Stuns are killing PvP

[Jekan]

I agree, CC is ridiculous. The change to resolve was not was needed, they gave the exact wrong thing diminishing returns.

 

As a cybertech sniper here are all the CC abilities I have and their cool downs:

 

Seismic Grenade - 4 second knockdown

"Gooey grenade" - insane slow grenade

Both of these are short range, small radius 3 minute shared cooldown, so not horrible on the surface

 

But now let's chain in:

Flashbang - long range 8 second 5 target stun, breaks on damage - base 60s cooldown, but can be talented lower

Debilitate - Melee range stun, 4 seconds, does not break on damage - base 45s cooldown, can be talented lower

 

So, as a cybertech sniper, I have 3 ways to chain CC someone (2 of 4 share a cooldown, so I can only use one at a time, thus the 3).

 

But there's only one CC break on a 2 minute cool down (can be talented for lower, but not by much).

 

I want to know what the PvP team was smoking when they thought that this was a great idea. It's not. I am pretty certain that if it's not addressed, people will leave. EA/BW continuing to play ostrich on this will quickly find themselves down to one server. OK maybe not, but it will cause a bleed of subs.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Jekan

[Nitroblue]

 

E). You're overstating the facts so much that the facts have become a fairy tale about flying unicorns trying to mate with four-headed monkeys of which each head has a different rainbow-colored afro.

You can get a kill by simply taking your face, smashing it repeatedly into your keyboard while throwing your mouse against the nearest wall.

 

This is the funniest thing I have heard for awhile.

 

I love stuns. I especially love people who don't know when to use their stuns (on the opposing team anyway).

Agree 101%.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Nitroblue

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

I agree, CC is ridiculous. The change to resolve was not was needed, they gave the exact wrong thing diminishing returns.

 

As a cybertech sniper here are all the CC abilities I have and their cool downs:

 

Seismic Grenade - 4 second knockdown

"Gooey grenade" - insane slow grenade

Both of these are short range, small radius 3 minute shared cooldown, so not horrible on the surface

 

But now let's chain in:

Flashbang - long range 8 second 5 target stun, breaks on damage - base 60s cooldown, but can be talented lower

Debilitate - Melee range stun, 4 seconds, does not break on damage - base 45s cooldown, can be talented lower

 

So, as a cybertech sniper, I have 3 ways to chain CC someone (2 of 4 share a cooldown, so I can only use one at a time, thus the 3).

 

But there's only one CC break on a 2 minute cool down (can be talented for lower, but not by much).

 

I want to know what the PvP team was smoking when they thought that this was a great idea. It's not. I am pretty certain that if it's not addressed, people will leave. EA/BW continuing to play ostrich on this will quickly find themselves down to one server. OK maybe not, but it will cause a bleed of subs.

 

Thank you. This exactly. Look at the Marauder, they have displacement (2 talents) with 100% ability to disable someone for three seconds when using deadly throw. Cool down is 12 seconds on Deadly throw. Overwhelm (2 talents), 100% chance to immobilize someone for the duration when using Ravage. Cool down is 27 seconds (can be talented down) on Ravage. Intimidating Roar, (skill), paralyzes all targets in the area of effect for six seconds. Cool down is 60 seconds. Force Crush, (1 talent), slows the target anywhere up to 10% of their movement speed. Cool down is 18 seconds. Force Charge, stuns the target for 3 seconds. Cool down is 15 seconds. Force Choke, immobilizes (stuns) the target for (I think) 6 seconds. Cool down is 60 seconds.

 

So that's six stuns, including a slow down, with a combined cool down of 192 seconds (3 minutes, 12 seconds). Cool down on the single stun breaker is 120 seconds (2 minutes). This on top of them putting out some of, if not the best DPS of any class. How is that balanced for PvP? Sure, those who like to dominate warzones without thought to the longer term health of the game will say they like it. Fair minded people will see the problem here.

