Lightsaber Forms in SWTOR

[Meniphos]

Nobody studies vapaad. Also the idea it's a path to the dark side makes sense considering juyo is originally a Sith style Edited February 7, 2015 by Meniphos
incorect spelling

[Ghisallo]

Game mechanic with no foundation in lore; pay it no mind.

 

 

 

Not really, since people even on this planet are capable of flips and such without use of the Force. From my perspective, Ataro should have been the form for the Focus/Rage tree, since that's the acrobatic tree with two leaps. Niman, or, rather, the original Form from which it was derived, Jar-Kai, should have been a Sentinel/Marauder form (probably for Combat), since Jar-Kai was the original dual-wield specific Form.

 

I do agree, though, that Forms would have been appropriate for Consulars - Shadows at the very least, since they do actively use their lightsabers for more than boredom or regen.

 

The only form really appropriate for consulate would have been one...Niman. The entire point of a consular vs a Jedi Knight is that the Consular focuses on the mastery of the force. As a Shadow you are either learning to channel force into shields, TK, internal attacks etc or you are learning to use the force itself, at close range, to rip your opponents apart (as well as TK again). In the big scheme of things lightsaber attacks are secondary...tertiary if you are a sage.

 

Since it is one form, no need for a toggle. This form in the lore of the game is even described as the Consular's form. The knight is just the opposite. He is all about using the force to better master the art of the Light Saber... Thus he learns multiple forms as he seeks to master the exquisite art of the blade.

 

Now people will say "but Yoda was a Consular!!!!!!". Yep, maybe, BUT he was also HUNDREDS of years old.

 

when 900 years old you reach, learn more than Niman you may...hmmmmm

Edited February 8, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

I'm very passionate about hilts, grips, and stances too. Here's a fun read for everyone. A thread I started a few years back on this topic. Check it out and see if it has anything to add to your ideas so you don't have to reinvent the concept you have in mind.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=239799

 

The problem I have is with anyone who thinks the reverse hold of Starkiller etc makes sense. It makes sense with a single edged knife, if you are fighting defensively. It allows you to use your forearm for support if you have to do a strong block, and allows for a rapid slash in response after a block as well as strong downward thrusts in the VERY close work of a knife fight.

 

With a sword it makes very little sense though as it eliminates many advantages. You lose reach and the ability for a full follow through strike. You almost have to DW because it limits the coverage of your defense, unless you want to risk cutting yourself in half, and also makes thrusts much more difficult to perform.

 

The first time I saw that stance I was like "omg what complete idiot came up with this?". It is the sword fighting version of the " gangsta style" pistol grip.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Ghisallo

[stpendleton]

No Makashi? What a shame. Give some forms to the sorcerer/counselor. They do carry a light saber after all.

[stpendleton]

What what I would like to see is for them to input froms into the Consular and Knight (and of course with sith classes as well). Here's what I was thinking:

 

Knight

Start With Basic Shii-Cho

Learn Intermidiate Shii-Cho at middle of Focus Tree as Passive

Learn Mastered Shii-Cho at end of Focus Tree as Passive

Gaurdian:

Learn Basic Soresu at start of Defense Tree

Learn Intermidiate/Advanced Soresu passive at middle

Learn Mastered at end

Learn Basic Shien at start of Vigilance Tree

Learn Intermidiate/Advance Shien passive in middle

Learn Mastered at end

Extra Option of Learning Djem So when finish Storyline

Sentinel:

Learn Basic Jar-Kai at start of Watchman Tree

Learn Intermidiate/Advanced Jar-Kai passive in middle

Learn Mastered at end

Learn Basic Ataru at start of Combat Tree

Learn Intermidiate/Advanced Ataru passive in middle

Learn Mastered at end

Extra Option of learning Juyo when finish Storyline

 

Consular

Start with Basic Niman

Learn Intermidiate Niman at middle of Balance Tree as Passive

Learn Mastered Niman at end of Balance Tree as Passive

Sage:

