Nothing much changes in 3000 years?

[IsolatedPurity]

I agree, SWTOR vehicles and things look way to similar to the civil war era.

[Daraco]

I agree, SWTOR vehicles and things look way to similar to the civil war era.

 

Just ask yourself this "Would you want to play a STARWARS game that doesn't resemble STARWARS, be a jedi before the lightsaber was invented, go to planets before they were settled?"

 

when it comes down to it, you want a universe that evolves as rapidly as real life does you create a COMPLETELY different universe all together and it loses what makes it starwars

[LizardSF]

Just ask yourself this "Would you want to play a STARWARS game that doesn't resemble STARWARS, be a jedi before the lightsaber was invented, go to planets before they were settled?"

 

when it comes down to it, you want a universe that evolves as rapidly as real life does you create a COMPLETELY different universe all together and it loses what makes it starwars

 

Would *I* play this? Play a jedi with an electrically charge physical sword, visit Coruscant when it was an industrial world with some wilderness left, visit the Kashykk when the very first human scouts had just set up a base and no one had any idea how to deal with Wookies?

 

Damn skippy I would.

 

Would enough people do this to make the game viable given the cost?

 

Absolutely not.

 

As I keep saying, there's room for a middle ground between "a different setting which only happens to be called 'Star Wars'" and "the universe of the movies with a handful of renames". I mean, the fact Imperials keep talking in chat about fighting the Rebels -- when they MEAN the Republic, not the various rebellions on Imperial worlds -- is pretty telling in terms of how well, or not, the idea that this is 3000 years in the past has been conveyed. In that vast middle ground, Bioware has staked out an area very close to one side of the scale... I'd like to encourage them to shift it further away over time.

 

Not every conversation on the Internet needs to be a situation where people pick a single extreme position and cling to it mindlessly, incapable of understanding subtlety, conflicting goals where both goals are still desirable, and acknowledging the validity of counterarguments while still disputing their strength. It's constantly frustrating that no matter how much I qualify my positions, provide example, list exemptions, raise and respond to likely counterpoints, etc, posters still can't get beyond trying to distill everything to a bumper sticker extremist point of view and tne responding with a bumper sticker of their own. This isn't Twitter. This isn't in-game chat where you're trying to type and fight at the same time. There's room to actually express complete thoughts. People should take advantage of it.

 

(See earlier in this post. See how I acknowledge that while *I* would enjoy something, I *also* know many people would not, and I understand the game isn't being made for me and me alone? I am capable of expressing my preferences in a way that doesn't ignore or discount everyone else's, or the commercial realities of the product. It is possible to want something but understand why you're not likely to get it. It is also possible to recognize that Bioware does pay attention to these threads, even if they don't comment on them, and that knowing there are some customers who would like more "difference" might impel them to add some over time, whereas if they thought no one wanted it, they would add none. Again, there's a big gray area where they can offer something to players like me, without alienating and driving off the majority.)

[gunnercd]

Seriously? Real Life != fiction.

[LizardSF]

Seriously? Real Life != fiction.

 

Thank you for your lucid, detailed, and well thought out reply. The effort you've expended in addressing, and then countering, specific points is quite impressive, as is your knowledge of world building and the problems of verisimilitude, immersion, and suspension of disbelief and their role in how people enjoy, or do not enjoy, various types of fictional works. If you don't already have a doctorate in an appropriate area of the liberal arts, I strongly encourage you to pursue one, given your evident skill in this area.

[Daraco]

Would *I* play this? Play a jedi with an electrically charge physical sword, visit Coruscant when it was an industrial world with some wilderness left, visit the Kashykk when the very first human scouts had just set up a base and no one had any idea how to deal with Wookies?

 

Damn skippy I would.

 

Would enough people do this to make the game viable given the cost?

 

Absolutely not.

 

As I keep saying, there's room for a middle ground between "a different setting which only happens to be called 'Star Wars'" and "the universe of the movies with a handful of renames". I mean, the fact Imperials keep talking in chat about fighting the Rebels -- when they MEAN the Republic, not the various rebellions on Imperial worlds -- is pretty telling in terms of how well, or not, the idea that this is 3000 years in the past has been conveyed. In that vast middle ground, Bioware has staked out an area very close to one side of the scale... I'd like to encourage them to shift it further away over time.

