Juggernaut Tank - what rotation works for you?

[Kitru]

You on the other hand, assume you will always win and are content with how you play.

 

I don't assume I will always win. I push myself so that I don't *have* to taunt fluff in order to win. If I *do* lose threat, which has yet to happen, I'll throw out a single taunt, but that's all the fluffing that's ever needed. Telling people to fluff as their default strategy simply encourages them to not push themselves to maximize their threat gen.

 

I'm saying that taunt fluffing is never *required*. If you're having threat problems, it's probably recommended but you'd better served by learning your rotation better. Taunt fluffing is an option, but it should never be one you *want* to take.

[Fallerup]

so I would want to rotate like this?

 

enrage pop - charge + saber reflect - smash (accuracy debuff + sunder effect) - crushing blow - scream - ravage or ravage and then scream?

 

hmmm I just tried this on the ops dummy, I run out of rage after crushing blow, so unless I sunder first, I can't scream, but then again, the ops dummy doesn't hit me back, so I shouldn't have this problem in a real fight right?

 

I wish they would put ithe effluence/ruin talent (smash costs 0 rage) into the tank tree, then I could practise this rotation on the dummy

 

so on the dummy that doesn't hit back, I went: enrage pop - charge + saber reflect - smash (accuracy debuff + sunder effect) - crushing blow - retaliation - sundering strike - scream - ravage - backhand - choke. on a normal boss that hits back, I would skip sundering strike and only use it for rage regen, since reapplying sunder with smash is more effective since it gives accuracy debuff too.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Fallerup

[grallmate]

Bringing up pre-2.0 Shadow threat in a discussion about pre-2.0 Jugg threat is just mean

 

But really, show me logs of a pre-2.0 Jugg/Guardian tank holding over 1500 TPS for the first 15-20 seconds or I will repeatedly call ******** on your claims of holding threat without taunts. Pre-2.0 Juggs HAD to taunt fluff, end of story.

 

This discussion, and one I had with you earlier about how to pull aggro on the Terror as soon as you zone into the second phase, highlights a huge difference in how you and I play. I play under the assumption I might lose, so I'm throwing out all my tools and tricks to make damn sure I come out with the win. You on the other hand, assume you will always win and are content with how you play. Do I need to taunt fluff now? No. Can I? Yes, so I will.

 

Our strategy for the tanks in EC involved me tanking SC and taunting FB off to eat Incinerate Armor. Aside from being resource constrained I had to save my taunt for that and I STILL held aggro. On the hybrid Guardian my opener was around 2000 TPS and if I popped my reusable power adrenal for that it went up to around 2250 TPS.

 

I've been on both sides of this. My main DPS alt pre-2.0 was a bursty as hell Assault VG with no threat drop. I used that to train other tanks in my guild how to hold aggro but often had to just back off or /sit for the first 10 seconds of a fight. Even with Shadow tanks.

 

EDIT: Those numbers were in augmented Campaign.

Edited May 20, 2013 by grallmate

[Icebergy]

On bosses I start off with Leap->Guardian Slash(Riposte)->Hilt Strike(taunt)->Blade Storm->Sunder->Force Sweep->Master Strike->AoE taunt+sunder. For my opener.

 

I hit that first taunt after my highest aggro abilities for the max threat increase from the taunt. Then I use my AoE taunt basically right when my taunt debuff ends, usually I will hit my single target taunt again as soon as it is off CD and the AoE taunt debuff is over just to ensure I have solid aggro, as long as I know I won't need to have my taunts up for another reason any time soon.

 

If the boss uses ranged attacks I will usually pop my Saber Reflect early also. This has two benefits, one it increases my initial aggro even more, and two it means it will come off cooldown faster and I can use it again. It is important to note that if there is some big ranged attack coming up soon from the boss, you should save reflect for that.

