A Lesson on Human Nature: Open-world PvP on Illum

[Nydus]

Selective quoting, my favorite! It's ok to say you don't agree with me on anything, you don't have misquote me.

 

It isn't a misquote and it is a rather effective way to illustrate the degree to which I disagree with your entire thread.

 

Speaking of disagreement, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and mine simply happens to be that this event fell short because the developers can't seem to get some very fundamental things about they way their customers react to these poorly made events. You would think this is the world's first MMO and they have nothing to go on.

 

Yes, you are entitled to this opinion. Having played a few MMOs, I'm not sure what BioWare is doing worse than most developers.

 

As for giving people more choices, while generally it is a good thing, wasting even five minutes (which coincidentally appears to be how long they spent on thinking this up) on such a uninspired event, when the game is crawling with bugs that have existed since launch and only pile up with every patch, is anything but a good choice.

 

Is it? Firstly, I've never really experienced the majority of *bugs* people refer to. The ones that penetrated my consciousness were fixed rather quickly, either in a patch or in response to a ticket. Secondly, I again have to call you out on your opinion of this event. Reiteration: your opinion of it is not unanimously shared by the community.

 

P.S. Not to be a grammar-nazi but "replete" is almost always used to refer to food, and while these forums are supposed to provide "food for thought" I don't think that's what you meant.

 

Replete. Adjective. To be filled or well-supplied with something. Synonyms. full - fraught - saturate.

 

A friendly warning not to call me on my wordage and verbiage; while my writing style is unique and excessive at times, my spelling, grammar, typography, and punctuation usage -- including that semi-colon -- are quite purposefully placed. The vast majority of people who go down this route do not come out of the conversation either appearing, or feeling, particularly learned.

 

An adult response to the above is an apology; this is not expected but I have some tips you may wish to follow prior to calling someone out on spelling or grammar. If you wish me to relate them, I will happily do so. I follow them myself and they prevent me from making the mistake you just made.

 

- Arcada

Edited February 14, 2013 by Nydus

[Shwarzchild]

I also want to point out that while your passion about the subject should be applauded, your argument is poorly laid out. Not once did you define what human nature is as you see it. You're trying to bolster your argument by bringing into the picture the differences between a PvE and PvP player in that one is objective based and the next is player based. And then you use that argument of human nature as to why the development team should change course. That is fundamentally flawed as it relates to your undefined version of human nature simply because it doesn't apply to the situation presented or what the development team needs to do in order to ensure continual growth of their product. My question to you is not about human nature but about the nature of PvP: What do you define as PvP? It seems like you've pigeon holed yourself into the idea that there is only one form of PvP. In my mind I think finding a way to include objectives into the PvP world that do not lead to what Illum was before is a very good cause, and absolutely possible.

 

Also, your saying that if you're a PvE player and you wander into a PvP zone and get killed that represents human nature. If the human species did that throughout history...we would be extinct.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Shwarzchild

[Transcendent]

Can you elaborate on what you think human nature is?

If you're a PVEr with no group to help you out, avoiding a PVP area is not only the solution, but also the only logical thing to do. If you don't PVP, why would you go to a place where people PVP? How is that human nature?

If you are referring to the inquisitive part of human nature (that people want to see stuff for themselves instead of just avoiding what might harm them) it does exist but also bear in mind that curiosity killed the cat. And in this case the cat is well aware that going to a specific area will most likely get her killed and can choose to avoid that specific area.

 

On the flip side of that, the players like myself who are pretty much solely PvE have enjoyed wandering into the PvP area (in full knowledge i'm going to die). That is part of the fun of it, and the fact once i'm on my feet again i'll go straight back in and try to find the person who killed me and return the favour.

 

I do agree with what someone else has said, about having PvE quests in a PvP area. Why they have done this is beyond me, they should have had PvP quests in there such as "x amount of damage / healing" or something at least PvP related vs other players. They should also have added in the ability to earn valour while completing those quests.

 

I've read all of the whining in the chat about PvE server etc etc, however it is a PvP area. As a PvE player I take no issue with being killed in the PvP area by other players, I just don't think Bioware took the quests and rewards far enough for the PvP community.

 

As for human nature, it's human nature to complain when you haven't taken into account both sides of the arguement. For one, i'm enjoying the PvP area (it's the first part I go to).