 

Not every conversation on the Internet needs to be a situation where people pick a single extreme position and cling to it mindlessly, incapable of understanding subtlety, conflicting goals where both goals are still desirable, and acknowledging the validity of counterarguments while still disputing their strength. It's constantly frustrating that no matter how much I qualify my positions, provide example, list exemptions, raise and respond to likely counterpoints, etc, posters still can't get beyond trying to distill everything to a bumper sticker extremist point of view and tne responding with a bumper sticker of their own. This isn't Twitter. This isn't in-game chat where you're trying to type and fight at the same time. There's room to actually express complete thoughts. People should take advantage of it.

 

(See earlier in this post. See how I acknowledge that while *I* would enjoy something, I *also* know many people would not, and I understand the game isn't being made for me and me alone? I am capable of expressing my preferences in a way that doesn't ignore or discount everyone else's, or the commercial realities of the product. It is possible to want something but understand why you're not likely to get it. It is also possible to recognize that Bioware does pay attention to these threads, even if they don't comment on them, and that knowing there are some customers who would like more "difference" might impel them to add some over time, whereas if they thought no one wanted it, they would add none. Again, there's a big gray area where they can offer something to players like me, without alienating and driving off the majority.)

 

What are you talking about?

 

And i offer you and example of how important name brand is and how trivial things can cause an uproar with brand name. Final Fantasy XI and final fantasy XIV, you realize these two game cause HUGE back lash over the facts these were not "SINGLE PLAYER" final fantasy rpgs? there were petitions to get them to remove the "Final Fantasy" label from them.

 

you may think there is middle ground and for you there is but for fanboys there is no such thing and they are the majority for now.

 

I don't see what your asking for? An appreciable difference of 3000 years in a universe that has existed 40 years? what exactly should be different not just what but how?? Ill admit i'm not creative enough to see how our society would be different in 3000 years

Edited December 29, 2011 by Daraco

[LizardSF]

What are you talking about?

 

Apparently, nothing I can communicate clearly to you.

 

Whether that's a fault in my writing or your reading, I leave to the judgment of others.

[Phinion]

If they made all the actual changes many people would wonder where the Star Wars went in the game. Might be unrecognizable to many people.

 

With that said I do hope our own human race does change in the next 3000years. Hate to see this world the same way it is now.

[ClayPeopleCry]

If they went for realism the world would be so drastically different it would alienate the people who liked the Star Wars movies.

[Bobbyrab]

It is indeed painfully obvious the idea is to attract original trilogy fans (rebels and Imperials), prequel trilogy fans (double bladed lightsabers, more colorful settings and appearances) and Clone Wars show fans (look of the game).

 

Not that I blame them: after the change that EA sunk into this little enterprise, you can bet they'll go to any length to ensure a strong return and go after any and all fans. Not to mention having to pay the Lucas folks...

 

It would be quite interesting to see a post-ROTJ MMO...I think I might have preferred that...but the EU is unfortunately quite full of lore already...but I suppose they could slip an MMO in there. You'd be able to combine the best of TOR and Galaxies, as well as throw the Yuuzhan Vong in there at some point as an expansion...

[Wickedcarny]

I dont think anyone wants "realism" in this situation, nor is anyone expecting it from the SW universe.

 

The argument is whether or not the game feels like it is 3000 years ago compared to 30-100 years ago. Also whether or not BW did a proper job distuingishing it from EpI-III and IV-VI art and cultural style.

 

The game NEEDS to be and feel like Star Wars, but I also feel like it NEEDS something more to seperate itself. Obviously you have to keep fanboys happy and keep the general public interested in anyway possible, but taking extra steps or a risky step to truley make things great and seperate it from the movies is not a bad thing.

 

To think that barely anything would change after 3000 years, even with several wars is kind of ridiculous. Some things would be the same, others drastically different.