Learn Intermidiate/Advanced Niman at middle of Seer Tree

Done learning forms for Seer

Learn Basic Makashi at start of Telekinetics Tree

Learn Intermidiate/Advanced Makashi passive at middle

Learn Mastered at end

Shadow:

Learn Basic Soresu at start of Kinetic Combat Tree

Learn Intermidiate/Advanced Soresu passive at middle

Learn Mastered at end

Learn Basic Djem So at start of Infiltration Tree

Learn Intermidiate/Advanced Djem So passive at middle

Learn Mastered at end

Extra option of learning Juyo form when finish Storyline

 

Obviously some balancing issues would appear, so they would have to fix that too. I would also like to see animations for all the different forms though that might be asking for a bit much. Please people tell me what you think!!

 

I agree with this except I think Makashi should be available to both sides.

[Leklor]

The problem I have is with anyone who thinks the reverse hold of Starkiller etc makes sense. It makes sense with a single edged knife, if you are fighting defensively. It allows you to use your forearm for support if you have to do a strong block, and allows for a rapid slash in response after a block as well as strong downward thrusts in the VERY close work of a knife fight.

 

With a sword it makes very little sense though as it eliminates many advantages. You lose reach and the ability for a full follow through strike. You almost have to DW because it limits the coverage of your defense, unless you want to risk cutting yourself in half, and also makes thrusts much more difficult to perform.

 

The first time I saw that stance I was like "omg what complete idiot came up with this?". It is the sword fighting version of the " gangsta style" pistol grip.

 

You could argue however that it makes your strikes much less predictable.

If the wielder is skilled enough to negate the drawbacks it can become a viable tactic.

Also remember that Jedis and Sith don't fight according to our rules, both in terms of general physics and tactics.

Fiction is a thriving ground to present completely outlandish fighting styles (Reverse grip is, honestly, one of the least ridiculous I have seen.).

I'd say reverse grip is mostly meant to be used in combination with extremely acrobatic combat moves that takes advantage from the position of the blade (See Ahsoka in TCW).

And TOR did present us with worse, I mean, Satele's master in Return dual-wields a double-bladed saber and a single one.

[Diviciacus]

You could argue however that it makes your strikes much less predictable.

No, it makes you much more predictable, because you have a limited range of things you can do without stabbing yourself.

If the wielder is skilled enough to negate the drawbacks it can become a viable tactic.

The drawback is not being able to move your lightsaber through your own body. That's literally impossible to negate.

Also remember that [Jedi] and Sith don't fight according to our rules, both in terms of general physics and tactics.

Fiction is a thriving ground to present completely outlandish fighting styles (Reverse grip is, honestly, one of the least ridiculous I have seen.).

If you're referring to the ridiculous things like lightwhips from the Mary-Sue era of the EU, I have to agree.

 

I'd say reverse grip is mostly meant to be used in combination with extremely acrobatic combat moves that takes advantage from the position of the blade (See Ahsoka in TCW).

I haven't actually watched the CGI Clone Wars so I know very little about Ahsoka Tano, but I should like to point out that Sentinels use the reverse grip during Master Strike's animation, and Marauder/Juggernaut use it during the animation of an ability whose name escapes me. It does exist in TOR, but only as an individual strike, not an entire form.

 

Sentinels use it as a simple method of effectively reaching behind themselves, and Marauder/Juggernaut use it in the way you'd hold a sword in a reverse grip: to put the weight of your body into the power behind a downward stab.

 

And TOR did present us with worse, I mean, Satele's master in Return dual-wields a double-bladed saber and a single one.

Right. And he impales Darth Vindican with it because he used it like a regular lightsaber, and the Sith forgot it had a second blade.

[JediMasterRevan]

Guardian "should" have the most saber vs saber forms and has 0 which is a big disappointment. Would love Juyo and Makashi for Guardian. Hopefully they'll make more trees and fix it so we have new animations based on what form and Niman would be perfect for Consular/Inq.

