, not just SK) since Brood Wars. Then you have guys like LG-IMMVP, DongRaeGu, MarineKing, Nestea, etc, but really, how often do you see those guys outside of Code S (yes, it happens, but not often). Point being, you really DO NEED to be in the top 32-64 of the players IN THE WORLD to be making a decent amount of money.

[Drebs]

Plus, if we can bring back those extremely skilled players that’s more money for bioware and a better, intelligent boost to the community as a whole. Thoughts?

 

Boy, could we ever use that. These forums prove it every day.

 

Perhaps we should work the problem backwards, and ask what SWTOR needs to foster a more competitive, intelligent community. I think you've hit on it here somewhat--part of what keeps people in WoW is the challenge that raiding presents, and the fact that status means something in that community. There's an official ranking system for guilds, and many really strive to be the best they can be. That atmosphere seems to be altogether missing from SWTOR.

[Darth_Halford]

Boy, could we ever use that. These forums prove it every day.

 

Perhaps we should work the problem backwards, and ask what SWTOR needs to foster a more competitive, intelligent community. I think you've hit on it here somewhat--part of what keeps people in WoW is the challenge that raiding presents, and the fact that status means something in that community. There's an official ranking system for guilds, and many really strive to be the best they can be. That atmosphere seems to be altogether missing from SWTOR.

 

For starters, the ability to play a game well has no possitive or negative correlation to the individuals intelligence and any statements made to the contrary is fallacious.

 

I for one think the game and the community is better off without all that crap. For one, copying what WoW does won't get WoW players to jump ship. Second, there is a core difference between the social aspects of Star Wars as a franchise and that of Warcraft.

 

If you look at the social dynamic in Star Wars, the one thing you'll find in common is people coming together. Wether its rogue smugglers helping against the Empire, or taking a new student in full embrace to teach them, or even the Seperatist movement in the Clone Wars. Even while most of the media has the backdrop of some huge galactic threat, the feel of them usually is that of cooperation, not competition. Keeping your friend or ally safe is more important than the mission at hand or even your own life. Therefore it should be that any Star Wars game that has multiplayer at the root of it should encourage camraderie more than competitive number games.

 

However, Warcraft as a franchise was born and has stayed predominantly in the world of PC gaming. It is ALL in competition and conflict, either against the machine or against your friends. While the plot may introduce friends and allies of different characters, it's there mostly to justify the inclusion of new units and to move from one event to the next. Since that aspect of the game(s) is completly absent in multiplayer games, and defeating the opponent is more important than protecting your ally (if you have one), it makes sense that the game encourages competitive behavior. Any warcraft game should have ways to determine who the best player is, and forming cooperative and collaborative nature with other players is only to push yourself further forward.