[Khevar]

Self preservation is basic nature which also includes human nature. If you're a PvE player and you're knowingly going into the PvP section, or going to the quest terminal and saying "oh well this is labled PvP, no worries I'll do this anyway" then that PvE player is acting contrary to their nature. At some point people need to understand that you may not enjoy the event, but others do. I think the event is more of a test to see what needs to happen to create a PvP daily area like section X which I am fully in favor of.

 

....

I think this is very well expressed and I agree with this fact.

 

I, as a PvE player (I never do PvP anymore, don't like it), saw that there were PvP options at the mission terminal. I looked up Dulfy's review of the event, and saw that they were optional. These objectives will give some more reputation (and a few other things) but will not get me any more buying power of the new Gree gear (one of the reasons I'm doing the event).

 

I then had a choice, do I do these optional objectives or not? I gathered some friends and did them. Had this option not been available to me, as a PvE player, I would have decided to forgo any rewards from the PvP quests and gone ahead only wih the PvE-area quests.

 

I don't see this as being any different from the event's operation boss, Xenoanalyst II. Any players that cannot get a group together is going to have a hard time doing the SM version of that boss. Any players that cannot get a 61/63 group together is going to have a hard time doing the HM version of that boss.

 

Is it "unfair" to people that do mostly solo stuff? "Why bother adding event content that requires a full group, I play SW:TOR mostly solo"

 

I think this is a similarly silly argument. The PvP-contested quest objectives are optional. If you want to do them, get a group together (safety in numbers). This is how these things work.

[DieterKreps]

Nobody knows what you said here, cuz there are too many words! ur a dink (obviously)

 

What can I say... Some people just never learn. Of course by some people I mean the developer team. Here is my pearl of wisdom on why you are impotent to make open-world PvP on Illum work, heed it or not the choice is yours. The reason is glaringly simple: human nature. It is what you are failing to take into account, and have done so since before launch. This oversight may go unnoticed in single player games, however, this is an MMO and taking human nature into account is the essence of your job. But then you know that and it's why you ended up firing people left and right.

 

As it is right now the only reason majority people venture into the southern bowl is to do the two Gree reputation dailies NOT to PvP. Now I feel for the PvPers out there who actually want to PvP, however, what they get is not a challenge but rather wide-eyed PvEers who are desperately trying to get away but end up getting demolished. Now the good PvPers can only stomach so much of this and eventually let it go, but there are those sorry individuals out there, just as in RL, who enjoy inflicting misery on others and it's they that get to truly enjoy this event in the most perverse fashion. Is that really the kind of people you wish to produce content for?

 

The easy solution to this, and one that has been thrown around so much, is to simply avoid the PvP area if you don't want to get ganged. That is all well and good but it is not human nature to do so, and that's today's word. As developers you have utterly failed your community in not only failing to take human nature into the account, but for not listening to the hundreds of people on both the PvP and PvE side that this was a horrid idea! This is an MMO guys, either start treating it like one or have the guts to throw in the towel and admit that you can only handle single player games, you owe at least that much to your community.

 

It has been thrown around a lot that one of the worst things about this game is the ungrateful community, but the ugly truth is that the community is simply demanding things that have been a staple in the MMO world for years, and the developers are seemly powerless to provide it. All we want is a good (not the best one out the) MMO set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

[Nicolettexiv]

What can I say... Some people just never learn. Of course by some people I mean the developer team. Here is my pearl of wisdom on why you are impotent to make open-world PvP on Illum work, heed it or not the choice is yours. The reason is glaringly simple: human nature. It is what you are failing to take into account, and have done so since before launch. This oversight may go unnoticed in single player games, however, this is an MMO and taking human nature into account is the essence of your job. But then you know that and it's why you ended up firing people left and right.

 

As it is right now the only reason majority people venture into the southern bowl is to do the two Gree reputation dailies NOT to PvP. Now I feel for the PvPers out there who actually want to PvP, however, what they get is not a challenge but rather wide-eyed PvEers who are desperately trying to get away but end up getting demolished. Now the good PvPers can only stomach so much of this and eventually let it go, but there are those sorry individuals out there, just as in RL, who enjoy inflicting misery on others and it's they that get to truly enjoy this event in the most perverse fashion. Is that really the kind of people you wish to produce content for?