[CrutchCricket]

It's been a while since I've played Force Unleashed but I seem to remember most of the strikes were actually delivered using a normal grip. The reverse grip was just in the stance, for style. It's more obvious in the second one where's he's dual wielding.

 

- seems like he's striking normally.

 

Besides, for Starkiller the lightsaber is superfluous anyway.

[Diviciacus]

Besides, for Starkiller the lightsaber is superfluous anyway.

 

Yea, the minutiae don't matter when your name is Mary Sue /eyeroll

[CrutchCricket]

Yea, the minutiae don't matter when your name is Mary Sue /eyeroll

U jelly?

[Diviciacus]

U jelly?

 

Has nothing to do with jealousy. Being the best at everything with literally no flaws makes for a garbage protagonist and a pointless story.

 

But then, Force Unleashed is a console game, so I'm not sure why I expected better.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Diviciacus

[BrianDavion]

ICly the JK is a master of all 7 forms. he has to be to be battlemaster of the Jedi order IIRC

[CrutchCricket]

Has nothing to do with jealousy. Being the best at everything with literally no flaws makes for a garbage protagonist and a pointless story.

 

But then, Force Unleashed is a console game, so I'm not sure why I expected better.

Did you skip the cutscenes or something? Starkiller has plenty of flaws. Gullibility, social ineptitude, short-sightedness, lack of direction and so on.

 

He's basically a tool throughout the game and is fundamentally an undeveloped human being. And while he may be able to toss guys around with a sneeze he can't even meditate without freaking out and breaking stuff.

 

But let me guess, you just looked at the Star Destroyer part and went "omg overpowered"

Edited July 31, 2015 by CrutchCricket

[Diviciacus]

Did you skip the cutscenes or something? Starkiller has plenty of flaws. Gullibility, social ineptitude, short-sightedness, lack of direction and so on.

 

He's basically a tool throughout the game and is fundamentally an undeveloped human being. And while he may be able to toss guys around with a sneeze he can't even meditate without freaking out and breaking stuff.

 

But let me guess, you just looked at the Star Destroyer part and went "omg overpowered"

 

Being a moron doesn't negate his ridiculous "playground-oneupmanship" level of skill with both the Force and a lightsaber.

 

But that was exactly my point. He's little more than an angsty teenager (he even looks the part, right down the the vaguely skinheadedness) with ridiculously overblown power. And in that regard, the developers of Force Unleashed were very savvy in tailoring their protagonist to their target audience. Even if it does, sadly, cheapen the narrative; "grown man acting like a seventeen year old" isn't really an interesting character flaw.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Diviciacus

[CrutchCricket]

Being a moron doesn't negate his ridiculous "playground-oneupmanship" level of skill with both the Force and a lightsaber.

Who does he one up? A few Jedi we've never heard of? Shaak Ti? Big whoop. Yeah he beats Vader but anyone with two minutes of lore reading could tell you Vader's damaged goods. Vader's thing was never one-upping everyone, ironically.

 

But that was exactly my point. He's little more than an angsty teenager (he even looks the part, right down the the vaguely skinheadedness) with ridiculously overblown power. And in that regard, the developers of Force Unleashed were very savvy in tailoring their protagonist to their target audience. Even if it does, sadly, cheapen the narrative; "grown man acting like a seventeen year old" isn't really an interesting character flaw.

-Sees story about a character.

-Says character cheapens story.

 

Seems legit.

 

You liking the character or finding his flaws interesting or not does not negate them. Thus by definition he's not a Mary Sue.

Edited July 31, 2015 by CrutchCricket

[Diviciacus]

Who does he one up? A few Jedi we've never heard of? Shaak Ti? Big whoop. Yeah he beats Vader but anyone with two minutes of lore reading could tell you Vader's damaged goods. Vader's thing was never one-upping everyone, ironically.

