Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

[Ventessel]

There is honor among thieves- when all they have are each other. The Battle of Nar Shaddaa. Yes, the Admiral was ordered to lose, but my point is that smugglers can win, and have done it. They also banded together to win, and that's what counts.

 

So, first of you're telling that it counts that they won when the other side was under orders to lose the battle? That speaks volumes for their competence. Furthermore, this battle only took place because the Hutts (the real rulers of Nar Shaddaa) provided the financial backing and logistical muscle for this, which was only made possible because the Imperial commander had ordered the destruction of the entire planetary city.

 

Note, while Taris may linger in people's minds as a vague threat, it's more likely to simply provoke fear and compliance with the Sith. As long as Traya doesn't explicitly order the total bombardment of Nar Shaddaa, then her conflict is only with the Exchange. Apathy will keep the smugglers from banding together because people will not be willing to risk death in open battle against the Sith when there isn't a certainty that their homes will be destroyed, just a certainty that they'll die if they fight against the Sith.

 

The big thing concerning Ravanger [sic] is how the ship was falling apart, Traya isn't prone to want to be a ship that is on the verge of coming apart, quite literally. All were derelicts from the Malachor graveyard (or a good portion of them anyways), they aren't exactly in tip top shape, so if Traya wants to get them ready for prolonged combat, she'll have to get them repaired.

The Ravager was the only ship pulled from the wreckage of Malachor. The rest of the Sith fleet, and their weapons, vehicles, and troops, are remnants from Revan's empire that have been united by Traya. Their vessels will be well-maintained and in top fighting condition.

 

G0-T0 wouldn't mind the Sith doing that, cause it ties up their resources. While G0-T0's pirates don't have to show up to harass everything, the Sith have to escort everything.

 

They won't need constant, or even frequent supplies. All I"m saying is that should they need to restock something, they've got more than enough naval power to escort it.

 

Yes, but they have to feel their boss is vulnerable, and G0-T0 wasn't exactly considered weak. Heck if he's actually got a Sith worried enough to take him on, then seriously people would be afraid of "Goto's" wrath.

You're putting a lot of speculation into the psychology of those criminals. I doubt they're going to think "Wow, Goto made those super-crazy lightsaber swinging Sith Lords angry enough to stop at nothing short of his death? What a cool guy, we should totally not run in the other direction as fast as humanly possible."

 

There is another key thing to remember, if word got out in Traya's ranks that G0-T0 is a droid, Traya's going to be dealing with plots to kill her constantly, it's bad enough she's having problems eliminating a two-bit crime-boss.

Obviously G0-T0 is not a two-bit crime boss, and again, you're speculating quite a bit regarding the psychology of the already fanatically loyal Sith forces. You can't have this sword cut two ways, interpreting the psychology of G0-T0's men favorably and assuming an unfavorable response from Traya's troops.

 

The longer the fight continues the better G0-T0's odds are. For all the damage Traya may cause, the fact she can't immediately eliminate "Goto" and he continually remains active and yet still manages to elude her, the stronger and more capable he seems in the eyes of the underworld.

 

Except for the part where his smuggling is being intercepted more and more frequently, his slaves are being killed off, and his spice sources are attacked and destroyed by Sith warships. That would probably not benefit G0-T0 over time as his money runs out and his subordinates get increasingly worried that:

1. Traya is going to kill them all off one by one, either with assassins or orbital bombardment

2. They're never going to get paid at the rate the Sith are destroying their criminal enterprises

The Exchange doesn't care how long he can go "toe to toe" with a Sith Lord, they care about credits, which will be drying up as Traya's commandos, assassins, and Sith Lords put the squeeze on G0-T0's operations.

 

 

The longer this drags on the better G0-T0's chances of winning, he has significantly less to lose if this turns into a long dragged out conflict

Actually, he has everything to lose. Since he has to limit his communications and stop hijacking freighters, he's already looking reducing some of his operations. As time goes on without a decisive clash between the two, G0-T0 will be bleeding credits as he loses more and more pieces of his smuggling ring, slave trade, and spice production.

 

Traya really has nothing to lose over time, her forces aren't going to mind raiding and bombarding G0-T0's supply network or killing off his underlings wherever they find them. She can easily turn this into a lethal battle of attrition until G0-T0 is forced to strike out at Malachor, where he'll take heavy casualties activating the MSG only to have Traya's forces slip away to Korriban according to their pre-arranged fallback plan.

