Does sniper have any counter now?

[MusicRider]

Here's a question for you. How does "an OP marksman sniper" hit you if he can't LOS you?

Now with the roll you might be able to get them out in the open. Cover spots tend to be near pillars after all.

[ChickenEveryday]

That's not me complaining about operatives, that's your interpretation. I said that sniper's cooldowns will not help them win a 1v1 against an operative, because operative is its counter class.

The stealth detection wont work, which has already been explained, as sneak + the roll will help operatives get into range before I can react, Evasion will only make rifle shot and overload shot miss, which I never see any operative use, of course now the evasion will cleanse acid blade/corrosive dart, but most operative dps will reapply this easily, shield probe will absorb a small amount of burst, but nothing substantial, the knockback and legshot can be cleansed, the roll is the only thing that can help, but if I use this and get distance between me and the operative, he can use sneak and gain increased movement speed and reach me in a few seconds, if he popped evasion while running at me, there would be nothing I could do to stop him reaching me. The ballistic shield and entrench are the only things that are affective against operatives, but when I pop them, they can stealth out of combat and just wait. There, counter to snipers.

[CharterMonkKent]

My favorite new counter to snipers is saber reflect. It will force snipers out of cover to stop their channels. That or they will eat their own ambush/SoS/follow through/etc.

 

This game will be more of a chess match if the current 2.0 changes go live.

[MusicRider]

Seemed like a complain initially to me and hence why you needed an escape mechanism. Strange you are contradicting yourself from your previous posts.

[NoTomorrow]

a good operative opening will beat lots of classes in a 1v1 away from the zerg fest, having to fear 1 adv class out of 8 doesn`t justify ur complaint

 

btw want to know another class that was MORE then fine and no changes we re needed? sins/shadows but that`s for another thread

 

Wait wait, last time i read marauder players opinion it was something like: "the only class that can stand in my way is a sniper". Then i asked some assassin if they fear some specific class, again i got a response (although not universal): "the only class that i fear is hybrid jug", other sin: "i fear only marauders".

 

MusicRider

With all due respect, you are a little bit biased against snipers because you play classes that under certain conditions can lose fighting against a sniper.

 

Sniper now is a complete class. By a complete i mean a class that works as developers intended it, and is balanced like developers intended it. The other class that can be considered complete is marauder. Why? Because we are both pure DPS classes, and developers didn't have to worry about balancing us in case we found a way to abuse tanking trees or healing trees.

Edited February 22, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[cycao]

btw want to know another class that was MORE then fine and no changes we re needed? sins/shadows but that`s for another thread

 

Trust me, most of the changes were nothing special and are considered nerfs.

[MusicRider]

MusicRider

With all due respect, you are a little bit biased against snipers because you play classes that under certain conditions can lose fighting against a sniper.

 

Sniper now is a complete class. By a complete i mean a class that works as developers intended it, and is balanced like developers intended it. The other class that can be considered complete is marauder. Why? Because we are both pure DPS classes, and developers didn't have to worry about balancing us in case we found a way to abuse tanking trees or healing trees.

Hardly NoTomorrow. You were the one advocating that you cant have everything. Well snipers pretty much get nearly everything. Ifind it funny that you consider sentinels balanced also now, is this biased because now you are at the same OP level maybe? Also this is not a NASA mission so it is not difficult to balance dual spec classes. From the top of my head put stances on them, you are in dps stance you cannot select skills from tier 2 and above from the healing/tank tree and vice versa. How tough this is?

 

EDIT: For the record, I was considering snipers as balanced and with very nice specific roles. Not so sure after 2.0.

Edited February 22, 2013 by MusicRider

[NoTomorrow]

Hardly NoTomorrow. You were the one advocating that you cant have everything. Well snipers pretty much get nearly everything. Ifind it funny that you consider sentinels balanced also now, is this biased because now you are at the same OP level maybe? Also this is not a NASA mission so it is not difficult to balance dual spec classes. From the top of my head put stances on them, you are in dps stance you cannot select skills from tier 2 and above from the healing/tank tree and vice versa. How tough this is?

 

Well frankly speaking i have this weird feeling that i have contributed to some of the changes. I was advocating repeatedly the move of ballistic dampers to tier 1. May be developers actuallly read this forum.