 

(I apologize in advance if the following paragraph sounds condescending; it is not meant to.) I see you didn't understand what I meant by that particular phrase, but it is unsurprising. I kind of had to make it up, given that I don't think there's even a term for the phenomena. (Or perhaps there is and I've simply never heard of it.) But you know what I'm talking about: two children arguing during recess on the playground about something, each trying to one-up the other. It's a very immature notion, one that most people thankfully abandon as they gain the wisdom and experience to know that they don't need to be - and never will be anyway - the best at everything, nor likely indeed the best at any one thing, either.

 

It is - or was - a common problem in Star Wars media (largely the printed format), and a large reason of why I refer to the majority of the EU books published after about 1995 as the "Mary-Sue era." Every new wretched spawn of the Skywalker clan had to be stronger in the Force and a better duelist than the last. Every new wretched Sith had to be more powerful and more evil than the last. Every wretched everything had to be better than the last, and it just got wildly out of control. I thank Disney for throwing that out the window.

 

Starkiller is the same thing. Even his nickname smacks of teenage angst "grimdark": Star. Killer. Seriously? Why not just go by Galen Marak, his actual name? His entire existence is to cater to teenage (boys); he thinks and acts like one, despite the fact that he's in his 20's. Apart from one crucial difference: the power fantasy. Whereas the average teenager is pretty powerless in all respects, Starkiller is the best lightsaber combatant in the history of ever, and by all the gods above and below even with virtually no training, he's stronger in the Force than a hundred Yodas working in concert.

 

That is why The Force Unleashed and its sequel are garbage games from a narrative standpoint (the sequel was garbage because they got rid of everything that at least made the combat in the first game fun, but that's irrelevant to this discussion). That is why Starkiller is a Mary Sue. Not because he's flawless (even though his flaws are really just there to make him more relateable to the target audience). His flaws impact neither his ability with the Force nor his lightsaber skill, so they essentially don't matter. He's a Mary Sue because he's mind-breakingly illogically the best at two things with which he should be - best case scenario - stunningly mediocre.

 

Also, we derailed this thread pretty hard. I'm sorry, OP ;_;

Edited July 31, 2015 by Diviciacus

[BrianDavion]

Starkiller is the same thing. Even his nickname smacks of teenage angst "grimdark": Star. Killer. Seriously? Why not just go by Galen Marak, his actual name?

 

you DO realize the name Starkiller is a homage to the original rough drafts of SW right?

[Diviciacus]

you DO realize the name Starkiller is a homage to the original rough drafts of SW right?

 

While I'm aware of the original name of the SW protagonist being Starkiller... I never did put two and two together. Interesting bit of trivia; thank you.

[sithlordwulf]

(I apologize in advance if the following paragraph sounds condescending; it is not meant to.) I see you didn't understand what I meant by that particular phrase, but it is unsurprising. I kind of had to make it up, given that I don't think there's even a term for the phenomena. (Or perhaps there is and I've simply never heard of it.) But you know what I'm talking about: two children arguing during recess on the playground about something, each trying to one-up the other. It's a very immature notion, one that most people thankfully abandon as they gain the wisdom and experience to know that they don't need to be - and never will be anyway - the best at everything, nor likely indeed the best at any one thing, either.

 

It is - or was - a common problem in Star Wars media (largely the printed format), and a large reason of why I refer to the majority of the EU books published after about 1995 as the "Mary-Sue era." Every new wretched spawn of the Skywalker clan had to be stronger in the Force and a better duelist than the last. Every new wretched Sith had to be more powerful and more evil than the last. Every wretched everything had to be better than the last, and it just got wildly out of control. I thank Disney for throwing that out the window.

 

Starkiller is the same thing. Even his nickname smacks of teenage angst "grimdark": Star. Killer. Seriously? Why not just go by Galen Marak, his actual name? His entire existence is to cater to teenage (boys); he thinks and acts like one, despite the fact that he's in his 20's. Apart from one crucial difference: the power fantasy. Whereas the average teenager is pretty powerless in all respects, Starkiller is the best lightsaber combatant in the history of ever, and by all the gods above and below even with virtually no training, he's stronger in the Force than a hundred Yodas working in concert.