 

The middle ground is the most desirable. Keeping just enough grounded in traditional Star Wars to make it feel familiar but changing/adding enough to make it feel fresh and fun.

 

I am really enjoying this game, but really I am disapointed with the enviroments. I feel like they are all seen and done before from all previous SW games. Which yea, it is set in the same universe/areas but TOR has the advantage of being set so far in the past, they can make the same areas seem new.

 

Most of the game just feels like a re-hash of everything we have seen before slapped onto a MMO frame.

 

By no means did the developers do a bad job, and it must have taken an insane amount of creativity and effort to complete, just from a outside standpoint I was hoping for something mroe varied. Then again i felt the same way when KOTOR came out.

[Viera]

People really shouldn't use the "Dark Ages" as an example.

It was both very localized; China, India, the Muslim empires and even the Eastern Roman Empire never suffered from it; and not terribly accurate, theoretical knowledge and advancement might have suffered, but if you look a bit deeper there's in fact a vast amount of practical knowledge and advancement. And perhaps more importantly a far wider permeation of them through society (remember that many of the Greek and Roman inventions were quite rare to actually see in effect, while for example wind-and watermills were ubiquitous during the Middle Ages)

 

You're missing one very important thing that I have already touched on. Star Wars had its own Dark Age. Seriously, it did. Look up the "Dark Age of the Republic" or look back for my original post on the subject. The Republic was we know it in the prequel trilogy had only existed for a thousand years. Massive amount of population was lost, as were entire worlds, and the Sith pretty much destroyed the republic. It got to the point that the republic could no longer maintain the holonet off core worlds.

 

As for Tattooine that other people have argued. Tattooine did used to have a BioSphere, until the Infinite Empire glassed the entire planet basically. They bombed it from orbit until nothing but sand remained.

 

 

Following the battle, the Ruusan Reformation was enacted by Chancellor Tarsus Valorum. It returned power to the Senate, placed the Jedi under the authority of the Republic government, and disbanded the vast majority of its remaining military.

 

At long last, with war after war, peace and prosperity came to the Republic. Yet with it came a dangerous complacency. Vast armies and navies were downscaled, and the Republic came to rely on the Jedi more and more for the maintenance of civility. Despite a few isolated flash points—like the Stark Hyperspace War and the Battle of Naboo—full-scale military conflict remained a distant memory.

[Takahironori]

So... nothing much changes in 3000 years?

 

ancient egypt's first pharaoh ruled around 3,000 BCE. the last (cleopatra vii) died around 30 bce. not much changed in those 3,000 years.

 

so what's your point op?

 

but seriously, we are currently living in a period of very fast change. most of human history is not like this.

 

i suppose most of galactic (future) history is not like this either.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Takahironori

[GCRust]

To be fair: when every century a Giant, Galactic Evil engulfs the entire known galaxy in a decades long struggle for survival, it's not surprising technology, fashion, etc have basically stagnated and advancement comes in fits and starts, mainly as giant, all powerful Super Weapons of devastating ability.

 

I mean, at this point, most of these worlds have to be completely tapped of expendable resources. Indeed, it's possible most worlds are similar to Tatooine or Hutta/Nar Shada. They're either desert rocks long since expended of anything worthwhile, or environmental cesspools that build cities vertically in a attempt to escape the poisoned and ruined surface. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if most of the "garden" worlds we see are just aesthetically designed that way, and not actually capable of supporting large eco-systems.

 

...

 

Suddenly the blockade of Naboo leading to worldwide devastation in a matter of weeks makes sense.

 

 

EDIT: But in all seriousness, I think Bioware's struck a excellent balance between the Familiar and the Unique. Droid designs are obviously more primitive, and if the Starships leave me wanting, the Holorecords of the Great Hyperspace War show me ships that are very much unique in the Star Wars universe.

Edited December 29, 2011 by GCRust

[fallenjedi]

I have always thought that the stagnation was due to the pervasive nature of the Force. The mere presence of it has affected the entirety of the galaxy. It has brought about the Sith and the Jedi who both have tried to shape the fate of the galaxy in their own images.

 

The many galactic wars have all been somehow connected to Force users (both Sith and Jedi), with the galaxy being nothing more than a social experiment gone awry.