[Belly]

Thank you. This exactly. Look at the Marauder, they have displacement (2 talents) with 100% ability to disable someone for three seconds when using deadly throw. Cool down is 12 seconds on Deadly throw. Overwhelm (2 talents), 100% chance to immobilize someone for the duration when using Ravage. Cool down is 27 seconds (can be talented down) on Ravage. Intimidating Roar, (skill), paralyzes all targets in the area of effect for six seconds. Cool down is 60 seconds. Force Crush, (1 talent), slows the target anywhere up to 10% of their movement speed. Cool down is 18 seconds. Force Charge, stuns the target for 3 seconds. Cool down is 15 seconds. Force Choke, immobilizes (stuns) the target for (I think) 6 seconds. Cool down is 60 seconds.

 

So that's six stuns, including a slow down, with a combined cool down of 192 seconds (3 minutes, 12 seconds). Cool down on the single stun breaker is 120 seconds (2 minutes). This on top of them putting out some of, if not the best DPS of any class. How is that balanced for PvP? Sure, those who like to dominate warzones without thought to the longer term health of the game will say they like it. Fair minded people will see the problem here.

 

No single Marauder can do this. Force Crush is at the top of the Rage tree and Overwhelm is pretty near the top of the carnage tree. Force Charge and Force choke are 2 seconds and 3 seconds respectively

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

No single Marauder can do this. Force Crush is at the top of the Rage tree and Overwhelm is pretty near the top of the carnage tree. Force Charge and Force choke are 2 seconds and 3 seconds respectively

 

Fair to say but I wasn't trying to suggest they could, I was demonstrating the range of different stuns available to one particular class. Even if you just take Intimidating roar, they can use that twice as fast as you can use your stun breaker and the usual tactic is to set them off in a cascading manner so that everyone uses up their release ability and remains stunned. Intimidating road affects all targets in range and it's a rare WZ that contains a single Mara. This is just an example. The problem extends beyond a single class.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Ulfrik_Wulfgar

[LordFenixx]

Resolve right now isn't even good enough to be called a pathetic joke. Even WoW isn't this bad with CC, because there is actually a diminishing returns and I didn't think anyone would make a system even stupider than what WoW had in place. This system wins, though.

 

Right now, it seems like the only time you're actually immune to CC is when you're dead or have 2-3 healers healing you depending on who is attacking you. I'm sure that I'm not the only person that has had 3 straight stuns put on them. It also seems like if you break a stun and get stunned right away again, the reduced resolve to stun is still in effect even though you're not stunned. Also, the white bar itself doesn't last very long. And of course roots still have no effect on resolve and you can be rooted indefinitely. It's not fun when you're carrying the ball and you get whited barred from bubbles and other stuns, then rooted until it wears off just to be white barred again and rooted until it goes away again. Can't throw the ball to anyone else because they'll die instantly, even with 3 healers healing them. Eventually, I downed it after almost 2 minutes so someone else could try and run the ball away from everyone after moving a whole 10 meters. Playing your character doesn't seem to be an intention when comes to pvp in this game.

[Monterone]

... I didn't think anyone would make a system even stupider than what WoW had in place. This system wins, though.

 

Right now, it seems like the only time you're actually immune to CC is when you're dead or have 2-3 healers healing you depending on who is attacking you. ...

 

This couldn't be more true. The only time you have full resolve any more is when you're standing behind the re-spawn door. Yeah, that's a slight exaggeration but it's pretty much true.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Monterone

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

Yeah, that's a slight exaggeration but it's pretty much true.

 

Not much of one.

[Marcus__]

Stuns do have me kinda pissed off. Chain stuns don't usually happen to me unless I'm either acting like a retard and going alone or I'm the ball carrier in huttball. CCs definitely need some tweaking though as nobody should be able to be stunned for 15 consecutive seconds.