[Warren-Stride]

So, first of you're telling that it counts that they won when the other side was under orders to lose the battle? That speaks volumes for their competence. Furthermore, this battle only took place because the Hutts (the real rulers of Nar Shaddaa) provided the financial backing and logistical muscle for this, which was only made possible because the Imperial commander had ordered the destruction of the entire planetary city.

 

Note, while Taris may linger in people's minds as a vague threat, it's more likely to simply provoke fear and compliance with the Sith. As long as Traya doesn't explicitly order the total bombardment of Nar Shaddaa, then her conflict is only with the Exchange. Apathy will keep the smugglers from banding together because people will not be willing to risk death in open battle against the Sith when there isn't a certainty that their homes will be destroyed, just a certainty that they'll die if they fight against the Sith.

 

Well, I can see this is going no where, and you're not likely to drop your stance so we can't convince you, but as a final address to the topic of people defending Nar Shaddaa:

 

 

• Traya's fleet is not the Empire's fleet. Not even close. So a smuggler push-back could very well be successful.
   
   
  
• The Hutts are gone, making G0-T0 now the "real ruler" of Nar Shaddaa. He has plenty of resources to make a pushback happen. I mean really, the Exchange forces alone could. Led by the Zhug Brothers, they'd gain support quick.
   
   
  
• Traya doesn't need to "order" anything. Underworld people hate Sith. They know what happens to places like Taris. All G0-T0 has to say is "She's gonna kill you all!" Who're they going to believe? The backstabbing Sith? Or their fellow criminal? In fact, G0-T0 could very well get someone to pose as Traya and make an announcement like that, seeing as no one knows what she looks like. Or use a holo-projector with the tech he uses for "Goto" to construct her and have her make the announcement that she is, in fact, going to blow Nar Shaddaa to bits. Propaganda.
   
   
  
• Traya may be at war with the Exchange. But it is all too easy for G0-T0 to twist it into a war with Nar Shaddaa. The Exchange can stage attacks by Sith on civilians (we know they have lightsabers on hand). They can "intercept" signals from the Sith fleet and the horrible things they plan to do to Nar Shaddaa. Etc.
  

 

Even without a direct threat to themselves, the smugglers are still going to want Traya gone.

Let me remind you that things are pretty good for smugglers and other underworld people at this point. There are no rules, no other governing powers. It's almost anarchy. Almost. One factor stands in their way to the ultimate free market: Traya and her rag-tag beat-up Sith goons. They are the only force left who can control them, and now they're already dictating the Exchange's internal affairs? So not only will fighting back Traya be profitable because working for G0-T0 tends to pay off, but in the long run the underworld will suddenly rule the galaxy.

 

You say they want profit? Messing with the Exchange is

a.) is bad for business

b.) creates a power vaccum

c.) prevents total underworld control

 

No self-respecting criminal is going to let the Sith mess with Nar Shaddaa, the seat of the underworld, when the galaxy is almost completely void of any type of government. Heck, in reality, people from all over the galaxy would be pouring in to make sure the rule of the underworld was complete by the total destruction of powers such as the Sith. But that's a little unfair, so we'll give it a debuff and say just the people of Nar Shaddaa want total anarchy.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Beniboybling]

I am deeply confused, I fail to grasp the logic behind this argument. Warren Stride and others claim that the general underworld population want anarchy and freedom. But who's the organisation that's set up a quasi-planetary government and enforcing a semi-authoritarian dictatorship on Nar Shaddaa? The Exchange. The organisation that's turned the Refugee Sector into a military state, the organisation that seems to have a droid version of the Gestapo covering the planets surface, the organisation that's terrorizing freight ships, the organisation that's aggressively carved a chunk of territory out the moon and subjugated and destroyed anyone who has stood in their way. How exactly is the Exchange promoting anarchy and freedom? Why would anyone actually want the Exchange around?

 

Rather strangely Warren lists 'power vacuum' as a negative effect of the Exchange's downfall. And yet power vacuum effectively means, power up for grabs. All of a sudden that territory that use to belong to the Exchange now belongs whoever-get's-it-first, all of a sudden countless Exchange bases stocked full of weapons, credits etc. are vulnerable and all of a sudden the Exchange no longer have a monopoly on the Black Market.

