Tanks in PvP

[Tragamite]

I have one of EVERY class in game. I have a Jugg and Guardian, PT and Tanksin. My Jugg is valor 82 my PT is valor 75. My Guardian is a brand new 50 at valor 51. My Jugg has had Centurion, champion, recruit, battlemaster, war hero and elite gear. My Guardian is in recruit mk2 gear. They are specced exactly the same and I rp them as twins.

 

However, of all my efforts, achievement and successes as a tank in PvP, I'd say there is really only one viable choice as a tank in PvP, sin/shadows. They are the only class in game that can do 300k dmg 200k defense 150k healing in a single match! Even wearing full tank gear they are more damaging then some DPS better healers then some healers. I don't necessarily feel this is absurd but to me draws concern to the 2 SHIELD DEPENDANT classes. In PvP PTs get no credit towards heals at all. The tend to have better versatility and survivabilty then warrior yet lack cc immunity more easily obtained in the warrior.

 

However, my biggest issue with tanks and taking is shielding and self heals.

 

elds offer a CHANCE to block incoming attacks of melee and tech types. Not force not internal not bleeds not elemental. So a chance to block 2 types of the damage that is dealt in PvP. Guard prevents damage to the guarded redirecting 50% damage taken to the tank. Gear may offer a slight boost to damage while guarding. No mitigation for the tank and that 50% they receive. I have often had DPStanks guard me because of a tanks natural mitigation. Shields chance turns to absorption, further mitigation effectiveness to reduce the amount of damage actually taken by those 2 types of attacks.

 

PTs have one self heal that is really only effective if they have their bubble shield up. Warriors have a self heal that reduces threat, while not a huge issue in PvP it is a factor to the tank in PvE. The Assassin has a steady flow of self heals force regen and damaging abilities that all work together to give it survivabilty versatility and can easily obtain a cc block for capability as well as having stealth and force speed.

 

Honestly I feel that the tanksin is where it needs to be to be an effective PvE tank.

 

While boosting the effectiveness of the shield and guard functions would only increase the over all effectiveness of the tanksin the thing I feel needs to happen to the two other tank types is some type of health transfer. One ability each that drains the life of its target and heals the tank in return. This will give them both more versatility, healing and survivability in PvP as well as PvE.

 

Any thoughts?

[NoTomorrow]

Ill tell you how you solve this problem: you bring tank sin down to the level of other two tanks. Problem solved.

Same as merc healers problem, you bring down to his level the scoundrel healer.

Edited February 16, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[Tragamite]

Ill tell you how you solve this problem: you bring tank sin down to the level of other two tanks. Problem solved.

Same as merc healers problem, you bring down to his level the scoundrel healer.

 

Not solved. Tanksin would be no match to a shield tank PvE wise without their self heals they don't have the mitigation of heavy armor and would be to much of a drain on the healers.

 

Your healer analysis I also question as I find my merc and scoundrel healer comparable both having unique qualities to aid them yet neither noticeably dominating of the other sorry.

[JackNader]

are you on crack?

 

Jug hybrid tank is the best tank in the game.. PERIOD! It baffles me that you think they are weaker than a sin tank. They have ****loads better mitigation. They have defensive cooldowns coming out their ears. Intercede heals. They have over a 10k self heal and a 2.5k absorb every 9 seconds. They also have a defensive cooldown that can eat a whole ravage and can also be cast while stunned. Like holy **** man.

 

2nd best is the sin tank. The gap between the sin tank and the jug is actually quite large. Sin tanks used to be the best but Bioware cut their healing in half and nerfed the **** out of their damage reduction.

 

Pt tanks are hands down the worst pvp tanks.

Edited February 16, 2013 by JackNader

[Tragamite]

are you on crack?

 

Jug hybrid tank is the best tank in the game.. PERIOD!

2nd best is the sin tank. The gap between the sin tank and the jug is actually quite large.

Pt tanks are hands down the worst pvp tanks.

 

You are talking about jugg DPS hybrid in tank stance and DPS gear. They are not the best tank they are an effective tank in PvP dealing 300-600k and 100k (usually) protection. They have maybe 50k heals. An assassin DPS hybrid in tank stance and DPS gear can match this on a bad day.

 

But you are correct the PT is the worst PvP tank hybrid or not.

[Rynis]

I rarely come close to 300k damage in full tank gear (not talking about dps gear/tank spec because they aren't tanks) even in the longest games.

 

When I go tank on my assassin I don't even spec into lightning heals because there are better mitigation specs for pvp. Maybe before the heal nerf I could get 100k healing but not anymore.

 

Every rated team would take a jugg over assassin main tank. Like said PTs are kinda meh which is unfortunate.

 

 

Edit: IMO PT/Vanguards need something changed pvp wise but the other tanks are fine.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Rynis

[Rynis]

You are talking about jugg DPS hybrid in tank stance and DPS gear.

