Mattmonkey Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Hullo Bioware when you released the game armour debuffs stacked. This ment that guardians had a high raid utility - as 5 stack of stacking sunder armour for the whole fight beats 15 sec of inspiration. However you nurfed armour debuffs so they no longer stacked. This has ment that guardians dont have much raid utility - the top guilds take sentinals because they have slightly better DPS & great raid utility. PLease fix this in the expansion. My preference is that you make our DPS top notch and leave us without great utility. Guardians are great fun to play even thou i have a sentinal geared to raid I would much prefer to DPS with my vigilance guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthFamine Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 you are a tank. it's not your job to DPS, you job is to hold threat while everyone else kills them. our raid group had a guardian tank and he does just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atramar Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 from data mine on interwebs,they are buffing vigilance/vengence (reduce crit on scream and removing it from vicious throw, but increase of overall damage and more procs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So-low Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 you are a tank. it's not your job to DPS, you job is to hold threat while everyone else kills them. our raid group had a guardian tank and he does just fine. He stated he was a DPS Guardian, not a tank. Not all Guardians are tanks. Learn to read before being condescending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthFamine Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Firstly no he never said he was a dps. Just that he wanted better DPS than a sent secondly Sents can ONLY be DPS so they naturally need more damage and utility than guardians else they would never get in a raid. I simply disagree with the OP's position. No I'm not being condescending those are just the facts. Take your own advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marb Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) secondly Sents can ONLY be DPS so they naturally need more damage and utility than guardians else they would never get in a raid. There are no hybrid taxes in this game. If a guardian is spec'd to dps, the dps output should be within a reasonable window with ALL other dps specs, even if certain AC's have a tank tree. Having a tank tree in your AC is NOT taken into account when balancing dps output. The OP wanting greater parity between guardian dps and sentinel dps is a legitimate point. I can understand specialised dps AC's like the slinger and sentinel bringing more raid utility, but dps should be in line with other dps trees from all of the classes. Edited February 12, 2013 by Marb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setta Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 There are no hybrid taxes in this game. If a guardian is spec'd to dps, the dps output should be within a reasonable window with ALL other dps specs, even if certain AC's have a tank tree. Having a tank tree in your AC is NOT taken into account when balancing dps output. The OP wanting greater parity between guardian dps and sentinel dps is a legitimate point. I can understand specialised dps AC's like the slinger and sentinel bringing more raid utility, but dps should be in line with other dps trees from all of the classes. There may not be an official "hybrid tax" but I find it funny that the classes with heals generally produce a lot less damage than the other classes. In fact currently sage / sorcerer, scoundrel / agent, and commando / mercenary are considered some of the weakest classes in the game when it comes to dps. Until they get reasonably close to the rest of the dps classes, I could care less if guardians / juggernauts put out slightly less dps than their other ac counterparts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marb Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 There may not be an official "hybrid tax" but I find it funny that the classes with heals generally produce a lot less damage than the other classes. In fact currently sage / sorcerer, scoundrel / agent, and commando / mercenary are considered some of the weakest classes in the game when it comes to dps. Until they get reasonably close to the rest of the dps classes, I could care less if guardians / juggernauts put out slightly less dps than their other ac counterparts. Dps disparity between other classes doesn't diminish the need for guardians to be brought in line as well. There is no grand conspiracy. And you seem to put all those classes in the same bad bucket, when ops and sorcs are far worse then mercs. Merc dps shortcomings are closer to guardian dps and advanced prototype powertech. Behind the top classes, but still ops viable. Ops and sorcs are only ops viable if they can ride the wave of snipers and marauders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlosBC Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Firstly no he never said he was a dps. Just that he wanted better DPS than a sent secondly Sents can ONLY be DPS so they naturally need more damage and utility than guardians else they would never get in a raid. I simply disagree with the OP's position. No I'm not being condescending those are just the facts. Take your own advice He said "I want to DPS on my vigilance guardian". Says DPS to me. Maras and snipers get extra raid utility cool downs, and ability to respec to more varied DPS trees for different fights. Tank-capable AC utility = taunt and ability to respec. Heal-capable AC utility = off heals(which are terrible), battleres, and ability to respec. DPS across all ACs should be roughly equivalent, instead of there being a 20%+ difference between highest and lowest ACs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setta Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Dps disparity between other classes doesn't diminish the need for guardians to be brought in line as well. There is no grand conspiracy. And you seem to put all those classes in the same bad bucket, when ops and sorcs are far worse then mercs. Merc dps shortcomings are closer to guardian dps and advanced prototype powertech. Behind the top classes, but still ops viable. Ops and sorcs are only ops viable if they can ride the wave of snipers and marauders. Merc isn't as bad as sorcs, or ops I agree, but from what I'm seeing powertech dps is at the top of the game, even ahead of snipers and marauders for some reason. Then it just becomes a sliding scale. The difference between a jug, and a marauder isn't as big as it is with a merc and powertech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planet_J Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Let me prequalify this by saying this is the best of the parses that I have PERSONALLY seen..that did not have outside help/buffs. Adrenal and Stimson were used...but nothing else. Sentinel/marauder - 2288 watchman sentinel Sniper/GS - 2164 MM Sniper Pt/vg - 2071 PT Pyro Commando/merc - 1868 Pyro merc Op/scoundrel - 1729 Lethality operative Sage/Sorc - 1821 lightning sorc That in no way means that there not any higher...but those are the highest I have seen without outside buffs like armor pen etc. The disparity is pretty easily seen without statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marb Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Merc isn't as bad as sorcs, or ops I agree, but from what I'm seeing powertech dps is at the top of the game, even ahead of snipers and marauders for some reason. Then it just becomes a sliding scale. The difference between a jug, and a marauder isn't as big as it is with a merc and powertech. Again I am going to have to say you're wrong. It sounds like you have some strong opinions based purley on obeservation. Pyrotech dps is easily within sniper and mara damage, the only thing that will make it pull ahead are specific fights that are movement heavy. Merc dps is not underpowered, ops parses and tor parse don't support that statement. They are not represented as much, but they are still up with the big boys in heavy burn phases (1900-2000dps). In fact I would argue that merc is more dps capable then a dps jugg. Edited March 12, 2013 by Marb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siorac Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Again I am going to have to say your wrong. It sounds like you have some strong opinions based purley on obeservation. Pyrotech dps is easily within sniper and mara damage, the only thing that will make it pull ahead are specific fights that are movement heavy. Merc dps is not underpowered, ops parses and tor parse don't support that statement. They are not represented as much, but they are still up with the big boys in heavy burn phases (1900-2000dps). In fact I would argue that merc is more dps capable then a dps jugg. Indeed, at least Arsenal/Gunnery is definitely a great spec in PvE. The rotation and the energy management isn't that difficult as far as I'm aware and it's nowhere near as RNG-based as Vengeance/Vigilance where a LOT depends on Ravage/Master Strike resets and on your luck with crits on Overhead Slash/Impale and Shatter/Plasma Brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vankris Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 i never understood why you can stack the bloodthirst/inspiration in a raid. You have 1 sentinel, you can have 1 inspiration every 5 minute. You have 2, you can have 2. With this in mind, in understand that if the strat for a given boss doesn't requies off tanking or off taunting, you better off taking a sentinel because of the raid utility. I think sentinel need to be fixed in that way, inspiration should be raid wide, not just group wide, but place a debuff on who recieve the effect of the inspiration, so that then can't have another one for 5 minute. You might even reduce the Cooldown to 1 min, the debuff is enough. That way, you don't build your strat based on how many sentinel you have in raid, you don't make weird group where you place all the dps in the same group and the tank/heal in another group . You don't have the odd dps player not affected by the inspiration and you don't sit around before a boss pull waiting for the inspiration CD to refresh after a quick wipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama-Eight Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Merc dps shortcomings are closer to guardian dps and advanced prototype powertech. Behind the top classes, but still ops viable. Ops and sorcs are only ops viable if they can ride the wave of snipers and marauders. In my experience, that's not entirely true. My guild's Sage DPS does comparable DPS to my Gunnery Commando on most fights (sometimes more, sometimes less), so player skill comes into it quite a lot. I'm not sure what you'd see if you looked at a bunch of the top parses for Sage/Commando DPS, but I'd probably have a look at them first before making any pronouncements about balance (as I've clearly not ). As to the OP's original request, there's nothing stopping an Ops raid taking either of the DPS ACs for the armour debuff, if you're very good at playing that AC/build & can put out higher numbers than the equivalent GS/Commando, they should take you. Edit: The OP's argument also works for a raid not taking a Gunnery Commando, since we don't offer much utility (off-heals rather than off-tanking) either. Edited February 13, 2013 by Llama-Eight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marb Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 In my experience, that's not entirely true. My guild's Sage DPS does comparable DPS to my Gunnery Commando on most fights (sometimes more, sometimes less), so player skill comes into it quite a lot. I'm not sure what you'd see if you looked at a bunch of the top parses for Sage/Commando DPS, but I'd probably have a look at them first before making any pronouncements about balance (as I've clearly not ). The proof is on toreparse.com for anyone to see, I am not making observations, just looking at what people in the game are actually achieving on these classes. The results are damning for sages and operatives, and don't support the emerging sentiment of arsenal mercs not putting out competitive dps. While I don't mean to insult you as I don't know the context of your results, they are outside of what's showing up on torparse. I could only make a judgement call and say you are comparing encounters that favour one class over the other, or the sage was playing significantly better then the merc. Its hard to say for certain without logs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama-Eight Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 and don't support the emerging sentiment of arsenal mercs not putting out competitive dps. That's always been in PvP though, since gunnery is so easy to shut down (especially by melee DPS) & dots are less useful in PvP than burst. While I don't mean to insult you as I don't know the context of your results, they are outside of what's showing up on torparse. I could only make a judgement call and say you are comparing encounters that favour one class over the other, or the sage was playing significantly better then the merc. Its hard to say for certain without logs. It's entirely possible that our sage player is a better player than me (he's probably got better raid awarenes for a start), he might also have better gear than me (which would help, even if it's not a primary factor). But over the raids that we do (we've cleared everything except EC nightmare & there's no real desire for us to do that), we're filling similar roles (both on Zorn, both sitting out in the TFB final fight to take the spits) & doing similar DPS. TFB SM (ignore the Zorn/Toth bits, some additional logs got uploaded in error) EC Nightmare, didn't go well TFB HM Another TFB HM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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