 

Look, lets return to the original topic: Do Snipers have counters? The answer is yes! Concealment is very much capable to beat sniepers regardless of their build and stealth detection stacks. I've already seen operatives describing how you can open with hidden strike ona sniper with his back to a corner with 30 stacks.

 

And if concealment can do that, i am pretty sure that we have other specs as well. My money is on deception. It was hardcountering us brutally since 1.4. I don't know if it is still true, but i never ever underestimated these folks.

 

Madness, although slower that those above, still is a very good counter to snipers.

 

Carnage, it needs some situational awareness and opportunism, but nothing impossible. (Rage only fears Marksmanship, but can handle lethality quite well).

 

Juggernaut = no idea here, but with the saber reflect, it cannot be that bad against snipers. They could be in a very decent spot against snipers with certain builds.

 

OK, what next PT Pyros: they finally god rid of their problems with getting rooted to death. Add in some favorable map layout, and together with hydraulic overrides, we are lookign at some very good fighting chance against snipers.

 

What is left? Mercs? Well, i don't know what is happening here. They will probably lose in a DPS race against us. But that's my assumption.

[MusicRider]

I agree that the changes will have to be seen in the overall context, ie the changes also to the other classes. And hence why I said I am not sure if snipers are still balanced, which imo they were in a perfect position atm and should be used as examples. My first impression is that with the changes they become OP, but it remains to be seen in the field as changes to other classes might make the snipers' changes necessary.

[MusicRider]

Also what the cd of the undirected egressed force speed?

[NogueiraA]

Sniper players ALWAYS says "we are a turret class".

 

Snipers players QQ "We need a escape mechanic".

 

What? You are a turret class and need a escape?

Your escape is entrench + ballistic shield + dodge + droid which absorb damage + instant roots + knocback with root + flashbang + 4sec stun + initerruptable casts + stun in Engineer spec + knockback in MM + 35m range.

 

Which class in this game has more tools than a sniper? In 2.0 the ONLY class who can counter snipers with no problem are stealthers... Now it is gone.

2.0 = snipers has no counter.

 

"just LOS", the worst argument ever.

[NoTomorrow]

I agree that the changes will have to be seen in the overall context, ie the changes also to the other classes. And hence why I said I am not sure if snipers are still balanced, which imo they were in a perfect position atm and should be used as examples. My first impression is that with the changes they become OP, but it remains to be seen in the field as changes to other classes might make the snipers' changes necessary.

 

Give it some time, you know how they say it in starcraft, some OP features of the game can lay in dormant for years simply because the metagame hasn't discovered them yet. We certainly do need some good amount of warzones played to judge anything.

 

NogueiraA

every class got something completely new: teleport, invincibility, damage reflect.

 

Agents got basically an ability which is basically designed to replace a broken one that agents had from the beta: roll to cover. We are only geting our original roll to cover fixed. We don't get any fancy stuff.

Edited February 22, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[islander]

Now with the roll you might be able to get them out in the open. Cover spots tend to be near pillars after all.

 

Honestly, as of right now I don't always use roll to cover. It depends on the warzone. Sometimes, rolling to cover causes more problems then it solves as it'll roll you to a location that puts you in a bad place. This happens in Alderaan a lot around the nodes on defense. Most of the time, I just crouch so I can be exactly where I need to be.

 

Now, going forward into 2.0, it still remains to be seen how it plays out. We ARE looking at week 1 of a PTS version that doesn't even have Makeb content in it yet.

 

I'd wait just a wee bit to see how it actually plays out after about 3 more version updates before I raged, that's all. It does seem like we may get some mobility improvement that COULD balance the scale a bit towards the sniper...but just like I'm not freaking out about assassins force walking with the huttball to the end zone, I'm just going to recommend some patience at this point, and see how things really play out among the players in each class who are truly skilled.

Edited February 22, 2013 by islander

[ErosGyne]

let me see!!!

bad players want BW to nerf sniper

IA\smuglers is until now is the best balance class in the game, not bad but not over either, and 1 escape abilitie that has a CD will turn this class overpowerd GOD MODE the next FOTM class.all the 30m gap closers in the game is for noobs

seriously, you guys need to grow up

[madtycoon]

Can't really test anything because no one has lvl 55 gear and the warzones are bolster bugged, but marks looks pretty strong.

