Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

[Warren-Stride]

Ziost all but vanished off the face of the galaxy until the Sith Empire returned, even Darth Revan didn't establish a powerbase on Ziost, Exar Kun's Empire had established a cult on Ziost that the Republic never even knew of, Revan merely held them as allies, when Traya usurped the power of all the Sith warlords spread throughout the galaxy, it included Ziost itself.

 

As you have said, no one has bothered with Zoist for quite some time. Even Revan. There is no reason Traya would up and move to a planet that has been abandoned for hundreds of years.

 

On the other hand, we've already seen that she has forces in the Korriban academy and thinks highly of the place, which is the Sith homeworld.

"Korriban shall be as it always was. A graveyard for the darkest of the Sith Lords, still whispering within their tombs. It shall always be a source of evil, spawning threats throughout the millennia." - Traya

 

Your argument stems from the assumption that Traya will know of G0-T0's plans to take down the academy via explosive or some other round-about way other then a raid through the academy. The interior is filled with Sith Assassins and is largely defendable. There's no reason for her NOT to go to Korriban.

[LadyKulvax]

Sith forces in KotOR II fell for technological stealth generators the same as everyone else. And there's no reason for Traya to spontaneously teach everyone how to sense them if she doesn't even know G0-T0 will be using it. Which she won't, until he strikes.

 

Of course they did and you are assuming G0-T0 can make his strike before the Sith figure out what one of his main assets is.

 

The pro-G0-T0 arguments are so heavily grounded in assumption I don't know how they are even being taken seriously.

 

The pro-Traya arguments are all likely arguments, as in they have high chances of happening, the invasion of Malachor V is basically this as far as I have read:

 

G0-T0's ship makes it out of hyperspace and cloaks quick enough not to be blown into dust by the ludicrous amounts of turbolaser batteries and missiles being fired at it. makes it through the orbit of Malachor V without being hit by debris or being effected by the mass shadows that make flying near to the planet nigh-impossible(Which they will have to do, unless you of course are suggesting they fire their probes through the orbit of Malachor V, into the planet at terminal velocity and don't get destroyed on impact where ever they manage to land).

 

Then the droids have to make it past the heavily dangerous environment and then either get into the Trayus Core without being destroyed completely by the Dark Side Nexus they'd be exposed to, then not get detected by Traya or other SIth, then plant a bomb, then she maybe does or doesn't get out of the Trayus Core in time, doesn't have her precognition triggered at all and dies OR they manage to get to the MSG without being detected at all by the Sith forces.(Stealth isn't infallible, as we have seen in the game's cutscenes, you can still be detected.) and then interacts long enough to activate the MSG but not long enough to be seen interacting with the thing, without it's stealth field up.

 

AND G0-T0's yacht needs to escape this or he loses all control over all of his droids, as his command center, only command center, has been destroyed.

 

How many leaps of faith and assumptions are in that argument?

 

Even going with this argument, Traya isn't Grand Moff Tarkin, she is smart enough to have a way of evacuating the planet, if she does go to Korriban, which again I find far to obvious, they will know how heavily G0-T0 relies on Stealth and droids, which means the use of Ion weaponry, which one shot of and the Sith are alerted and by this time the Sith Lords will have been taught Traya's technique, which the Sith Lords will then teach to Marauders and so on, so forth.

 

The longer this Kaggath goes on for, the harder it gets for G0-T0 to win.

[LadyKulvax]

As you have said, no one has bothered with Zoist for quite some time. Even Revan. There is no reason Traya would up and move to a planet that has been abandoned for hundreds of years.

 

On the other hand, we've already seen that she has forces in the Korriban academy and thinks highly of the place, which is the Sith homeworld.

 

And also a very obvious target well known to anyone who bothers with galactic affairs.

 

 

Your argument stems from the assumption that Traya will know of G0-T0's plans to take down the academy via explosive or some other round-about way other then a raid through the academy. The interior is filled with Sith Assassins and is largely defendable. There's no reason for her NOT to go to Korriban.