 

Then I basically use the following on cooldown, in this priority order: Blade Storm, Guardian Strike, Riposte (becomes higher priority if the buff is close to ending), Force Sweep, Hilt Strike, Master Strike. Sometimes I throw in taunts to fluff my aggro even more, but usually it is not needed and I try to save them for emergencies or mechanics.

 

Between those attacks I weave in Sunders if I am below half focus and it is off CD, Slashes if I am at high focus, and Strikes if I am at low focus.

 

Pop Combat Focus and Stasis as needed for additional focus. Occasionally I will use Force Push for some free damage if I am low on focus and know I will not need it any time soon.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Icebergy

[WillLongstick]

On bosses I start off with Leap->Guardian Slash(Riposte)->Hilt Strike(taunt)->Sunder->Force Sweep->Master Strike->AoE taunt+sunder. For my opener.

 

Edited. Guardian Slash is your highest aggro move, Blade Storm is your second highest, and then Hilt Strike followed by Smash. Master Strike fits somewhere in there depending if you look at its threat over the whole channel or just the last tick.

Edited May 27, 2013 by WillLongstick

[Icebergy]

Yea I forgot it, but then I edited it back in, not sure how you missed that half hour later, it was only a few minutes.

[Kitru]

On bosses I start off with Leap->Guardian Slash(Riposte)->Hilt Strike(taunt)->Blade Storm->Sunder->Force Sweep->Master Strike->AoE taunt+sunder. For my opener.

 

I'm surprised you don't open with Saber Throw and that you wait so long to put the armor debuff on the target. The standard really is Throw>Leap>Sweep(since it does more damage than Sunder and won't cause wasted Focus generation)>GS>Sunder>BS. Riposte doesn't really have to be mentioned since it's really just "use it on CD". That opening volley is just the most resource efficient and frontloads threat exceptionally well (Sweep has 30% increased threat and GS is high threat; using those as your first 2 non-entry attacks pushes your threat *really* high really fast, and, as a nice side benefit, it's the best setup for multi-target threat generation).

[Icebergy]

My DPS will pull aggro mid force leap if I open with throw.

[Kitru]

My DPS will pull aggro mid force leap if I open with throw.

 

Kinda surprised you don't just tell em to wait the GCD. Leaping in before the tank is *always* a bad idea. It's not like they're losing all that much. Reminds me of the Sents that like to leap in while I'm still moving on my way to the boss on my Shadow.

[Icebergy]

I've tried. It just comes down to its easier to adjust my own play than to nag them until they change.

[NoFishing]

I've tried. It just comes down to its easier to adjust my own play than to nag them until they change.

 

Then let them have the aggro for the 5 seconds. They'll get over it. :-)

[Marb]

Asking dps to hold off on the first 1-2 GCD's and not to burn relics/adrenals on the pull is perfectly acceptable, but not widely recognized as normal ops etiquette. I think its incorrect to assume the tank is playing badly by using a taunt fluff, when both Kitru and Grall would admit that dps take certain considerations into account for the tanks in the groups they run with. For many groups, it's not expected that the dps will behave in this way, and this is where a taunt fluff can be a required safety net.

 

If everyone goes as soon as the tank does, there a few dps classes that can predictably out threat a tank at the start of a fight with their adrenal and relic (and for some classes an adrenal isn't even necessary to do this). Asking dps to hold for the first couple of GCD's and/or not burning relics/adrenals is a way of the group letting the tank do their job, the other is the tank taking it upon themselves by taunt fluffing to let the dps go nuts (for juggs we can cheese with saber reflect).

 

I've tried. It just comes down to its easier to adjust my own play than to nag them until they change.

The same ultimatum I came to.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Marb

[Kitru]

I think its incorrect to assume the tank is playing badly by using a taunt fluff, when both Kitru and Grall would admit that dps take certain considerations into account for the tanks in the groups they run with.

 

My DPS start raining hell on the boss as soon as I throw my first attack on 'em. The only "consideration" I expect is to have the first attack, which is pretty standard for all groups. For a Guardian tank, at least, I think the generally accepted standard is to wait until they leap in (so Throw>Leap) since the first is needed to effectively set up their resource management and initial threat generation. When DPS break that generally accepted standard, you're going to arrive at something of a playstyle disconnect.