 

I mean the spec gained armor pene. Can followthrough basically off of all attacks almost and followthrough hits weaker, but thats still pretty huge. I doubt MM will have any energy problems. The new snare after legshot is cleansable, but still really good. Ballistic shield stays in one place so you can just drop it and not worry about moving. The new roll escape also gives a 3 second entrench (not the biggest thing, but its basically like unremmitting on your escape, which is more than nice). Movement speed increase after you come out of entrench (probably mobility overkill tbh). The stealth detection stacking increase while in cover. Longer trauma off shattershot. And evasion removing dots. There's probably more little changes at the top of the tree I'm forgetting. Snipers made out pretty good compared to what i've seen looking at the other class trees. I mean the class had holes before, especially MM, but this might be too much.

 

The new changes to guard helps MM probably more than any other class/spec, because now you can CC the tank without worrying about it breaking because of guard and white heavy marks spec is probably the least viable in dealing damage to tanks, so any nerf to tanks helps marks snipers. MM also didn't really lose anything, but again its hard to know for sure because we can't test this stuff yet as intended anyways.

[islander]

Well frankly speaking i have this weird feeling that i have contributed to some of the changes. I was advocating repeatedly the move of ballistic dampers to tier 1. May be developers actuallly read this forum.

 

Look, lets return to the original topic: Do Snipers have counters? The answer is yes! Concealment is very much capable to beat sniepers regardless of their build and stealth detection stacks. I've already seen operatives describing how you can open with hidden strike ona sniper with his back to a corner with 30 stacks.

 

And if concealment can do that, i am pretty sure that we have other specs as well. My money is on deception. It was hardcountering us brutally since 1.4. I don't know if it is still true, but i never ever underestimated these folks.

.

 

There are certain (not all) scoundrels out there that can basically knock me down, and by the time I get up, literally 50-60% of my health is gone. Knock down, stun, it's 4-5 seconds before I can get up.

 

if that's not a hard counter, I don't know what is.

 

edit: Even better, this one scoundrel, after killing me a couple times, the next time I was ready for him. See it was Huttball and he was camping the endzone and no one else was going after him. What did I get for my effort after negating a portion of his first opening sequence?

He just dropped to stealth, and set me up for the opener a second time. haha. Man I was angry that time, I had my lunch handed to me hard.

Edited February 22, 2013 by islander

[AngelofCain]

There are certain (not all) scoundrels out there that can basically knock me down, and by the time I get up, literally 50-60% of my health is gone. Knock down, stun, it's 4-5 seconds before I can get up.

 

if that's not a hard counter, I don't know what is.

 

edit: Even better, this one scoundrel, after killing me a couple times, the next time I was ready for him. See it was Huttball and he was camping the endzone and no one else was going after him. What did I get for my effort after negating a portion of his first opening sequence?

He just dropped to stealth, and set me up for the opener a second time. haha. Man I was angry that time, I had my lunch handed to me hard.

 

it's fun right!!! btw... vanish gives I believe 15 levels of stealth and then you hit sneak and it's 34 in total.

[Smashbrother]

Anyone who thinks the stealth detection is somehow going to make snipers better for 1v1s is fooling themselves. We're one of the worst 1v1 classes right now, and still will be in 2.0.

 

Last time I checked, LoS isn't going away.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Smashbrother

[JP_Legatus]

As we've said many times LOS is a map issue not a class or talent issue. Snipers, having the advantage of positioning themselves properly before a fight, will always pick a position that is difficult to LOS. On top of that, only a sorc will be able to pull it off effectively, since other classes can't hit from 30m. It's not a good counter.

 

What I'm curious about is people saying deception and concealment can still gank snipers. I thought the stealth see talent snipers got made it impossible to sneak up on them. Is this not the case?

Edited February 22, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[stringcat]

Anyone who thinks the stealth detection is somehow going to make snipers better for 1v1s is fooling themselves. We're one of the worst 1v1 classes right now, and still will be in 2.0.

 

Last time I checked, LoS isn't going away.