 

You are also assuming that Traya doesn't learn lessons, if G0-T0 knows of Malachor V, he definitely knows of Korriban, she is not stupid, which seems to be one of the biggest assumptions being made here with the amount of points dependant on her lack of intellect at any given time.

 

She has Ziost to go to, a place that is WAY harder to search than Korriban is or she has a fortress known as the Tomb of Freedon Nadd, basically invulnerable to any attacks besides ground assaults that she can disappear into as well.

 

But say she does go to Korriban, why exactly would she remain in the academy when she can hide in the forgotten tomb of Ludo Kressh, a place that is almost maze like and very easy to escape from compared to the academy or the Valley of the Dark Lords.

[Beniboybling]

*snip*

Good point, allow me to pull together another scenario:

 

Traya: Strike at the entirety of G0-T0's powerbase with full force, and siphon information from his underling crime lords before dispatching them. This includes:

 

 

• Gassing Jekk'Jekk Tarr.
  
• Raiding Exchange bases on Telos IV and Nar Shaddaa.
  
• Sending a fleet to destroy the Nar Shaddaa shipyards and stop production of stealthed freighters.
  
• Full invasion of the HK factory on Telos IV
  

 

After taking heavy damage on his powerbase and having no means to produce additional stealthed ships he is forced to go himself to perform another attack. Bypassing the interdiction fleet in the way Warren suggested he arrives at the planet and prepares to launch pods disguised as debris. However Traya made steps to prevent G0-T0 from landing forces using stealthed vessels and in fact expects the Visionary to come personally and is awaiting an attack. With Sith fighters spread throughout the debris as soon as the pods are fired they have a lock on its location and can destroy it

[Wolfninjajedi]

Almost to 600 posts yay! Sorry got nothing really to add at this point, am just tired of this. Edited March 17, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

I have to agree with LadyKulvax (or whatever you prefer to be called). Traya isn't stupid. She isn't going to go to the most obvious spot and sit around twiddling her thumbs. If she does go to Korriban, there are plenty of places for her to camp out in that are far more defendable than the Academy.

 

Or she can visit the Tomb of Freedon Nadd and set up there. Or maybe Ziost. She has many options. Korriban isn't the only place for her to go.

 

And here's the thing. While she's busy stringing along G0-T0's forces, her assassins are doing what they do best: infiltration and assassination. G0-T0's going to find bodies piling up while he is busy looking for Traya. And if he isn't looking for Traya, he is just giving her more time to tear his powerbase apart.

[LadyKulvax]

I have to agree with LadyKulvax (or whatever you prefer to be called)

 

Rayla would be fine thank you, so people remember who I am, it seems the purple font isn't working.

[Aurbere]

Rayla would be fine thank you, so people remember who I am, it seems the purple font isn't working.

 

Well it worked for me, but Rayla it is!

[Selenial]

Score another supporter of Rayla and Aubere...

Traya isn't stupid, far from it, she's a manipulative Sith Lord, you don't become the most influential sith alive by making stupid mistakes.....

Hell, not only would she certainly not go and just sit in the academy, she could easy lure G0-T0 into combat in the academy whilst residing somewhere else... If she can draw the bulk of his forces in there it would be very easy to bomb it or send troops barraging in to kill anyone in there....

 

But that's only IF she goes to koriban, personally I see her heading to Ziost or another planet out of the way, with enough of a base to sustain her forces.... And let's not forget, GO-T0 wouldn't have the rescourses to set a trap everywhere she might go....

 

Sorry for the short reply, is delve into this thread more but I'm currently in Edinburgh, and only got my iPhone on me

 

And Rayla, it was your purple writing Combined with your love of the exile and hatred of revan fanboys that gave it away for me in the first thread you replied in no less

Oh, and you used a Cyan font too, people might just remember that one ^.^

Edited March 17, 2013 by Selenial

[GarfieldJL]

But as I explained this wouldn't be the case, allow me to elaborate:

 