 

Most jug/guard tanks run a hybrid of some sort with full tank gear.

[Khalhazar]

They have over a 10k self heal and a 2.5k absorb every 9 seconds.

 

You are overstating the absorb from sonic/blade barrier. It's decent, but nowhere near 2.5k. It's more like 850. It scales off bonus healing with a very small multiplier. I've both done the math and tested it. Please get your facts straight before calling 18/23 juggs OP. Thanks. :-)

 

Most jug/guard tanks run a hybrid of some sort with full tank gear.

 

This isn't my experience on BC. Most times you see soresu here, you're seeing someone in DPS gear. There are maybe half a dozen players I know who run tank gear. It's quite sad.

[Tragamite]

 

 

Most jug/guard tanks run a hybrid of some sort with full tank gear.

 

Agreed most jugg guard TANKS run something like 25/16/0 and run 2 piece sets bonuses but that is different then a 15/20/6 in DPS 4 piece bonus min/maxed for smash in Soresu form.

 

A hybrid TANK usually pulls 150k dmg 200+k protection and 50k heals. Oh and big hit might get 2.5k medal.

[Altheran]

I rarely come close to 300k damage in full tank gear (not talking about dps gear/tank spec because they aren't tanks) even in the longest games.

 

Yeah, it's very rare. And even when it happens, it's when you have in your guard an over-competent healer, which allow you and him to facetank 4-6 opponents. This kind of guys will make you survive whatever the tank your are. And then damage and heal numbers are just fluff numbers as they're just the result that you didn't die and kept attacking and so increasing your end stats.

If a Tank Shadow succeed to put such high damage numbers, it will not be because of its output, but because a good part of your attacks (almost 1/3) are AoE with big radius, and people agglomerate on you and your guard (few will abandon fighting in a 6vs2 even if the two are unkillable).

[UberDuberSoldat]

Tank Jug > Tank Sin for in combat healer protection and CC

 

Tank Sin > Tank Jug for Node Guarding and 1v1

 

Tank PT > Tank Sin > Tank Jug for sucking ***

[Yelloweyedemon]

Last time i checked, meds didn't win matches.

[JackNader]

My absorb is 2k and I wear full dps. I asked my guildie what his absorb is according to Mox parser and he replied 2.5k. Either way... the jug tank is so much more tanky and effective, its ridiculous.

 

The tankiest jug spec has both deafening defense and sonic barrier. Wearing DPS gear, you will absolutely crush every single class in this game. The only classes that stand a chance are the ones that can root and kite you but it takes them so long to kill you it's pointless. Also you can easily get your 50k self heals in full dps gear. The most I can ever recall doing was 130k.

Edited February 17, 2013 by JackNader

[Khalhazar]

I just ran to Ilum and tested with the latest MOX vs. an elite Terentatek Combat Specimen. Results:

 

* In my half EWH, rest WH tank set (link in sig): 788 absorbed on average per sonic barrier.

 

* In my WH (w/ BH focus) DPS set: 990 absorbed on average.

 

SB is _great_ given that we can use it every 9 seconds. But it's nowhere near a 2500 absorb per cast. Perhaps the 2500 you saw was 2 or 3 applications combined in MOX, the way MOX tends to combine?

[Polymerize]

Forget full Jugg tank, unless it is Huttball.

 

Spec - 2/8/31 with stance dancing. High skill cap. Do not try if you're not the best of players.

[skymonster]

Forget full Jugg tank, unless it is Huttball.

 

Spec - 2/8/31 with stance dancing. High skill cap. Do not try if you're not the best of players.

 

as a full tank jugg let me assure you with a decent team to back me up i am quite lethal

[Polymerize]

as a full tank jugg let me assure you with a decent team to back me up i am quite lethal

 

In RATEDS, sure, you're going to want one full Jugg I agree with that.

 

I would also bring along the spec that I mentioned with a player who is competent at stance dancing, versus bringing along a Jugg who is the same spec who does not stance dance.

 

Then again, like I said, it requires an incredibly high skill cap to be GREAT at it. No surprise that I never see anyone doing it.

[Enexemander]

Forget full Jugg tank, unless it is Huttball.

 

Spec - 2/8/31 with stance dancing. High skill cap. Do not try if you're not the best of players.

 

With Dps or Tank gear?

 

I mean, in comparison to a true Hybrid Jugg Tank you're going to get obliterated either way when actually trying to tank, but I'm curious.

[Polymerize]

With Dps or Tank gear?

 

I mean, in comparison to a true Hybrid Jugg Tank you're going to get obliterated either way when actually trying to tank, but I'm curious.

 

Sorry I should be more transparent.

 

It would be with DPS-gear. You would not want to be MAIN TANK. You will be an exceptionally good off-tank.