 

The easy solution to this, and one that has been thrown around so much, is to simply avoid the PvP area if you don't want to get ganged. That is all well and good but it is not human nature to do so, and that's today's word. As developers you have utterly failed your community in not only failing to take human nature into the account, but for not listening to the hundreds of people on both the PvP and PvE side that this was a horrid idea! This is an MMO guys, either start treating it like one or have the guts to throw in the towel and admit that you can only handle single player games, you owe at least that much to your community.

 

It has been thrown around a lot that one of the worst things about this game is the ungrateful community, but the ugly truth is that the community is simply demanding things that have been a staple in the MMO world for years, and the developers are seemly powerless to provide it. All we want is a good (not the best one out the) MMO set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

 

So what would you suggest they do instead? We might make more leeway as a community if we offered suggestions, proposed solutions, and constructive criticisms rather than, "This is terrible! We hate it! You've failed us!" We're the players. We're their demographic. Without legitimate suggestions and insight, we're merely criticizing their attempts to make this game great, and giving them little to no direction to go forward.

 

Offering some insight of what we do want, while being reasonable, considering feasibility and logistics, might actually help the community get what it wants. Having some understanding of MMOs, and the development process might help in ensuring suggestions aren't entirely unreasonable (i.e., free repairs, currency/economy, give me gear, work =/= fun).

[Nicolettexiv]

My whole point is that the developers did not take this into account and set up the event to fail as a result. The reason for this is that when given a task in a game, MMO or otherwise, people inherently want to complete it, and no one thinks that they will be griefed, even though they should expect it. This much the developers know, what they failed to take into account, however, is the nature of the griefers i.e. that they will keep harassing people because they get a kick out of it. Aka a recipe for disaster.

 

 

So as you can see human nature is very relevant to this.

 

As for your other point, that the community is somehow "entitled", we can argue until the cows came home. All of these quotes you have only prove my point that people want simple MMO staples and the developers are incapable of offering. Furthermore, even if people were "entitled" they have every right to be, ever hear the phrase "the customer is always right"? I harbor no illusions that anyone is capable of creating something that makes a diverse audience like the one in an MMO entirely happy, but when you are told by hundreds of people that something is a bad idea and you do it anyway... Well you tell me what that deserves.

 

Are you certain they didn't account for that? Having avid PvPers and Griefers on the dev team (as evidenced by the last Summit, and interviews) it would seem they know that it's an enjoyable element of PvP, and they provided it as such, however limited it so PvE players could avoid it.

 

Unfortunately, the hundreds of people saying something is a bad idea don't often offer any insight as to how they would like it to be (at least, not reasonable insight) and they don't account for the hundreds who are happy with the system, and not feeling the need to bother with the forums to voice their satisfaction. So you see, they have to account for more than just the most vocal. Especially when the most vocal make ultimatums that they'll unsubscribe, they're giving up, or the game is a failure. If they've given up, want to quit, and are that dissatisfied, then wouldn't the devs cater to those who are satisfied? Or try to win back those who say they're done, potentially at the expense of those who are content? They review more data and feedback than just forum postings. And how they get through most of them, I have no idea, as unfortunately it lacks much input beyond venom, vented frustrations and threats to unsubscribe.

 

For many of the prominent issues I've perused today, it would seem entitlement is a major issue. Unfortunately, in an MMO, they have to consider which entitlements they grant. And rarely is the customer "always right". Many of the demands here could potentially devastate the game, as many of the demands are made without knowing the full repercussions those change would entail. So, BW has to filter through the feedback, and guess what changes will make players happy in lieu of constructive input, what players currently like (can't ostracize one crowd for the other: balance), what won't break the game's social structure, and then take a shot in the dark to give everyone a little of what they want, without upsetting the games balance (even economically).

[Helig]

Umm I am not asking for advice on how to do quests, I maxed out the weekly reputation in a few hours yesterday. I am simply stating that the event is a failure because the developers failed to take human nature and psychology into account.

 

No. I think that they *did* take human nature into account, and that is why they made it an open PvP zone. PvP happening in an open PvP area with "hot" event incentives - that's what the game needs for the community to wake up from mindnumbing PvE and vanilla warzones. I wholeheartedly support and approve.