G0-T0 makes preparations to capture Traya's fleet, which he assumes is in orbit above Malachor V. Once ready he dispatches his task force to the planet. However en route they are pulled out of hyperspace by the interdiction forces (2 Interdictor-class cruisers) and their gravity well generators. This provides the HK's with an oppurtunity. Now I'm making the assumption here that G0-T0 can't just intercept ship-to-ship tramissions an attach a virus to it, he at least has to be in direct communication with the vessel and in a position to transmit that kind of data. Capturing these two vessels is an opportunity they won't be able to resist. Because it puts them in a position to capture the entire fleet.*

 

To cover his bases, the freighters will likely be equipped with jammers to prevent the Interdictors warning the rest of the fleet. However as G0-T0 boards the vessels and activates the virus, what he won't realise is that the Sith on board will be in constant telepathic communication with Traya and will relay what is happening. Allowing the rest of the fleet to prepare.

 

So, G0-T0 captures himself two Interdictors and plots course for Malachor V, hoping to open channels with the rest of the fleet and transmit the virus. However the fleet will be prepared and have disabled all forms of communication/wireless tramissions on their vessels. Making hacking impossible. They'll then send Sith fighters (of which they'll have roughly 500 of) carrying Sith assassins, to board the vessel and use breath control to survive long enough to kill the HKs on board and recapture the ships. And if that fails, blow them up.

 

So the maximum amount of ships G0-T0 can capture is 2, and if he falls into Traya's trap he will lose those 2.

 

*G0-T0 has to strike fast, he simply can't afford to outfit 10+ freighters with stygium cloaking devices because this takes time. Freighters aren't designed to generate that much energy so they'll have to be completely re-modified. Doing this with 10+ freighters could take weeks, he only has time to produce 2 or 3.

 

You seriously didn't understand what I'm suggesting.

 

Since you said they couldn't hack the computers via the comm signals, my backup scenario would work just as well at seizing most, if not the entire fleet.

1. HK Units do not require air, so a freighter can carry more units than it could carry people
   
   • A freighter the size of G0-T0's ship can probably carry at least 40 to 60 HK units on board, due to the fact an HK unit doesn't need air
     
   • A squad of 4 units would mean 10 ships to 15 ships can get attacked at same time
     
   • A squad of 3 units could mean that 13 to 20 ships can be attacked at the same time
     

[*]I said nothing about jamming any communication signals, quite the opposite, a few burst signals that are encrypted would be necessary to coordinate this plan

• The plan is operating under the premise of the droid teams coordinating their strikes on each ship so that there is no time for the other ships to react
  
• The plan is also operating under the premise of taking the bridge and shutting down life support, and/or venting the entire ship using the bridge controls, not a virus
  

[*]A good size squad of HK units for the intial strike on each capital ship would be 3 to 4 units, they would only need some shaped charges, their built in weapons, some blaster or disrupter rifles, backup blasters, and grenades. This wouldn't take up much space.

[*]If HK units can magnetize their feet, they will be able to walk on the outer hull of the capital ships, thus bypassing any organics and ensuring that the operation isn't compromised.

[*]Freighters can approach the capital ships from the rear where their sensors are the least effective, drop off 3 to 4 HK units on that ship

• If they have to decloak the drive wash from the capital ships' own engines will mask the freighter's signature
  
• If they don't have to decloak, there is no possible way for Traya's ships to get any warning.
  

[*]It would only require 2 to 3 freighters to pull this operation off

 

So with 2 to 3 freighters, which you just admitted G0-T0 could get outfitted in a short enough time frame, a bunch of HK units (G0-T0 has hundreds if not thousands of HK units he can call on), and some explosives (which are easy for G0-T0 to acquire, assuming he doesn't have them already), and he can take down a significant portion of Traya's fleet (if not the entire fleet present where he is attacking), all at once.

 

Backup plan of the backup plan:

 

If the droids can't shut down lifesupport after taking the bridge of each ship, they can steer ths ships into ramming each other and then potentially abandon ship (maybe some will survive), in any case every ship will be disabled or destroyed.

 

Good point, allow me to pull together another scenario:

 

Traya: Strike at the entirety of G0-T0's powerbase with full force, and siphon information from his underling crime lords before dispatching them. This includes:

 

 

• Gassing Jekk'Jekk Tarr.
  