 

you sound like a big starkiller FANBOY , how could you even say that star killer is the best light saber user EVER that is plain stupid . He has **** defense and no mastery of one single form he uses many and most form 5 . But he would get his *** handed to him by young obiwan , Yoda would beat that little boy like nothing . Even general grievous has a great shot at killing star killer who has no defense to grievous constant attacks it would be a quick death ! If he didn't use the force .

[CrutchCricket]

But you know what I'm talking about: two children arguing during recess on the playground about something, each trying to one-up the other. It's a very immature notion, one that most people thankfully abandon as they gain the wisdom and experience to know that they don't need to be - and never will be anyway - the best at everything, nor likely indeed the best at any one thing, either.

 

It is - or was - a common problem in Star Wars media (largely the printed format), and a large reason of why I refer to the majority of the EU books published after about 1995 as the "Mary-Sue era." Every new wretched spawn of the Skywalker clan had to be stronger in the Force and a better duelist than the last. Every new wretched Sith had to be more powerful and more evil than the last. Every wretched everything had to be better than the last, and it just got wildly out of control. I thank Disney for throwing that out the window.

That does not appy here. What you're talking about is power creep and it happens in every ongoing franchise. Basically each threat needs to be stronger than the last to be exciting. It gets ridiculous if taken too far, sure. But that's not what happens here. The threats in this game aren't particularly massive. And neither is the protagonist when compared to the aforementioned EU works.

 

And Disney can go **** themselves, sideways, forever.

 

Starkiller is the same thing. Even his nickname smacks of teenage angst "grimdark": Star. Killer. Seriously? Why not just go by Galen Marak, his actual name?

Clearly you're unaware of the real life history behind the name Starkiller. It was the original name of the protagonist in early drafts of Star Wars- Annikin Starkiler. Using it is part in-joke, part symbolism as Galen Marek was envisioned as a what-if reflection of Luke, specifically, what if Luke had been raised by Vader.

 

His entire existence is to cater to teenage (boys); he thinks and acts like one, despite the fact that he's in his 20's. Apart from one crucial difference: the power fantasy. Whereas the average teenager is pretty powerless in all respects, Starkiller is the best lightsaber combatant in the history of ever, and by all the gods above and below even with virtually no training, he's stronger in the Force than a hundred Yodas working in concert.

Again, you seem to speak more from preconceived notions than what's actually in the game. The guy was raised and trained in isolation with only a droid for a companion, and one who's programmed to kill him. If you expect him to be socially capable after that I'd question your mentality.

 

And he's not the best lightsaber combatant by far (indeed, his lightsaber is quite superfluous in gameplay, given throwing ****, with or without lightning is better in every way), his greatest advantage being that he's random and unpredictable given he's self-taught.

 

As for the Force (first off, wat on the no training, since all he's done his entire life is train), he's not more powerful than Yoda. It's simply that his Force application is all out and all-aggressive. Sure he can chuck guys around with a cough and pick up TIE fighters but he can't even meditate without freaking out and wrecking the room. The cost of what he does has actually been codified years before in the Hand of Thrawn- Luke realizes that drawing on the Force to do everything makes you blind to instincts or visions the Force may be trying to tell you. So Yoda didn't struggle to lift the X-Wing because he couldn't, he struggled because he spent more time listening to the Force than trying to use it for great feats of strength. Marek is the opposite. He uses the Force left and right but is nearly deaf to it.

 

That is why Starkiller is a Mary Sue. Not because he's flawless (even though his flaws are really just there to make him more relateable to the target audience). His flaws impact neither his ability with the Force nor his lightsaber skill, so they essentially don't matter. He's a Mary Sue because he's mind-breakingly illogically the best at two things with which he should be - best case scenario - stunningly mediocre.