 

discuss....

[BZ-SixTwo]

I didn't read through everything so bare with me if I repeat somethings anyone else said.

 

Between KOTOR and TOR is a couple hundred years I think if I'm not mistaken, Now I'm going off of old memories of the loading screens but in KOTOR I think it stated that the hyperspace was a relatively new Tech and the Lanes are also new and still in the process of being charted (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) So if that's right, that's one thing that has seem to of changed..

 

BUT THAT BEING SAID, I think a lot of this game seems to be just throwing somethings in JUST so it can be balanced and seem more like the movies starwars, For instance anyone ever notice the Sith Empire is using the Imperial Logo which ironicaly is the Republic logo in the Prequel movies? While the Republic is practically using the Rebel's logo, On top of that all of the Sith Officers are dressed like Imperial era officers and the Sith Troopers as well as Republic Commando's look very clone warish.. Now this can all either be explained just because they needed designs and borrowed from the movies for obvious reasons OR the Star Wars universe is stuck in some kind of horrible overlapping loop. Just my 2 cents I would just try not to think about it and realize that StarWars is a space opera not a SciFi.

[GCRust]

Armor and Uniform designs don't really bug me that much. After all, a modern body armor doesn't look that different from their middle age counterparts.

 

And, not to take a cheap shot but doing it anyway, given the relative LACK of protection armor provided in the Clone Wars/Original Trilogy...

Edited December 29, 2011 by GCRust

[kishe]

Considering the lore mentions few beings living up to be like hundreds of years old, i think its safe to say time has different meaning in Star wars universe than in real life

[Intarabus]

This part yeah.

 

I think it would have been cool to have Smugglers and BH start in a 3rd neutral faction. and be able to choose which side they join. Heck maybe even have the option of switching sides?

 

Ok My SWG is showing Smugglers could change factions.

 

Still I really liked the BH storyline as much as i tried in Beta anyway and wish i could play one as Republic.

 

That was a flaw of the both KOTOR-Games (as good as they are) already. As a Jedi, you seemingly have also in TOR a lot of "neutral" options, but no benefit of it (like some extra-cool special Jedi Order or stuff like taht).

[Intarabus]

Basically, I can live with the similarities. But what I find a bit disappointing is, that Coruscant looks exactly the same as in the prequel movies. At least they could have painted it gray

In story terms, it is fresh enough for me. For example, I like that Tython is crammed with Jedi masters, of which some appear to me like nutty professors with their simple serving tasks.

[Macheath]

In a space opera, or space fantasy, technology only changes when it serves the plot.

 

-Macheath.

[Patmage]

There have been anatomically modern humans for almost 200,000 years now. Yet if you look at technological advancements they generally come in spurts. A 3,000 year stagnation isn't all that much. Generally large leaps forward require equally large breakthroughs.

 

Another factor to consider is that there is a best way of doing things. And reaching it generally takes exponentially as much investment for decreasing returns. While they don't seem to follow all our rules of physics, if we assume they still have a rule set then there must be a peak. It might be simply that they are being limited by physics itself in advancements. You can only make a wheel so round.

 

The thing that should be different though are things bound solely by personal preference. Things like clothing. It is far more unlikely that the same fashion would persist as long as a space craft that is already capable enough. Though fashion can go in cycles..

[kaylarenegarner]

No offense or anything but if they made it like that 3000 years prior then we would all be wearing rags and there probably wasnt even a dark or light side . and nobody would play the damn game.

[TalkingDinosaur]

In 3000 years Alderaan will go from lush green forests to an asteroid field being orbited by a moon...wait that's no moon.

[Imaliongrr]

I always took it as progress moving forward in real life make it hard for progress in canon to be worse.

 

I mean it's kinda hard to make the world in game look more primitive whenever they are trying to make the world look new. Bioware had to make new tech and theme's while at the same time keeping it in the Star Wars universe.

 

To back this up, I mean in 4,5, and 6 the tech seemed way less advanced then in 1,2, and 3 even though the former is in the future.

 

It all comes down to the fact they had to resort to the same tech.