 

I would consider a more subtle fix to this for pvp with either the lowering of the CD for your CC break or the increase in CD for CCs (combined with a mechanism that inhibits consecutive CC usage without a buffer ability between execution of each). I would also, as a matter of sympathy for less talented players (like me lol), have an insta CD on your CC break upon death.

[lxynl]

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't possible unles;

 

A). Facing hackers.

B). Facing a premade team of Scoundrels/Operatives who are specifically targetting you and you alone.

C). You suck immensely.

D). You run around solo instead of working as a group (ties back into point C).

E). You're overstating the facts so much that the facts have become a fairy tale about flying unicorns trying to mate with four-headed monkeys of which each head has a different rainbow-colored afro.

 

You can get a kill by simply taking your face, smashing it repeatedly into your keyboard while throwing your mouse against the nearest wall.

 

 

I love stuns. I especially love people who don't know when to use their stuns (on the opposing team anyway).

 

Yeah, if you're one of those people who randomly runs around solo, you will get stunlocked to death. But in that case, the fault does not lie with the stuns.

 

 

To me, taking out or diminishing stuns, actually decreases the amount of skill required. Stuns, like any other ability, are the tools that any class gets. True, some classes get more/better stuns then others. But if you're going to go that route, Bioware might just as well decide to wipe the slate clean and have everyone roll a single class with a single AC so that people can't moan and complain about the grass on the other side.

 

Sorry if I come off as a bit offensive. It's by no means meant as a personal attack or anything. It's just that it's starting to peeve me off a bit how everyone seems to complain rather than deal with it.

 

You are not offensive, but then you are not very knowledgeable either. There should be NO "stunlocked to death", this isnt skill, it isnt knowledge of your class, to push one or two keys as anyone is stunned until death. Skill happens when you are faced with an opponets move and you know how to counter it and do so, not just beat a helpless avator.

 

All the stunns, chokes, knockbacks, bubbles, kicks in the nuts, blinds are out of hand. While everyone needs a way to snare, or escape the idea of diminishing returns was to prevent these being over used as they are right now.

 

No one, not me, not you not anyone wants to be stun locked to death, yes I will die most if not all the time 2v1, but if thats the case I want a chance to fight back or run. The point is regardless if its a combination of roots,knock backs, chokes or whatever no one wants to loose control of their toon full health to death and that is just what is happening right now in wz's. I understand it upset many people who in fact have no skill so when this is brought up it makes them peeved off cause without this apparently they have to skill.

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

this isnt skill, it isnt knowledge of your class, to push one or two keys as anyone is stunned until death. Skill happens when you are faced with an opponets move and you know how to counter it and do so, not just beat a helpless avator.

 

It could also be asked how one is meant to learn how to use their class when all they ever do is stand stunned until they die? There's no learning curve. Stuns/Snares should be used tactically, for example, as a way to escape a mob's attention. Right now they're being horribly abused and whether I'm on the team abusing them or being abused by them, if you look at the longer term picture, it's damaging to the game.

[foxmob]

I would consider a more subtle fix to this for pvp with either the lowering of the CD for your CC break or the increase in CD for CCs (combined with a mechanism that inhibits consecutive CC usage without a buffer ability between execution of each). I would also, as a matter of sympathy for less talented players (like me lol), have an insta CD on your CC break upon death.

 

unfortunately, the winning strat in most wz's involves liberal - although not mindless - use of cc. the list:

 

 

• huttball: wait to score until you have ppl mid. toss a bunch of grenades at mid as soon as you or the other team scores. the team with the shadow/sin who timed his resilience/shroud best wins and grabs ball.
  
• novarre coast: cap natural node. send 7 ppl south. predation + sprint. 2 ppl grenade other team asap. 7 ppl start cap. warriors/knights leap to stunned opponents. awe as soon as they get up. 5 other teammates complete the cap. voila. game over. very unusual for closely matched teams to turn a node.
  