• Raiding Exchange bases on Telos IV and Nar Shaddaa.
  
• Sending a fleet to destroy the Nar Shaddaa shipyards and stop production of stealthed freighters.
  
• Full invasion of the HK factory on Telos IV
  

 

After taking heavy damage on his powerbase and having no means to produce additional stealthed ships he is forced to go himself to perform another attack. Bypassing the interdiction fleet in the way Warren suggested he arrives at the planet and prepares to launch pods disguised as debris. However Traya made steps to prevent G0-T0 from landing forces using stealthed vessels and in fact expects the Visionary to come personally and is awaiting an attack. With Sith fighters spread throughout the debris as soon as the pods are fired they have a lock on its location and can destroy it

 

Gassing the Jekk'Jekk Tarr will accomplish what exactly? The air is already poison in that place for humans anyways, which also will poison a human on contact.

 

I can see a raid on Telos, but attacking Nar Shaddaa would be counter-productive, considering the fact it would actually solidify smugglers and bounty hunters behind the leadership of "Goto." Seriously Traya throwing a temper-tantrum isn't going to help her win.

 

Additionally, many of the shipyards of Nar Shaddaa are hidden (particularly since these are freighters, not ships the size of the Harbinger), and you'd need a full scale orbital bombardment to be sure you hit those shipyards (which would turn the fear that smugglers and BHs have of Traya into anger at Traya, galvanizing people into supporting "Goto" to take down Traya isn't going to help Traya win.

 

If you've ever seen the HK droid factory on Telos (courtesy of the restored content mod), you'd realize the odds of a successful invasion like that is rather low. The place and the military factory above it, survived Malak's throwing a temper-tantrum (orbital bombardment) already, making it rather unlikely that would accomplish much.

 

If you've played the restored content mod, you'd know that HK 47 didn't get attacked with the full defenses of the factory due to the fact he was an HK unit. The defenses were designed to repel an invasion of jedi (even stealthed jedi), so the Sith Troopers and assassins are going to be slaughtered...

 

The HK units coordinating the defense didn't take HK 47 seriously (and they would take Sith Assassins/Troopers seriously).

 

So I don't think Traya has the manpower to pull that off.

 

Also G0-T0 is heading up a criminal organization where assassinations are theoretically commonplace, I don't think Traya's assassins would accomplish much given how cutthroat the Exchange can be.

Edited March 17, 2013 by GarfieldJL

[Wolfninjajedi]

HK-50s have onboard weaponry? Source? Edited March 17, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[GarfieldJL]

HK-50s have onboard weaponry? Source?

 

Many combat capable droids had built in weaponary in that era, try playing KotOR I or KotOR II sometime...

 

I have to agree with LadyKulvax (or whatever you prefer to be called). Traya isn't stupid. She isn't going to go to the most obvious spot and sit around twiddling her thumbs. If she does go to Korriban, there are plenty of places for her to camp out in that are far more defendable than the Academy.

 

That is a good point, but G0-T0 can account for that.

 

Or she can visit the Tomb of Freedon Nadd and set up there. Or maybe Ziost. She has many options. Korriban isn't the only place for her to go.

G0-T0 has arguably been to the Tomb of Freedon Nadd, and definately knows of its existance on Dxun. I'm not sure if Traya knows of Ziost's location or not. However, G0-T0 could potentially find Ziost and conduct an orbital bombardment of that planet after taking Traya's fleet just as easily as he could attack Korriban.

 

And here's the thing. While she's busy stringing along G0-T0's forces, her assassins are doing what they do best: infiltration and assassination. G0-T0's going to find bodies piling up while he is busy looking for Traya. And if he isn't looking for Traya, he is just giving her more time to tear his powerbase apart.

 

This is the Exchange we're talking about, not a cocktail party... Infiltration attempts and assassination attempts are common, I think you're seriously over-estimating Traya's assassins...

[Wolfninjajedi]

Many combat capable droids had built in weaponary in that era, try playing KotOR I or KotOR II sometime...

 

I have, but I don't recall any HK droid having onboard weapons.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Canino]

I have, but I don't recall any HK droid having onboard weapons.