 

Whenever I'm running with a group, if a DPS jumps in before I do, I just let em keep aggro until they end up dead then take over from there. Teaches em pretty quickly.

[Marb]

Well the only thing I can think of is that you don't have crazy dps. If there is an encounter with no taunt swap, you would be surprised how close the dps ride to the tank when there are no taunts at all in the equation. It only takes an unlucky miss in your opener to loose threat, even if its for a second. And even then, a preemptive taunt isn't much different to a taunt back off a dps. Edited May 28, 2013 by Marb

[commanderpaul]

Well the only thing I can think of is that you don't have crazy dps. If there is an encounter with no taunt swap, you would be surprised how close the dps ride to the tank when there are no taunts at all in the equation. It only takes an unlucky miss in your opener to loose threat, even if its for a second. And even then, a preemptive taunt isn't much different to a taunt back off a dps.

 

cept i dun get hit by a boss that i pulled threat on @ 15%<.< if taunt fluffed

[grallmate]

cept i dun get hit by a boss that i pulled threat on @ 15%<.< if taunt fluffed

 

You also don't get aggro a 15% is you use your threat drop like a good DPS.

 

I've had a look at the best 'burst threat" opener for Guardians and this is what I came up with:

0 - Throw (2200)

1.5 - Leap (1300 -> 3500)

3.0 - Sweep + Combat Focus + Saber Reflect (2800 + 8600 -> 14900)

4.5 - Guardian Slash + Riposte + Taunt (4600 + 2000 -> 21500 + 30% -> 27950)

6.0 - Master Strike (10000 -> 37950)

9.0 - Blade Storm + Riposte (2800 + 2000 -> 42750)

10.5 - Hilt Strike + AoE taunt (3300 -> 46050 + 30% -> 59900)

 

Total TPS = 5700

 

Those numbers are using the minimum values from my logs (not the averages) for each of those abilities and since Throw is largely resource gain and the threat battle actually starts at Leap, effective TPS is 6650. Of course, that assumes I can use Saber Reflect for threat purposes (with no reflects I might add) rather than for mitigation. If we discount that the total threat is: 45300 with a gross TPS of 4300 and an effective TPS of 5030.

 

Personally I use a slightly different rotation that focuses more on getting my survivability mechanisms up and seeding my rotation for later but at the 10.5s mark my threat is within 1% of the maximum. I just have a slightly lower curve until the 7.5s mark thanks to the delayed Master Strike.

[Nailkita]

My first tank is just now 54 (hoping to hit 55 tonight with any luck) and she's in mostly 66s because I can craft the mods for her.

 

I'm trying really hard not to taunt fluff, but I see why so many people might think it's a good idea.

 

Trying to learn to tank once I hit 50, I'm spending a lot of time with crazy pugs that are higher levels and seem to think they can take a hit and getting the healer killed. So I spend a lot of time HAVING to taunt fluff because I'm having to work twice as hard to keep the healer safe, and stopping people from killing themselves (I know I should just let them die but as a healer main I'm too non-confrontational)

 

I'm afraid though this is making me reliant on taunt fluffing in my rotation, after looking at these I'm thinking:

 

Starting out: Sabre Throw > Force Leap > Smash > Crushing Blow > Sundering Assult

Then a priority rotation of: Retaliation > Force Scream > Crushing Blow > Backhand

And Force Dump: Vicious/Sweeping Slash

(Backhand: depending if I might need it for an interrupt or stun)

 

With so many abilities and wanting hot keys available for my like 50 tanking cooldowns, is ravage even something I should consider? Force Choke, and even Vicious throw I see as having usage, but with the channeling and cooldown ravage just seems a waste of my attention.