• civil war: taking mid here is the most difficult between relatively equal teams. cc is, of course, necessary. but it's not as big a deal as in NC. the decider here is usually who has predation plus a shadow/sin to sprint cap and guard.
  
• hypergate: cc is used to cap pylons and ninja them more often in regs than rated. but breaking from the mid, a jugg and a sin can make or break a close match. not exactly a kind reward for being able to get back to mid and survive there. you're better of /stuck and sprinting from the spawn. :|
  
• vstar: aoe mezz, stun and knockdown are essential to buying time for capper. kind of frustrating when you exit spawn because it's impossible to avoid the aoe mezz/stun without stopping, which accomplishes the cc's purpose for it.
  

 

so there it is. CC makes or break hb & nc. it's extremely important in vstar. it's very useful in cw. and snares can make or break a close ahg; mezzes tend to make regs look foolish.

 

upon careful reconsideration, I would say that there's too much aoe cc in this game. and the fact that grenades are available to every class, although egalitarian, exacerbates the issue. e.g., you're giving a jk 2 aoe mezzes that total between 8-10s depending on dmg. iunno. it seems excessive to me. but...alas...it is what it is.

[fuskr]

Agree, as a Vigilance Guardian this is really sad. Force leap, master strike, stun, dead. Please do something about this stupid PvP nonsense BW.

[CorbinCrawford]

I would be very interested for someone to break the classes down into their ACs and within the trees of each AC list the various stuns, roots, snares and mezzes.

 

Then I would be interested to see which of these the community agrees are totally unnecessary for PVP. For PVE we can agree stuns are fine, as doing dailies you can often fight groups of many, or 2x golds at a time - but that said these stuns, roots, snares and mezzes need to function differently in PVP where people DO NOT LIKE being utterly unable to "fight back".

 

Just like pommel strike doesn't work against other players, things like Awe, Flashbang and low slash do not need to be effective against players. As it stands these low cd (low slash especially) are just borderline spammable mechanics that grind someone into the inevitable "I've had enough RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE" mentality.

[Atramar]

Here's an example of a Hypergate match. I'm stood guarding the Pylon and I'm mind mazed. I use my stun breaker and I'm immediately mind mazed again so a team mate comes to investigate. He's Mind Mazed. He uses his breaker and is mind mazed again. The Shadow uncloaks and attacks. I come out of the stun and I'm hit with Force Stun (I presume) and I'm stunned again. I die. So does the team mate who came to help.

 

Now the short sighted amongst us will argue that the Shadow was just using their class to the fullest of its function and fair play to him, I don't begrudge him that but stop and think for a moment. What chance did I have to fight back? It wasn't PvP. The dude may as well have been fighting a practice dummy for all the threat I posed. Can anyone seriously straight faced say they'd have fun being in my position?

 

The stun period for Mind Maze is 60 seconds and it has no cool down. The trade off is it can only be used in cloak. Not much of a balance when most classes can't detect stealth. Yes, yes, yes, the team should have had a stealth detector guarding the Pylon but I don't get to pick team, it is whatever spawns in the WZ with me. It could just as easily been my team that did that but that would no less take away the fact that having a stun with no cool down is a balance breaker. 60 second stun time is enough for any class to kill any class one on one.

 

why use cc break after maze if shadow wasnt capping?

2 snaps fills resolve

mind maze is 8 seconds for players, 60 for mobs in pve

if you died in 4 second stun (which shouldn't happen since 2 mind mazes fills resolve), you were naked or a sorcerer dropping his health to get healing medals??

 

edit:also,after your team mate got mind snap, you should be automatically free of yours.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Atramar

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

why use cc break after maze if shadow wasnt capping?

2 snaps fills resolve

mind maze is 8 seconds for players, 60 for mobs in pve

if you died in 4 second stun (which shouldn't happen since 2 mind mazes fills resolve), you were naked or a sorcerer dropping his health to get healing medals??