[Khevar]

Another Ilum event anecdote from last night.

 

I grouped with 4 other PvE'ers in a low-population Ilum instance and we decided to burn through the PvP quests while the gettin' was good.

 

We noticed a well-known PvPer (wearing his full EWH set) looking for any lone wolfs and demolishing them in true bully fashion. He kept going after low-ish geared players that had no chance of winning against him. Well, the four of us decided to stick around and sort of "Justice League". We basically patrolled for an hour, and every time we saw this guy attack another lone player we would kill him. We never attacked him unprovoked, and we never interfered if he tried taking on a group.

 

Eventually he got tired of not being able to grief other players and switched to another instance of Ilum.

 

THIS was fun. I generally never ever PvP but I really enjoyed being all white-knighty and stuff.

 

Incidentally, we weren't worried about the jerk bringing his guild down to retaliate death on us, as he was recently booted for being a (surprise!) jerk. HA.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Khevar

[DarkIntelligence]

Another Ilum event anecdote from last night.

 

I grouped with 4 other PvE'ers in a low-population Ilum instance and we decided to burn through the PvP quests while the gettin' was good.

 

We noticed a well-known PvPer (wearing his full EWH set) looking for any lone wolfs and demolishing them in true bully fashion. He kept going after low-ish geared players that had no chance of winning against him. Well, the four of us decided to stick around and sort of "Justice League". We basically patrolled for an hour, and every time we saw this guy attack another lone player we would kill him. We never attacked him unprovoked, and we never interfered if he tried taking on a group.

 

Eventually he got tired of not being able to grief other players and switched to another instance of Ilum.

 

THIS was fun. I generally never ever PvP but I really enjoyed being all white-knighty and stuff.

 

Incidentally, we weren't worried about the jerk bringing his guild down to retaliate death on us, as he was recently booted for being a (surprise!) jerk. HA.

 

Thank you so much for sharing this. This is exactly the type of situation I meant to explain, albeit in what many people thought were too many word... I was merely pointing out that this event promotes and facilitates this kind of deplorable behavior. All I can say is thank goodness that you and your friends were there, but as in RL you are the rare ones, not the "jerk" you prevented from griefing people.

[DarkIntelligence]

It isn't a misquote and it is a rather effective way to illustrate the degree to which I disagree with your entire thread.

 

 

 

Yes, you are entitled to this opinion. Having played a few MMOs, I'm not sure what BioWare is doing worse than most developers.

 

 

 

Is it? Firstly, I've never really experienced the majority of *bugs* people refer to. The ones that penetrated my consciousness were fixed rather quickly, either in a patch or in response to a ticket. Secondly, I again have to call you out on your opinion of this event. Reiteration: your opinion of it is not unanimously shared by the community.

 

 

 

Replete. Adjective. To be filled or well-supplied with something. Synonyms. full - fraught - saturate.

 

A friendly warning not to call me on my wordage and verbiage; while my writing style is unique and excessive at times, my spelling, grammar, typography, and punctuation usage -- including that semi-colon -- are quite purposefully placed. The vast majority of people who go down this route do not come out of the conversation either appearing, or feeling, particularly learned.

 

An adult response to the above is an apology; this is not expected but I have some tips you may wish to follow prior to calling someone out on spelling or grammar. If you wish me to relate them, I will happily do so. I follow them myself and they prevent me from making the mistake you just made.

 

- Arcada

 

I would point out that my postscript was meant in jest, as evidenced by the at the end, but I am afraid it would be lost on you as you clearly lack a sense of humor. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on "replete" as English is, after all, the third of five languages in which in am fluent and I haven't used it as long as you, however, in all of the time that I have it has always been used to refer to foodstuff by myself and those with whom I have communicated.

[Khevar]

Thank you so much for sharing this. This is exactly the type of situation I meant to explain, albeit in what many people thought were too many word... I was merely pointing out that this event promotes and facilitates this kind of deplorable behavior. All I can say is thank goodness that you and your friends were there, but as in RL you are the rare ones, not the "jerk" you prevented from griefing people.

You may be right about us being the rare ones. It's hard for me to say definitively.