 

Like you said, the underworld hates outsiders. And anyone outside of the Exchange is an outsider. The underworld isn't made up of one happy family, its filled with factions both minor and major all vying for power. And as for anyone else, the only thing standing in the way of, as you put it, 'an ultimate free market' is that massive criminal corporation who has a unyielding grip over said market, the Exchange. I mean, we are talking about G0-T0 here right? The guy whose yacht was blown to smithereens as soon as it decloaked, by his innumerable number of enemies? Seems to suggest the Exchange weren't exactly popular.

 

But we are failing to see the bigger picture here. In what scenario is Traya going to be invading Nar Shaddaa? What is an army of angry smugglers and bounty hunters going to do to prevent Traya's attacks on the Exchange? I'm not saying that there are no answers to these questions, but without answering them your points are moot.

 

And of course there's the big question: what choice will Exchange members have if Traya threatens them with a lightsaber? Like I said if she tries to convert G0-T0's powerbase its going to be a 'join us or die' policy.

[Beniboybling]

I'm saying unless we're dealing with walking corpses they will still need food, Traya wasn't prone to using that power.

And I'm saying that we are dealing with 'walking corpses'.

 

I'm also saying that Traya doesn't need to prepare her ships for combat, because their isn't going to be any combat. Not that this matters anyway, seeing as only the Ravager was salvaged from the Battle of Malachor V. Why? Because the Leviathan was the only Interdictor to be produced during the Mandalorian Wars, so those ships must have come from Revan's Sith Empire, and will likely be in pretty solid condition. Not that that matters either because they only thing they have to do is plonk themselves on a hyperspace route and activate their gravity well generators.

 

This is the problem here, people seem to be assuming that Traya and G0-T0 are going to engage in some sort of fleet battle, yet neither force has any reason to do this. And query, where exactly is G0-T0 going to procure these fleets from? Bear in mind that this is a rhetorical question and the answer is: he cannot.

 

Let's also remember that Traya has an army of Sith assassins at her disposal who are masters of the art of stealth and inflitration. How are they going to gather information? Sneak aboard a freighter heading for Nar Shaddaa, then land on the planet and start scouting out his base. All under the coverage of cloaking devices of course. Just capture an Exchange thug here and there, interrogate them, kill them and strike. Granted G0-T0 has an intelligence network but he doesn't have eyes everywhere and certainly not eyes that can see through cloaking devices. And even if they do get discovered, how will G0-T0 stop them?

 

I'm also confused about your last point, apparently you don't become a Sith Lord for by being an incompetent idiot, yet somehow this is a point in favour of Traya underestimating G0-T0? And we need context, how is Traya going to underestimate G0-T0? And how will that effect her negatively?

 

Also, the crux of your argument is depending on the fact that the battle will be swinging in G0-T0's favour and remain that way. But if Traya is destroying every other resource he possess and forcing his lieutenants to abandon him then public perception may be very different.

 

P.S. Faking her death is only a tactic to resupply, but seeing as she probably won't have to do that it really doesn't matter if G0-T0 believes she's dead or not.

 

NOTE: Lets get some proper scenarios out guys, at this stage in the Kaggath how is G0-T0 going to kill Traya and how is Traya going to kill G0-T0?

[Warren-Stride]

This is the problem here, people seem to be assuming that Traya and G0-T0 are going to engage in some sort of fleet battle, yet neither force has any reason to do this. And query, where exactly is G0-T0 going to procure these fleets from? Bear in mind that this is a rhetorical question and the answer is: he cannot.

 

I cannot see a fleet battle happening. But I am inclined to point out that the Exchange has plenty of piracy and smuggling ships. And the Zhug brothers have craft of their own as well.