 

On wookipedia, under technical specification, and more specifically in the armament section, lists "integrated modular weapon mounts".

 

Armament- Blaster rifle, integrated modular weapon mounts

 

~wookipedia

[Wolfninjajedi]

On wookipedia, under technical specification, and more specifically in the armament section, lists "integrated modular weapon mounts".

 

 

 

~wookipedia

 

Ya...modules, not weapons. They have mods for their blasters.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Canino]

Ya...modules, not weapons. They have mods for their blasters.

 

I know, just trying to clarify.

[GarfieldJL]

I have, but I don't recall any HK droid having onboard weapons.

 

What do you call the flame throwers that T3, HK 47 could have equipped? HK 50 units were based off the HK 47 specifications, additionally HK 50 units did use flame throwers in KotOR II...

 

Just cause something is stated in Wookieepedia, doesn't make it accurate.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Edit: Wait, wait were getting confused here..sorry. By onboard weapons, I was thinking that you were meaning full scale blaster rifles and the like, not flamethrowers. Edited March 17, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

You seriously didn't understand what I'm suggesting.

 

Since you said they couldn't hack the computers via the comm signals, my backup scenario would work just as well at seizing most, if not the entire fleet.

1. HK Units do not require air, so a freighter can carry more units than it could carry people
   
   • A freighter the size of G0-T0's ship can probably carry at least 40 to 60 HK units on board, due to the fact an HK unit doesn't need air
     
   • A squad of 4 units would mean 10 ships to 15 ships can get attacked at same time
     
   • A squad of 3 units could mean that 13 to 20 ships can be attacked at the same time
     

[*]I said nothing about jamming any communication signals, quite the opposite, a few burst signals that are encrypted would be necessary to coordinate this plan

• The plan is operating under the premise of the droid teams coordinating their strikes on each ship so that there is no time for the other ships to react
  
• The plan is also operating under the premise of taking the bridge and shutting down life support, and/or venting the entire ship using the bridge controls, not a virus
  

[*]A good size squad of HK units for the intial strike on each capital ship would be 3 to 4 units, they would only need some shaped charges, their built in weapons, some blaster or disrupter rifles, backup blasters, and grenades. This wouldn't take up much space.

[*]If HK units can magnetize their feet, they will be able to walk on the outer hull of the capital ships, thus bypassing any organics and ensuring that the operation isn't compromised.

[*]Freighters can approach the capital ships from the rear where their sensors are the least effective, drop off 3 to 4 HK units on that ship

• If they have to decloak the drive wash from the capital ships' own engines will mask the freighter's signature
  
• If they don't have to decloak, there is no possible way for Traya's ships to get any warning.
  

[*]It would only require 2 to 3 freighters to pull this operation off

 

So with 2 to 3 freighters, which you just admitted G0-T0 could get outfitted in a short enough time frame, a bunch of HK units (G0-T0 has hundreds if not thousands of HK units he can call on), and some explosives (which are easy for G0-T0 to acquire, assuming he doesn't have them already), and he can take down a significant portion of Traya's fleet (if not the entire fleet present where he is attacking), all at once.

 

Backup plan of the backup plan:

 

If the droids can't shut down lifesupport after taking the bridge of each ship, they can steer ths ships into ramming each other and then potentially abandon ship (maybe some will survive), in any case every ship will be disabled or destroyed.

This plan still suffers from some problems:

 

 

• When the HK units cut through the hull, the bridge will be informed of a hull breach and can initiate lock down procedures. That will lock down the bridge and blast doors, as well as activate defenses including assault droids designed to repel boarding parties. Granted the droids will be stealthed but they'll have to cut through the blast doors, which will all be guarded.
   
   
  
• The Sith Interdictors are crawling with troopers, assassins, assault droids and likely a Sith Commander, who are more than capable of repelling HK units. What's more the bridge will be heavily guarded/sealed.
   
   
  
• If the droids manage to blow the windows on the bridge from the inside or the outside the automatic sealup would be activated, some might be pulled out but any Sith on board would survive, as would the troops at the very far end. 1 Sith Lord is enough to take on 3 or 4 units. And would have enough time to telepathically alert Traya to what has happened and call for reinforcements.
   