 

I can say that most of my experiences have been positive. I was bring trolled doing dailies on Ilum one day (kept getting stunned by a stealthed operative in the base when I was trying to turn in a quest. Complained in gen chat and pubs came far and wide to defend the base and throw out the intruding party.

 

Went to go in the Outlaw's Den twice for the HK part. The first time nobody attacked me. The second time nobody was around to attack me.

 

First time doing Ilum Gree event PvP quests, I saw a queue of people waiting to trigger the contested area spot. Nobody jumped the line or attacked another player. Second time doing same was the above story.

 

I believe that there are people who are just plain jerks and there are normal people who can get pissed off and temporarily act like jerks. I also believe that the dedicated jerks are in the minority. I also believe that in a world event like the Gree one, there are in-game solutions to avoiding jerks. The main one being "form a group for safety"

 

This event isn't particularly interesting or inspired and could have been better written or engineered. But I find it difficult to feel strongly about the fact there is an optional component to the quests in a contested PvP area.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Khevar

[TheNahash]

All of these quotes you have only prove my point that people want simple MMO staples and the developers are incapable of offering.

 

Nope.

All these quotes prove that people buy Monopoly and want it to feel like The Settlers of Catan.

Sure, Monopoly could get better with a few ideas from TSoC, but it's not what it is. What I mean is that people want SWTOR to be more like SWG. Or WoW. Or LOTRO. Or GW2. Or...or...or...

So, I'm sticking to what I previously said: This is a story-driven MMO with its own set of rules and ways of playing. Sure, it looks a lot like WoW sometimes, but it's not WoW or any other MMO for that matter. It's a different beast and developers should have the freedom to decide what they want to implement in their own MMO just as we have the freedom to leave if we don't like their ideas. It goes without saying that suggestions from paying customers should be taken into consideration (after all this is not just an artistic expression, it's a product that needs to be sold), but they should not do whatever the hell the community wants them to do and you know why? Because the community DOESN'T know what it wants.

Give me ONE thing you believe everyone agrees on and I bet there is a thread with some people opposing it.

 

Furthermore, even if people were "entitled" they have every right to be, ever hear the phrase "the customer is always right"? I harbor no illusions that anyone is capable of creating something that makes a diverse audience like the one in an MMO entirely happy, but when you are told by hundreds of people that something is a bad idea and you do it anyway... Well you tell me what that deserves.

 

No, I'm sorry, they don't.

A paying customer always enjoys the luxury of being able to take his business elsewhere. There are plenty of other MMOs out there and the customer would not lose anything by leaving - Bioware/EA on the other hand would and they are the ones that have to try to keep everyone happy and it seems that no matter what they do, people will just complain.

 

However, there is something that everyone can have: common sense.

If someone goes solo, wearing tionese gear, to an area designated for PVPers, what does common sense tell us that's gonna happen? Death.

Anyone's free to go explore the areas they want, but they should be aware that when they try to do a PVP quest in a PVP area...well...there's a chance they might have to PVP and also there's a chance people will act like jerks...

That's as irrational as saying that Bioware is not listening to its customers that want to visit Correlia at level 20 and survive. After all, they are paying customers. And they want to explore something. It's human nature, isn't it?

 

Common sense.

 

Lastly, events are supposed to promote grouping.

So, the poor PVEr that's bound to get killed or ganked could very well find 3 other people to group up with and do the PVP quests without having to worry as much that he's going to get destroyed every 2 seconds.

 

Apart from creating solely PVE events (which would be unfair to PVPers) I don't see how "human nature" the way you describe it could be prevented from intervening and spoiling other people's fun.

 

Their intention (obviously) was to create an event that would have some PVP elements and they have a PVP quest that you can do in a PVP area.

 

Honestly, I don't think the issue you're describing needs any more philosophical and psychological analysis.

 

You're describing a PVP quest.

PVErs shouldn't do it unless they're prepared to either die a lot or group up with other people.

What's so wrong about that?

Edited February 16, 2013 by TheNahash

[DarkIntelligence]

Nope.

All these quotes prove that people buy Monopoly and want it to feel like The Settlers of Catan.

Sure, Monopoly could get better with a few ideas from TSoC, but it's not what it is. What I mean is that people want SWTOR to be more like SWG. Or WoW. Or LOTRO. Or GW2. Or...or...or...