 

Depends on spec. Engineering on live is currently one of the best for 1-v-1 in the game. It consistently loses to Op DPS, but otherwise is strong against most classes and gives you a pretty decent chance against Assassins, even if they open from steatlh.

 

The buffs to Lethality and MM are pretty huge. I think the changes will make them pretty good 1-v-1, but I think we're still absorbing all the changes. Killing pyros, for example, will go from "fairly easy" to **** GET THEM OFF now that they all have the anti-root/knockback ability. Sorcs may be able to heal through our damage. Etc. We'll see.

 

Engineering took a huge hit, alas.

[CharterMonkKent]

As we've said many times LOS is a map issue not a class or talent issue. Snipers, having the advantage of positioning themselves properly before a fight, will always pick a position that is difficult to LOS. On top of that, only a sorc will be able to pull it off effectively, since other classes can't hit from 30m. It's not a good counter.

 

What I'm curious about is people saying deception and concealment can still gank snipers. I thought the stealth see talent snipers got made it impossible to sneak up on them. Is this not the case?

 

Concealment will still be able to HS a sniper if spec'd correctly. Their stealth rating will be higher than the snipers detection.

 

As for the ganking comment. A good sniper won't be "ganked' by anyone, now or in 2.0. Lose a fight? Sure, of course. But shouldn't be ganked.

[CharterMonkKent]

Depends on spec. Engineering on live is currently one of the best for 1-v-1 in the game. It consistently loses to Op DPS, but otherwise is strong against most classes and gives you a pretty decent chance against Assassins, even if they open from steatlh.

 

The buffs to Lethality and MM are pretty huge. I think the changes will make them pretty good 1-v-1, but I think we're still absorbing all the changes. Killing pyros, for example, will go from "fairly easy" to **** GET THEM OFF now that they all have the anti-root/knockback ability. Sorcs may be able to heal through our damage. Etc. We'll see.

 

Engineering took a huge hit, alas.

 

how did engineering take a huge (or any kind of) hit? their dps has increased significantly, at least it did when I tested the spec last night. the reduced cooldown on SoS and the increased damage / energy regain from probe/cluster are significant.

 

also the landmines after coverroll make it difficult for melee to close the gap

[Smashbrother]

As we've said many times LOS is a map issue not a class or talent issue. Snipers, having the advantage of positioning themselves properly before a fight, will always pick a position that is difficult to LOS. On top of that, only a sorc will be able to pull it off effectively, since other classes can't hit from 30m. It's not a good counter.

 

What I'm curious about is people saying deception and concealment can still gank snipers. I thought the stealth see talent snipers got made it impossible to sneak up on them. Is this not the case?

 

You can't easily see stealth that is behind you.

[Smashbrother]

Depends on spec. Engineering on live is currently one of the best for 1-v-1 in the game. It consistently loses to Op DPS, but otherwise is strong against most classes and gives you a pretty decent chance against Assassins, even if they open from steatlh.

 

The buffs to Lethality and MM are pretty huge. I think the changes will make them pretty good 1-v-1, but I think we're still absorbing all the changes. Killing pyros, for example, will go from "fairly easy" to **** GET THEM OFF now that they all have the anti-root/knockback ability. Sorcs may be able to heal through our damage. Etc. We'll see.

 

Engineering took a huge hit, alas.

 

What nerfs to engineering are you talking about? I only see buffs. If you're talking about the shield gen changes, that's a across the board nerf to all, not engineering.

[NoTomorrow]

Depends on spec. Engineering on live is currently one of the best for 1-v-1 in the game. It consistently loses to Op DPS, but otherwise is strong against most classes and gives you a pretty decent chance against Assassins, even if they open from steatlh.

 

The buffs to Lethality and MM are pretty huge. I think the changes will make them pretty good 1-v-1, but I think we're still absorbing all the changes. Killing pyros, for example, will go from "fairly easy" to **** GET THEM OFF now that they all have the anti-root/knockback ability. Sorcs may be able to heal through our damage. Etc. We'll see.

 

Engineering took a huge hit, alas.

 

Lethality even in the new reincarnation has problem with classes with rapid maturing burst. A good pyro, carnage is capable of whiping the lethality sniper quite often.