 

Actually, seeing as the Zhug Brothers are Duros, G0-T0 is, effectively, linked to Duro and its starship-making facilities. Of course, the Zhug Brothers would have to take over Duro, seeing as they're exiled. Which would take some resources and time. So not really a great idea, but still, G0-T0 does have a way to get ships, he'll just never do it.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Warren-Stride]

I am deeply confused, I fail to grasp the logic behind this argument. Warren Stride and others claim that the general underworld population want anarchy and freedom. But who's the organisation that's set up a quasi-planetary government and enforcing a semi-authoritarian dictatorship on Nar Shaddaa? The Exchange. The organisation that's turned the Refugee Sector into a military state, the organisation that seems to have a droid version of the Gestapo covering the planets surface, the organisation that's terrorizing freight ships, the organisation that's aggressively carved a chunk of territory out the moon and subjugated and destroyed anyone who has stood in their way. How exactly is the Exchange promoting anarchy and freedom? Why would anyone actually want the Exchange around?

 

Well.... anarchy is the state of no law...

 

The Sith and the Republic put up laws. They enforce them and step on the toes of everyone who tries to break them. Criminals (hense their name) have to deal with these laws. But if the Sith and Republic are gone, no more rules and no more government.

 

Now, there's a difference between anarchy and total lack of structure. Say G0-T0 is some gang. He's fighting with every other gang in New York (Nar Shaddaa). The police (Traya) shows up. Who's the bigger enemy? G0-T0 and his gang, or the police?

 

Now say the police were removed from the equation. Traya is dead, and all the laws *POOF* into thin air. What happens to the gangs? They all expand and their business goes through the roof. They rule the streets, they rule the city. Will there still be gang fights? Of course. But every single gang is better off regardless.

 

So now there's only one unit of police left in the entire U.S. (galaxy). And they're cracking down on one gang. Hard. However, the police are taking losses themselves. Finishing them off means unlimited power for the gang leaders. Do they keep fighting their petty wars, or do they take advantage of this oppertunity to rid themselves of the law that binds forever?

 

Rather strangely Warren lists 'power vacuum' as a negative effect of the Exchange's downfall. And yet power vacuum effectively means, power up for grabs. All of a sudden that territory that use to belong to the Exchange now belongs whoever-get's-it-first, all of a sudden countless Exchange bases stocked full of weapons, credits etc. are vulnerable and all of a sudden the Exchange no longer have a monopoly on the Black Market.

The Exchange will not die with G0-T0. G0-T0 will die. Then everyone will be fighting for his spot. It no longer is a conflict with G0-T0, but a conflict with each other. The underworld becomes a much more dangerous place when everyone's gunning for the top dog spot. Assassinations will be much more common. Everyone will look over their shoulders every waking moment. The Exchange members know this will happen.

 

This is why I say that Traya can choose one Exchange underling to manipulate. If she supports all who want to bring G0-T0 down, they'll see the power vaccum forming and be unwilling to submit themselves to the bloodshed that will ensue. However, this works both ways. If Traya supports one Exchange underling, the others will deny his bid for power and rally behind G0-T0, hoping that one day they'll be the ones to take the droids place, not this guy choosen by the Sith.

 

The last time G0-T0 disappeared it created a power vaccum. Who would take his place? There was no clear person who would take his spot. The internal conflict and the lapse in organization led to a downturn in crime (in otherwords the economy) on Nar Shaddaa for years. [From G0-T0/The Visionary's Wookieepedia page]

 

*By "support" I mean promise G0-T0's position.

And of course there's the big question: what choice will Exchange members have if Traya threatens them with a lightsaber?

None. You're right, they'll have to support Traya. At least for the time she has them at lightsaber point. But remember, these people are sly. If they don't want to bend to Traya's will, they won't. They'll act in their best interest, and if that means slipping away in the middle of the night or playing double agent, they will. And Traya's going to have a harder time finding these people than it seems. Remember the Jekk'Jekk Tar? Yeah, these more important figures are holed up tight.

[Warren-Stride]

NOTE: Lets get some proper scenarios out guys, at this stage in the Kaggath how is G0-T0 going to kill Traya and how is Traya going to kill G0-T0?

 

Well, I don't really know how to completely summarize the Malachor assualt, but it's definately a way G0-T0 could kill Traya. And it's pretty quick to put together, which means G0-T0 will have first strike. For pretty much all of Traya's attacks to pan out, she has to win/escape Malachor.

 

The first strike factor alone is a pretty powerful advantage for G0-T0.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[LadyKulvax]

Well, I don't really know how to completely summarize the Malachor assualt, but it's definately a way G0-T0 could kill Traya. And it's pretty quick to put together, which means G0-T0 will have first strike. For pretty much all of Traya's attacks to pan out, she has to win/escape Malachor.