 

If you are good, try stance dancing with the spec I mentioned. It is very effective because you can switch stances through just a GCD as a Juggernaut/Guardian. Switching stances is almost impossible for Assassins and it is more situational for PT's.

 

Stance dancing requires high situational awareness. You have to be able to analyze the situation and determine whether the extra dps you'll get from staying DPS Stance is more important than switching to GUARD stance for teammates. Harder than you may think

Edited February 17, 2013 by Polymerize

[JackNader]

I just ran to Ilum and tested with the latest MOX vs. an elite Terentatek Combat Specimen. Results:

 

* In my half EWH, rest WH tank set (link in sig): 788 absorbed on average per sonic barrier.

 

* In my WH (w/ BH focus) DPS set: 990 absorbed on average.

 

SB is _great_ given that we can use it every 9 seconds. But it's nowhere near a 2500 absorb per cast. Perhaps the 2500 you saw was 2 or 3 applications combined in MOX, the way MOX tends to combine?

 

get some gear bro.

[Enexemander]

Yeah, but the thing is that having an actual main tank is an incredible rarity in a pug game.

 

I can bring my jugg tank in pugs and completely change the sway of battle by actually being a main tank. Swapping guard around, focus framing the high dps and taunting religiously, keeping intervene on cooldown, keeping everyone slowed and peeling continually off the healer(s).

 

When Time to Kill slows down considerably for your side, but is the same as regular for their side, you're going to win A LOT of games. I think many of the complaints people have about the game would dissipate if people played more tanks as a tank. All the sudden those smashes aren't hitting for 6k anymore. All the sudden that healer doesn't have to try and kite the entire match and can heal through being focused. All the sudden their team moves like 70 year old men and your team is sprinting up the field.

 

Dps is nice, and any tanking abilities used help. But man, there's really something to be said for having such a huge contribution to your team that success hinges in a large part in how you play.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Enexemander

[Polymerize]

Yeah, but the thing is that having an actual main tank is an incredible rarity in a pug game.

 

I can bring my jugg tank in pugs and completely change the sway of battle by actually being a main tank. Swapping guard around, focus framing the high dps and taunting religiously, keeping intervene on cooldown, keeping everyone slowed and peeling continually off the healer(s).

 

When Time to Kill slows down considerably for your side, but is the same as regular for their side, you're going to win A LOT of games. I think many of the complaints people have about the game would dissipate if people played more tanks as a tank. All the sudden those smashes aren't hitting for 6k anymore. All the sudden that healer doesn't have to try and kite the entire match and can heal through being focused. All the sudden their team moves like 70 year old men and your team is sprinting up the field.

 

Dps is nice, and any tanking abilities used help. But man, there's really something to be said for having such a huge contribution to your team that success hinges in a large part in how you play.

 

I certainly do not judge player's by the stats they put up but I need further information for analysis, what is the average amount of Protection you do? (And an additional average for Rated matches.)

[volander]

Sonic Barier absorb 2,5K damage? Well, even if that... no one will be with you to fight. For example Ancient Hypergate. You hold the spot. Shadow comes and makes the Mind Maze.

You Unleashes.

He Force Сloack and re Mind Maze

All done. spot was taken without fight.

 

Shadow has many way to achive your goal. Jugg is just a walk and taunt every moving object while normal Sorc do more protection then any jugg or even PT.

 

Stance dancing? its a joke. Every norm jugg turn on suresu then him focused more when two people. Its not a huge deal.

[Polymerize]

Sonic Barier absorb 2,5K damage? Well, even if that... no one will be with you to fight. For example Ancient Hypergate. You hold the spot. Shadow comes and makes the Mind Maze.

You Unleashes.

He Force Сloack and re Mind Maze

All done. spot was taken without fight.

 

Shadow has many way to achive your goal. Jugg is just a walk and taunt every moving object while normal Sorc do more protection then any jugg or even PT.

 

Stance dancing? its a joke. Every norm jugg turn on suresu then him focused more when two people. Its not a huge deal.

 

 

 

Haha, ok.

[Khalhazar]

get some gear bro.

 

Please post the gear that you or your friend use to get 2.5k absorbed from Sonic Barrier. It will suffice to give your bonus force healing stat. Since SB scales 1-1 with force healing, it shouldn't be hard to calculate the gear you need to reach 2.5k absorbed: over 2000 bonus healing (without PvE tank 4pc.)

 

Now, it's possible that there's some mechanics here I don't know about. I'd buy that the warzone buff you pick up inflates SB, and I'd buy that a fully power-optimized EWH dps set will absorb over 1k without pve 4pc or WZ buff.

 

So, in the interest of fixing an error in our understanding of SB... care to post your gear? If there's something going on that the theory doesn't currently cover, I'd love to know about it. A 2.5k absorb would be wonderful, and would make a better case for _not_ using tank gear in WZs.