 

edit:also,after your team mate got mind snap, you should be automatically free of yours.

 

There's always someone who thinks he's a smart arse. Maybe there where two, I don't know, they where invisible but 8 or 60 seconds makes no difference. The point is that a single class was able to stun and kill another without them being able to fight back for the sole reason that they have more stuns than we do stun breakers. If you can't contribute to a sensible discussion about a widely held agreement then don't post.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Ulfrik_Wulfgar

[Atramar]

There's always someone who thinks he's a smart arse. Maybe there where two, I don't know, they where invisible but 8 or 60 seconds makes no difference. The point is that a single class was able to stun and kill another without them being able to fight back for the sole reason that they have more stuns than we do stun breakers. If you can't contribute to a sensible discussion about a widely held agreement then don't post.

 

there is 52 sec difference between 8 and 60 secs. he won second you and your friend used stun breakers without much of a thought into it, without you even realise you were not stunned and panicked.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Atramar

[TUXs]

There's always someone who thinks he's a smart arse. Maybe there where two, I don't know, they where invisible but 8 or 60 seconds makes no difference. The point is that a single class was able to stun and kill another without them being able to fight back for the sole reason that they have more stuns than we do stun breakers. If you can't contribute to a sensible discussion about a widely held agreement then don't post.

 

Maybe you're reading his reply the wrong way?! He was really quite calm and factual with it - I don't think he was trying to insult you at all...just offer up and explanation.

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

Maybe you're reading his reply the wrong way?! He was really quite calm and factual with it - I don't think he was trying to insult you at all...just offer up and explanation.

 

there is 52 sec difference between 8 and 60 secs. he won second you and your friend used stun breakers without much of a thought into it, without you even realise you were not stunned and panicked.

 

I'll indulge him, this once. My "main" is a Sin, so I know what I'm on about. If I'm using a Sin, the tactic is to get in range to use confuse. Almost every time the player will break it. I hit confuse again, uncloak and hit them with a lightning blast, I hit Spike, they go down and I hit them a few times, they get up and I hit Electrocute, I hit them with more lightning and finish with Assassinate. Unless they're an unbelievably good tanker they'll die. Now I just hit that person with three stuns. For most of the duel, they've been nothing more than an inanimate object. How is that fun for the person I've just fought? How was it fair? What was the point in them turning up to the fight?

 

I gave an example of how the stuns are ruining the game, just as I give one above. Whether that example was 100% accurate makes no difference. If the discussion was about tactics then his reply has merit. Since the discussion is about how there's an over abundance of CC and Stuns in the game his reply is an attempt to derail it. That's what I take exception to. I'm in WZ every day atm and more and more people are leaving the warzone when the enemy team has a high number of CC classes. It is killing PvP for a lot of people and it needs to change urgently. We can either, as a community, troll the hell out of each other in a vain attempt to massage our egos, then moan and cry and call bioware fail when they mess it up or we can come together and come up with a commonly accepted solution to the problem that Bioware, who are likely monitoring this thread given it's seven pages now, can go away and implement. Which is it to be?

Edited February 8, 2013 by Ulfrik_Wulfgar

[Atramar]

I'll indulge him, this once. My "main" is a Sin, so I know what I'm on about. If I'm using a Sin, the tactic is to get in range to use confuse. Almost every time the player will break it. I hit confuse again, uncloak and hit them with a lightning blast, I hit Spike, they go down and I hit them a few times, they get up and I hit Electrocute, I hit them with more lightning and finish with Assassinate. Unless they're an unbelievably good tanker they'll die. Now I just hit that person with three stuns. For most of the duel, they've been nothing more than an inanimate object. How is that fun for the person I've just fought? How was it fair? What was the point in them turning up to the fight?

 

I gave an example of how the stuns are ruining the game, just as I give one above. Whether that example was 100% accurate makes no difference. If the discussion was about tactics then his reply has merit. Since the discussion is about how there's an over abundance of CC and Stuns in the game his reply is an attempt to derail it. That's what I take exception to.