 

The first strike factor alone is a pretty powerful advantage for G0-T0.

 

I see you are assuming that if Traya decide to set up fortress at the Trayus Academy that means she has almost already lost, I disagree entirely, if she parked her fleet outside of Malachor's pull, no way is some ragtag band of Mercs going to break through that blockade, Nine Interdictors and the Ravager with over a hundred Sith fighter wings vs said ragtag band? yeh good luck with that.

[Beniboybling]

OK, your argument is based on two assumptions however:

 

 

1. The Kaggath format has an impact on the general state of the galaxy, I'm afraid it does not, the rules only have effect on the combatants. Notice 'for the sake of argument'. Their non existence is only to make the debate easier for us, it cannot be stretched to the extent your suggesting.
    
    
   
2. The underworld will view the Sith as 'the police'. If Traya only strikes at the Exchange they may (perhaps naively) believe that the Sith will leave them alone once their done with the Exchange. Or they may view them as 'the army', those guys whom you just want to stay out of their way because rallying against them = death.
   

 

However again, your arguments all well and good but useless if you don't apply it to the Kaggath. I don't see much benefits of G0-T0 having the support of the general underworld population, there's not much they can do.

 

So lets move on to the 'power vaccuum', the very fact that G0-T0's death would cause a battle for power implies that the underlings want that vaccuum and want to take advantage. Crimelords aren't going to shy away from a little bloodshed and turf war, that's how they get power and influence, that's how the underworld works. And the likes of Visquis, Luxa and Canderous are examples of this. Especially Visquis, who's to say he won't betray G0-T0 for Traya?

 

However we must also refrain from using the term 'support' - force and subjugate are more appropriate terms. Traya isn't suggesting an alliance, she's going to go in their take what she wants and force the crimelords to do what she wants, then discard them. And if she has assassins surrounding them at all times, they will do what she says. Is the Shadow Collective not a perfect example of the abilities of a Sith to dominate the underworld? The Hutts and the Black Sun were powerless to resist, and they did not stab them in the back.

[Beniboybling]

Well, I don't really know how to completely summarize the Malachor assualt, but it's definately a way G0-T0 could kill Traya. And it's pretty quick to put together, which means G0-T0 will have first strike. For pretty much all of Traya's attacks to pan out, she has to win/escape Malachor.

 

The first strike factor alone is a pretty powerful advantage for G0-T0.

This has been discussed at great length (with me most perversely, arguing against Traya!) and my conclusion was the attack would succeed but Traya would escape alive. The reason behind this was the interdiction tactic, the mini-fleet would escape but at the cost of surprise. Traya would get wise to the assault and flee. Unless of course you have a solution to this problem.

 

Nor is it a quick attack to set up, G0-T0 needs to outfit an entire batch of freighters with stealth tech, have the droids produced/shipped/gathered and have them equipped with advanced weaponry and stealth generators. Oh and they have to find Bao-Dur and convince him to help them.

 

But still, destroying Malachor V is if anything a major blow to her powerbase.

[Beniboybling]

I see you are assuming that if Traya decide to set up fortress at the Trayus Academy that means she has almost already lost, I disagree entirely, if she parked her fleet outside of Malachor's pull, no way is some ragtag band of Mercs going to break through that blockade, Nine Interdictors and the Ravager with over a hundred Sith fighter wings vs said ragtag band? yeh good luck with that.

Cloaking devices. And before you say Force sense, droids.

[BlazingShadow]

what is it with you people that think Traya ever needs or uses a fleet to do her bidding?

 

please remember G0-T0 is essentially a computer fooling several criminal sydnicates and his only real assets are thugs, underground economy, and HK-50s

 

please remember one of Kreia's signature moves is recruiting enemies, fallen and living, to do her bidding.

 

G0-T0's identity had always been in question by the mercenaries he employs, except the HK-50 droids. Kreia could very easily persuade some if not all of the non-droid forces to turn on G0-T0.

 

Remember that it is stated in TSL that G0-T0, while he does understand galactic politics and economics, the Force is still a greater mystery to him. The Force is Kreia's ally, and she is the bigger deceiver between the two.

 

Just throwing it out there.