   
  
• The bridge controls can be locked down or transferred. That way the HK units would have to hack into the systems, giving the Sith enough time to send some forces to destroy them.
   
   
  
• Venting the entire ship will not destroy the assault droids.
  

 

But lets say the manage to capture the 2 Interdictors that make up the Interdiction fleet, what they won't realise is that despite having jammed their transmissions, the remaining fleet has been alerted telepathically and can prepare accordingly:

 

 

• Lock down the bridge completely, this means seal the windows as well to prevent the HK getting in or at least remove the element of surprise.
   
   
  
• Ambush the Interdictors as soon as the drop out of hyperspace and destroy them, these HK units aren't exactly naval captains.
   
   
  
• Have Sith assassins equipped with breath masks ready to board the ship and repel the invaders. And equip everyone else on the ships with breath masks as well.
  

 

As for your other points, these have been discussed at great lengths and you don't raise any new points so I'm not going to go over them again, but I will say this:

 

 

• Jekk'Jekk Tarr is the perfect place to gas, because its filled with chemical dispensers and all aliens who would normally wear breath masks have them removed. All the assassins need to do is equip themselves with breath masks, sneak in with some patrons then sabotage the chemical dispensers will poison toxic to all species e.g. dioxis and then capture Visquis in his personal lounge. (P.S. The toxins are only poisnous when breathed in, hence why the Exile only used breath control to resist them.)
   
   
  
• And these arguments concerning smugglers and BHs are all well and good, but what's a more vital asset? A bunch of mercenaries or the shipyards producing your stealthed fleet? A bunch of smugglers or your own bases and supplies? What exactly are these guys going to do.
   
  EDIT: Good point about the shipyards, however Traya would simply add them to her list of places to destroy. It will take time but if G0-T0 isn't making any ground it will succeed.
  

Edited March 17, 2013 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

I'd like to know how G0-T0 and his lackeys will hack into Sith ships that were built by Rakatan technology(That's why Sith Interdictors were as strong as Imperial II-class SDs.), how would they make any sense of the technology themselves? the ships were maintained by Rakatan droids, all of which was constructed by the Star Forge.

[Beniboybling]

I'd like to know how G0-T0 and his lackeys will hack into Sith ships that were built by Rakatan technology(That's why Sith Interdictors were as strong as Imperial II-class SDs.), how would they make any sense of the technology themselves? the ships were maintained by Rakatan droids, all of which was constructed by the Star Forge.

The Interdictors were only produced, not designed by the Star Forge, but by Republic Sienar Systems during the Mandalorian Wars - only prototypes however.

[LadyKulvax]

The Interdictors were only produced, not designed by the Star Forge, but by Republic Sienar Systems during the Mandalorian Wars - only prototypes however.

 

The design is of Republic origin, the technology is not however, in-fact the Leviathan was almost entirely based on Rakatan engineering by the time of the battle of Lehon.

[Beniboybling]

The design is of Republic origin, the technology is not however, in-fact the Leviathan was almost entirely based on Rakatan engineering by the time of the battle of Lehon.

Is that so? I was not aware of that. I suppose it makes sense, Malgus had much of his forces upgraded with Rakatan tech using the Foundry.

[Selenial]

I'd like to know how G0-T0 and his lackeys will hack into Sith ships that were built by Rakatan technology(That's why Sith Interdictors were as strong as Imperial II-class SDs.), how would they make any sense of the technology themselves? the ships were maintained by Rakatan droids, all of which was constructed by the Star Forge.

 

And thus, the death blow is dealt... *Slowly claps*

[LadyKulvax]

Is that so? I was not aware of that. I suppose it makes sense, Malgus had much of his forces upgraded with Rakatan tech using the Foundry.

 

Precisely, the technology is the only reason the Interdictors can match an Imperial II, without that tech, they'd get squashed by most Republic navy fleets, think about the battle of the Star Forge, just two Interdictors were taking on a Republic armada and winning until Bastila used Battle Meditation.