 

this example is a lie

using snap right before attacking? you just filled his resolve and broke your own cc, rest of a 'story' is a lie since resolve is filled and nor electrocute, nor spike, nor whirlwind will work (or lowslash if deception).

[funkiestj]

this example is a lie

using snap right before attacking? you just filled his resolve and broke your own cc, rest of a 'story' is a lie since resolve is filled and nor electrocute, nor spike, nor whirlwind will work (or lowslash if deception).

 

TANGENT: IMO, all complaining posts are lies unless accompanied by a video demonstrating the claim.

 

Anyone vaguely familiar with cognitive science knows that human memory is not particularly reliable. It is not just stupid people who's memory is unreliable, everyone's memory is unreliable. This is why a video capture tool like FRAPS is invaluable.

 

ON TOPIC: It seems to me there are a lot more complaints of the form "I hate stuns because I get stun locked and killed" and none along the lines of "I hate stuns because it makes it so easy to kill others that our team wins every single RWZ we play".

 

In short, I think the problem is 50% of the people playing are below average in skill and they regularly face teams that are much more skilled than them. They get facerolled and they blame stuns and the resolve system. The resolve system is not the problem and "L2P" is not the answer. Better match scheduling is the answer. A PUG that is 10th percentile in skill should not be facing a team that is 80th percentile in skill.

 

I claim that if stuns were removed from the game (and other aspects like voidstar door timers were re-tuned) the people complaining about stuns would be complaining about getting crushed.

Edited February 8, 2013 by funkiestj

[Ulfrik_Wulfgar]

this example is a lie

using snap right before attacking? you just filled his resolve and broke your own cc, rest of a 'story' is a lie since resolve is filled and nor electrocute, nor spike, nor whirlwind will work (or lowslash if deception).

 

When did the resolve thing change? I haven't used my sin for about three weeks now. I might be mistaken but I'm not telling lies. Again you attempt to derail the point. The point is the stuns, not the tactics.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Ulfrik_Wulfgar

[foxmob]

When did the resolve thing change? I haven't used my sin for about three weeks now. I might be mistaken but I'm not telling lies. Again you attempt to derail the point. The point is the stuns, not the tactics.

 

iirc, spike + electrocute = full resolve.

[DarthBloodloss]

Whats with all the fake scenarios that can never happen? I read the last couple pages and here is what people are claiming:

 

1) I got Mind Trapped, so I broke it right away (you have already failed in step 1, proving you dont know much about PvP or Mind Trap at least)

 

2) After I broke the Mind Trap, I got Mind Trapped again (see note above. if you don't break the first one....)

 

3) Duringthe second Mind Trap, I was stunned for 60 seconds while they proceeded to kill me (lies!)

 

4) When I came out of the 2nd Mind Trap, I got Electrocuted, then Knocked Down! (more lies due to resolve system)

 

5) Even if my example couldn't have happened, it doesn't matter! In my mind it happened so therefor its a valid scenario

 

---

Side note: When you toon is undergeared, you die twice as fast as other people. Meaning, its normal for you to die in the duration of a 4 seconds stun. Its not the stun's fault....its your gear thats the problem.

 

I play a Merc. We have very little escapes or defense tricks. But somehow, I never seem to get stunlocked to death. Maybe once every few days there will be 1 instance of two perfectly timed stuns, and 4 people bombing on me. In THAT case, then yes the stunlock killed me. But that is actually very rare.

[foxmob]

I play a Merc. We have very little escapes or defense tricks. But somehow, I never seem to get stunlocked to death. Maybe once every few days there will be 1 instance of two perfectly timed stuns, and 4 people bombing on me. In THAT case, then yes the stunlock killed me. But that is actually very rare.

 

tbh, you don't need to stunlock a merc. interrupts do most of his abils in...for any spec. although less so for assault.