[LadyKulvax]

Cloaking devices. And before you say Force sense, droids.

 

You're going to get cloaking devices working on all those freighters, no matter how small? this isn't NJO, we don't have StealthX's here there and everywhere, I would LOVE to see you guys explain how G0-T0 is getting that much Stealth tech working on that many ships and better yet how they're going to pilot, whilst cloacked, through the orbit of Malachor V itself without a single ship making as much as a noise, there is a chance sure, but highly unlikely.

 

And I would love an explanation as to how you're going to get that many cloaking devices on that many ships working without failure when at the times of the Old SIth Wars stealth tech as a whole was basically in it's prototype stage as explained in the New Essential Guide to Warfare.

[Warren-Stride]

However again, your arguments all well and good but useless if you don't apply it to the Kaggath. I don't see much benefits of G0-T0 having the support of the general underworld population, there's not much they can do.

 

I don't really understand how Traya forcing Exchange people to do stuff for her relates to this Kaggath either then. There's not much they can do.

 

So lets move on to the 'power vaccuum', the very fact that G0-T0's death would cause a battle for power implies that the underlings want that vaccuum and want to take advantage. Crimelords aren't going to shy away from a little bloodshed and turf war, that's how they get power and influence, that's how the underworld works. And the likes of Visquis, Luxa and Canderous are examples of this. Especially Visquis, who's to say he won't betray G0-T0 for Traya?

 

This is exactly my argument. I'm not saying people don't want G0-T0 out. I'm saying one lone person will act against him, they certainly won't team up to take him down. Luxa = one person. Canderous = one person. Visquis = one person. So Traya could get one person to try and off G0-T0, but these Exchange people (wait, who exactly are these Exchange people?) most certainly won't all be working together to get him out of power.

 

Is the Shadow Collective not a perfect example of the abilities of a Sith to dominate the underworld? The Hutts and the Black Sun were powerless to resist, and they did not stab them in the back.

 

Except by controlling Exchange people they will only be hurting their own organization. The Hutts and Black Sun had something to gain. If Maul had tried to gets Hutts to take down other Hutts, it would have gone differently.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[LadyKulvax]

This is exactly my argument. I'm not saying people don't want G0-T0 out. I'm saying one lone person will act against him, they certainly won't team up to take him down. Luxa = one person. Canderous = one person. Visquis = one person. So Traya could get one person to try and off G0-T0, but these Exchange people (wait, who exactly are these Exchange people?) most certainly won't all be working together to get him out of power.

 

Except you don't need multiple people, you need one person with a way to track down G0-T0's ship, hell it might not even need to be Exchange, it could be any one of the Bounty Hunters that have actually walked into his Yacht before.

[Beniboybling]

You're going to get cloaking devices working on all those freighters, no matter how small? this isn't NJO, we don't have StealthX's here there and everywhere, I would LOVE to see you guys explain how G0-T0 is getting that much Stealth tech working on that many ships and better yet how they're going to pilot, whilst cloacked, through the orbit of Malachor V itself without a single ship making as much as a noise, there is a chance sure, but highly unlikely.

 

And I would love an explanation as to how you're going to get that many cloaking devices on that many ships working without failure when at the times of the Old SIth Wars stealth tech as a whole was basically in it's prototype stage as explained in the New Essential Guide to Warfare.

Well I assume given that G0-T0 has his own stealthed yacht the technology could be replicated on vessels of similar size. Nor does stealth tech impede on your ability to pilot a ship unless your using hibridium, and especially if your a droid. And sound can't be heard in space but that's applying Earth science to Star Wars, but regardless the Sith have no means of hearing anyway. And if they did the noise would be disguised by the general ruckus of debris colliding with one another.

 

And they won't be piloting the ships down to the surface (although that is possible) as it was explained they could use transport pods disguised as debris to shoot the droids down to the ground, after scouting out the Trayus Academy and MSG via probe droids or simply Bao-Dur's schematics/knowledge.

[Warren-Stride]

Please remember one of Kreia's signature moves is recruiting enemies, fallen and living, to do her bidding.

 

.... Traya's not a necromancer ....

G0-T0's identity had always been in question by the mercenaries he employs, except the HK-50 droids. Kreia could very easily persuade some if not all of the non-droid forces to turn on G0-T0.