[Nailkita]

On another note, what do you guys use to track your tps, my guild uses torparse for ops runs, but I dont pay too much attention to how it works, as a healer threat's rarely an issue (with the exception of Hard Mode TFB Operator for some reason) and HPS is kind of pointless to care about as long as nobody's dying and one healer's not spending the whole ops having a panic attack.

 

Is there something I can use to give me a good idea of how I'm doing in fps? I want to be a good tank >.<

[Kitru]

With so many abilities and wanting hot keys available for my like 50 tanking cooldowns, is ravage even something I should consider? Force Choke, and even Vicious throw I see as having usage, but with the channeling and cooldown ravage just seems a waste of my attention.

 

Any time you have 2 or more consecutive open GCDs (should happen pretty often after you dump your Rage/Focus on your 12 second attacks), Ravage/Master Strike is your best attack to use. Yes, it's a channel, but it's free and hits hard, which makes it better than Slash or redundant Strikes. If you are going to use it, it's important to remember to use Revenge/Riposte right before if you can so that you don't either interrupt Ravage/Master Strike or delay Ripose/Revenge.

[Nailkita]

Thanks all for this thread.

 

With this read and the tanking stats one, no one believed I was a fresh tank

[kwestone]

You also don't get aggro a 15% is you use your threat drop like a good DPS.

 

I've had a look at the best 'burst threat" opener for Guardians and this is what I came up with:

0 - Throw (2200)

1.5 - Leap (1300 -> 3500)

3.0 - Sweep + Combat Focus + Saber Reflect (2800 + 8600 -> 14900)

4.5 - Guardian Slash + Riposte + Taunt (4600 + 2000 -> 21500 + 30% -> 27950)

6.0 - Master Strike (10000 -> 37950)

9.0 - Blade Storm + Riposte (2800 + 2000 -> 42750)

10.5 - Hilt Strike + AoE taunt (3300 -> 46050 + 30% -> 59900)

 

Total TPS = 5700

 

Those numbers are using the minimum values from my logs (not the averages) for each of those abilities and since Throw is largely resource gain and the threat battle actually starts at Leap, effective TPS is 6650. Of course, that assumes I can use Saber Reflect for threat purposes (with no reflects I might add) rather than for mitigation. If we discount that the total threat is: 45300 with a gross TPS of 4300 and an effective TPS of 5030.

 

Personally I use a slightly different rotation that focuses more on getting my survivability mechanisms up and seeding my rotation for later but at the 10.5s mark my threat is within 1% of the maximum. I just have a slightly lower curve until the 7.5s mark thanks to the delayed Master Strike.

 

For Juggernaut translations this page has a list: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-1042.html

[grallmate]

For Juggernaut translations this page has a list: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-1042.html

 

I'l just post the translation. Save people some time.

 

You also don't get aggro a 15% is you use your threat drop like a good DPS.

 

I've had a look at the best 'burst threat" opener for Guardians and this is what I came up with:

0 - Throw (2200)

1.5 - Leap (1300 -> 3500)

3.0 - Sweep + Combat Focus + Saber Reflect (2800 + 8600 -> 14900)

4.5 - Guardian Slash + Riposte + Taunt (4600 + 2000 -> 21500 + 30% -> 27950)

6.0 - Master Strike (10000 -> 37950)

9.0 - Blade Storm + Riposte (2800 + 2000 -> 42750)

10.5 - Hilt Strike + AoE taunt (3300 -> 46050 + 30% -> 59900)

 

Total TPS = 5700

 

0 - Throw (2200)

1.5 - Charge (1300 -> 3500)

3.0 - Smash + Enrage + Saber Reflect (2800 + 8600 -> 14900)

4.5 - Crushing Blow + Retaliation + Taunt (4600 + 2000 -> 21500 + 30% -> 27950)

6.0 - Ravage (10000 -> 37950)

9.0 - Scream + Retaliation (2800 + 2000 -> 42750)

10.5 - Backhand + AoE taunt (3300 -> 46050 + 30% -> 59900)