 

Also, we derailed this thread pretty hard. I'm sorry, OP ;_;

I just told you how his flaws impact his Force use. And his lightsaber use is nothing special. And I'm not just saying that because we have one combo with it. Look at the QTEs and cutscenes. Most of the stuff he does is Force related- he throws things, lifts things, jumps, crushes things or uses Force Lightning. His lightsaber use is very basic, a few slashes and deflecting blaster bolts- something we see every Jedi/Sith do. Lore-wise they do say he's very proficient in Shien, Juyo and Soresu with some knowledge of the other Forms, but then his entire life has been training. Why wouldn't he be?

 

Far from being mediocre, he's exactly what we're told he is. A living weapon, with about the same interpersonal skills.

[Diviciacus]

you sound like a big starkiller FANBOY , how could you even say that star killer is the best light saber user EVER that is plain stupid . He has **** defense and no mastery of one single form he uses many and most form 5 . But he would get his *** handed to him by young obiwan , Yoda would beat that little boy like nothing . Even general grievous has a great shot at killing star killer who has no defense to grievous constant attacks it would be a quick death ! If he didn't use the force .

 

Good gods, man. Close the quote.

 

First, it should be eminently obvious I detest the character. "Starkiller is the best lightsaber combatant in the history of ever, and. . . a hundred Yodas working in concert. " was purely hyperbolic.

 

Second, game mechanics =/= lore. He can't be invincibly good when you're playing the game, or it would have been be a garbage game from a mechanics and gameplay perspective in addition to the story. But story-wise, he's portrayed as being insanely good with both a lightsaber and the Force. He's a virtually untrained apprentice who somehow can easily dispatch Jedi Masters in single combat and pull a Star Destroyer out of orbit? I don't think so.

[CrutchCricket]

you sound like a big starkiller FANBOY , how could you even say that star killer is the best light saber user EVER that is plain stupid . He has **** defense and no mastery of one single form he uses many and most form 5 . But he would get his *** handed to him by young obiwan , Yoda would beat that little boy like nothing . Even general grievous has a great shot at killing star killer who has no defense to grievous constant attacks it would be a quick death ! If he didn't use the force .

Actually I believe he was being sarcastic or overexaggerating to make a point. But to your points:

 

Starkiller is almost pure offence but he has enough Soresu to hold his own if forced on the defensive. This is because he studied and emulated PROXY's Obi-wan simulation.

 

As for the matchups- he wouldn't break Obi-wan's lightsaber defense (Obi-wan being the Soresu Master) but he could overwhelm him with the Force. Unless by "young Obi-wan" you mean Ep1 Padawan Obi-wan in which case lolno. But comparing them at their best, Obi-wan would have the lightsaber advantage, but Marek might win on sheer Force and agression.

 

Yoda would have no problem against Marek in any category.

 

Grievous would get crushed by Marek's Force powers. Marek's Soresu might be enough to hold off Grievous for a time, but since it's not perfect and Grievous is a cyborg that can't tire, Grievous would win in pure lightsaber combat.

Edited August 27, 2015 by CrutchCricket

[CrutchCricket]

Second, game mechanics =/= lore. He can't be invincibly good when you're playing the game, or it would have been be a garbage game from a mechanics and gameplay perspective in addition to the story. But story-wise, he's portrayed as being insanely good with both a lightsaber and the Force. He's a virtually untrained apprentice who somehow can easily dispatch Jedi Masters in single combat and pull a Star Destroyer out of orbit? I don't think so.

If you continue to perpetuate this false claim, I don't think further discussion is viable.

 

And again no, he's not portrayed as being "insanely good" lightsaber-wise and all his victories against his opponents are primarily Force-powered.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

So far I've seen:

 

Soresu

Juyo

Ataru

Shii-cho

Shien

 

 

Is that all of them?

 

In the game? Yes.

 

In actual Starwars lore? No.

 

There are MANY Lightsaber Forms.

 

Forms I through VII are the traditional forms that consist of, Shii-Cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Shien/Djem So, Niman, and Juyo/Vaapad.

 

There are also other forms such as, Sokan, Jar'Kai, Trakata, and Trispzest.