 

Since when? No one suspected a thing, he had a life-like hologram, people knew what he looked like.

The Force is Kreia's ally, and she is the bigger deceiver between the two.

 

G0-T0 is a droid who posed as a human crime lord. Traya is an old woman who posed as an.... old woman.

[LadyKulvax]

Well I assume given that G0-T0 has his own stealthed yacht the technology could be replicated on vessels of similar size.

 

His ship the Visionary was built around a prototype, hell it wasn't even his ship, it used to be owned by the Elaeor Propulsion corporation who were testing stealth tech, that yacht was literally built to make the device itself work, it's why it's looks nothing like other Starscape-classes.

 

Nor does stealth tech impede on your ability to pilot a ship unless your using hibridium, and especially if your a droid. And sound can't be heard in space but that's applying Earth science to Star Wars, but regardless the Sith have no means of hearing anyway. And if they did the noise would be disguised by the general ruckus of debris colliding with one another.

 

And they won't be piloting the ships down to the surface (although that is possible) as it was explained they could use transport pods disguised as debris to shoot the droids down to the ground, after scouting out the Trayus Academy and MSG via probe droids or simply Bao-Dur's schematics/knowledge.

 

So the plan here is to hope that enough probes manage to land in some of the extremely few safezones, not get destroyed on impact, manage to land on terrain near the MSG, manage to find their way to the MSG, surpass all the assassins and Lords, not have their Stealth tech disrupted by ion storms and god knows how many other problems? how many droids would that leave exactly?

 

EDIT: Also, why would G0-T0 blow up Malachor V this time, when he clearly attempted to stop Remote from activating it, for what reason I don't know, but he clearly didn't want the planet destroyed.

Edited March 14, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

His ship the Visionary was built around a prototype, hell it wasn't even his ship, it used to be owned by the Elaeor Propulsion corporation who were testing stealth tech, that yacht was literally built to make the device itself work, it's why it's looks nothing like other Starscape-classes.

 

So the plan here is to hope that enough probes manage to land in some of the extremely few safezones, not get destroyed on impact, manage to land on terrain near the MSG, manage to find their way to the MSG, surpass all the assassins and Lords, not have their Stealth tech disrupted by ion storms and god knows how many other problems? how many droids would that leave exactly?

 

EDIT: Also, why would G0-T0 blow up Malachor V this time, when he clearly attempted to stop Remote from activating it, for what reason I don't know, but he clearly didn't want the planet destroyed.

I'm not sure were your getting your facts from. But all I can find on G0-T0's yacht is that he had it personally commissioned by the company and outfitted by with a stygium cloaking device, I don't see why he couldn't have more stealthed vessels produced if this tech was available.

 

The probes probably won't be necessary, Bao-Dur will likely know of the devices location. They won't be landing, they'll by shooting down, you can't crash what's already technically crashing. Who said anything about ion storms? We have no evidence that they are ion storms, or that ion storms disrupt stealth tech. All other problems are solved by either stealth tech (assassins, storm beasts etc. can't see them) and their condition as a droid (immune to dark side and poisons, can't be sensed through the Force.) Let's also remember that the Sith aren't crawling around the planets surface, they'll all be inside the Trayus Academy and even if a few scouts have been sent out, they won't see anything.

 

So that would leave: enough the reactivate the MSG.

 

P.S. For the purpose of the Kaggath, G0-T0 is not restricted by his 'help the Republic' programming.

[LadyKulvax]

I'm not sure were your getting your facts from. But all I can find on G0-T0's yacht is that he had it personally commissioned by the company and outfitted by with a stygium cloaking device, I don't see why he couldn't have more stealthed vessels produced if this tech was available.

New Essential Guide to Warfare and the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide.

 

His ship is an extremely rare ship built for him, they didn't mass-produce that design, they are not a shipyard.

 

Stealth tech on that scale for vessels has only been massproduced twice: by the Sith Empire(Who basically gave up on it) and when the StealthX fighters became full fledged wings during the NJO.

 

I am extremely doubtful about your assumption and don't see how you think this could be mass produced in such a way by a droid who has no access to a significant shipyard.

 

Where is he going to do all this outfitting anyway? the Smuggler's moon? good luck hiding that from the assassins that are going to be stalking the moon, looking for any signs that lead to the Exchange Boss.