So, I'm sticking to what I previously said: This is a story-driven MMO with its own set of rules and ways of playing. Sure, it looks a lot like WoW sometimes, but it's not WoW or any other MMO for that matter. It's a different beast and developers should have the freedom to decide what they want to implement in their own MMO just as we have the freedom to leave if we don't like their ideas. It goes without saying that suggestions from paying customers should be taken into consideration (after all this is not just an artistic expression, it's a product that needs to be sold), but they should not do whatever the hell the community wants them to do and you know why? Because the community DOESN'T know what it wants.

Give me ONE thing you believe everyone agrees on and I bet there is a thread with some people opposing it.

 

 

 

No, I'm sorry, they don't.

A paying customer always enjoys the luxury of being able to take his business elsewhere. There are plenty of other MMOs out there and the customer would not lose anything by leaving - Bioware/EA on the other hand would and they are the ones that have to try to keep everyone happy and it seems that no matter what they do, people will just complain.

 

However, there is something that everyone can have: common sense.

If someone goes solo, wearing tionese gear, to an area designated for PVPers, what does common sense tell us that's gonna happen? Death.

Anyone's free to go explore the areas they want, but they should be aware that when they try to do a PVP quest in a PVP area...well...there's a chance they might have to PVP and also there's a chance people will act like jerks...

That's as irrational as saying that Bioware is not listening to its customers that want to visit Correlia at level 20 and survive. After all, they are paying customers. And they want to explore something. It's human nature, isn't it?

 

Common sense.

 

Lastly, events are supposed to promote grouping.

So, the poor PVEr that's bound to get killed or ganked could very well find 3 other people to group up with and do the PVP quests without having to worry as much that he's going to get destroyed every 2 seconds.

 

Apart from creating solely PVE events (which would be unfair to PVPers) I don't see how "human nature" the way you describe it could be prevented from intervening and spoiling other people's fun.

 

Their intention (obviously) was to create an event that would have some PVP elements and they have a PVP quest that you can do in a PVP area.

 

Honestly, I don't think the issue you're describing needs any more philosophical and psychological analysis.

 

You're describing a PVP quest.

PVErs shouldn't do it unless they're prepared to either die a lot or group up with other people.

What's so wrong about that?

 

Ok you either didn't read what I wrote or misunderstood it, and that may be my fault because of the way I phrased it, and if that's the case I am sorry.

 

I am certainly not trying to psychoanalyze human nature, I have neither the expertise nor the desire to do so. My point essentially boils down to this: the developers' lack of understanding on how people react to these events (aka human nature, ONLY in that narrow sense), including people putting themselves into a situation that will expose them to griefing as well as the nature of griefers, promotes and facilitates griefing NOT Open-World-PvP. I certainly don't think they did this intentionally, and it is why I took the time to write this, so that they can hopefully learn from this mistake and make better events in the future.

 

The only thing they have to do to fix this is having made the PvP area Faction v. Faction and not a free-for-all grief-fest. Now I was able to avoid griefing both by grouping with friends, and even solo because I have 1400 expertise and either simply kill the person trying to gang me, or if I am outnumbered kite them around half the zone until they get tired of chasing me and switch to an easier target who doesn't have the gear I do. I can't emphasize enough that I am not writing this for my own benefit but to help the community in general.

 

I really don't know how to put it any simpler than that. I also don't know why some people are making it seems like I am "whining" or "pontificating" or being "ungrateful" to the developers. All I am trying to do is voice my opinion and give advice I feel will improve this game in the future. Isn't that what these forums are for!?

 

Again, if my choice of words is confusing people I do appologize but as I pointed out already, English is not my first, or second, but third language.

[Delekahn]

 

The event is starting to look like a failure because it's simply BORING,

 

 

I have to agree totally that the event is boring. When I was reading about the items I was excited about a Legacy weapon. I have long wanted purple crystals for my republic toons and figured a legacy weapon was the only way for me to do that. After two days of doing each quest, I just couldnt log back in to repeat them.

 

In fact, I am really burnt out on the end game repeats. My 50's are pretty much up on shelves after running the FPs and Dailies... not sure how much longer I can stay interested.