 

The probes probably won't be necessary, Bao-Dur will likely know of the devices location.

 

Bao-Dur is going to know the location of the MSG after Malachor V was crushed? we only know that he told the Remote to go and activate it, he didn't give him any directions as to where.

 

I would also like to know why you assume that Traya's going to leave a weapon that destroyed the whole planet once before totally unguarded.

Edited March 14, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

New Essential Guide to Warfare and the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide.

 

His ship is an extremely rare ship built for him, they didn't mass-produce that design, they are not a shipyard.

 

Stealth tech on that scale for vessels has only been massproduced twice: by the Sith Empire(Who basically gave up on it) and when the StealthX fighters became full fledged wings during the NJO.

 

I am extremely doubtful about your assumption and don't see how you think this could be mass produced in such a way by a droid who has no access to a significant shipyard.

 

Where is he going to do all this outfitting anyway? the Smuggler's moon? good luck hiding that from the assassins that are going to be stalking the moon, looking for any signs that lead to the Exchange Boss.

Hmmm, you make a strong point. However, if he's willing to take the risk, he may send the attack force in his personal yacht. He of course would not risk being aboard.

[LadyKulvax]

Hmmm, you make a strong point. However, if he's willing to take the risk, he may send the attack force in his personal yacht. He of course would not risk being aboard.

 

His ship is not very big, at least not big enough for him to store an entire host, leaving the sole advantage of Stealth to fulfil his entire victory conditions. it isn't even a ship it's a glorified pleasure yacht with hyper advanced technology for the day.

 

I'll cut to the chase, how do we know that the Sith won't see this fairly large ship drop out of hyperspace first? we don't. How is it going to get close enough to the planet to avoid any pull or damage from debris? the Ebon Hawk is a far smaller vessel and an expert pilot in Atton Rand had extreme trouble not just nose diving straight into the planet and getting destroyed, it was severely damaged entering Malachor's orbit.

 

So here's the big question: What is more likely, that these droids get past all these obstacles and blow Malachor V up (Traya might leave anyway and then it becomes a MUCH harder Kaggath for G0-T0 to win.)

 

Or the Sith manage to either capture a Hk unit that can reveal G0-T0's location, capture the Bith that cracked his code, get an exchange boss or bounty hunter to turn on him and reveal his location, the Sith find a way to track his ship from the factory on Telos IV, which of course they can simply take away from him, leaving him with Mercenaries and far less efficient droids and many ways for the Sith to disappear, trick him into thinking he's won, then through a coordinated and simultaneous strike, remove his Hk assets, turn his top agents on him with bribery or threats and then blockade the planet till they find his Yacht.

 

So many different ways for Traya to track him down and one not very convincing argument for how G0-T0 wins.

 

Don't know about you guys, but the victor is rather obvious, the droid simply doesn't have as many options.

Edited March 14, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

*fanfare*

Longest Kaggath Thread Ever!

[Beniboybling]

^^Had to be done.

His ship is not very big, at least not big enough for him to store an entire host, leaving the sole advantage of Stealth to fulfil his entire victory conditions. it isn't even a ship it's a glorified pleasure yacht with hyper advanced technology for the day.

Well, it is actually pretty big. It had a constant garrison of of around 50 droids and could likely fit more. Stealth is a big advantage and it is a ship, it can fly. Its also been upgraded with 6 dual turbolasers and minefield deployers. Not that it will have to use them as it is stealthed. The fact of the matter is, its enough to do the job.

 

The vessel won't be seen because it will be stealthed, granted it will be spotted by the interdiction fleet but will quickly stealth before they can react. It won't get pulled into the planet because of its small size, the Ebon Hawk approached the planet just find its only when it got down below that it crashed. All the Visionary has to do is get close enough to shoot down some pods. It won't enter the planet's orbit.

 

I'll leave other arguments for a G0-T0 victory to the G0-T0 supporters.

[Warren-Stride]

I'll leave other arguments for a G0-T0 victory to the G0-T0 supporters.

 

Just so I get this right, you want a scenario of how G0-T0 will win if (if) his assult on Malachor doesn't pan out?

 

And that involves Traya going to Korriban?

Edited March 14, 2013 by Warren-Stride