Kaggath Tournament - Revan vs Xizor

[Warren-Stride]

Of course, and that limit is time. Xizor has loads of credits but he has to convert that cash into a fleet, whereas Revan has a fleet on hand.

 

This right here is the problem.

 

Allow me to explain the Black Sun to you.

 

 

They have an army,

The resources available to Black Sun rivaled those belonging to a large planetary army, including foot soldiers.

 

Thousands of troops,

The soldiers under its command number in the tens of thousands.

 

They have ships,

XTS would contract 300 ships to the Empire

 

And standing fleets,

Xizor's navy referred to the personal fleet of the Black Sun crime syndicate leader Dark Prince Xizor.

 

Capable of fighting 3-way battles,

Most notably, the fleet participated in the Battle over Coruscant,

 

With limitless credits,

They had a practically limitless amount of credits; more than enough to finance any operation they wished to complete.

 

And influence in all corners of the galaxy,

Its influence felt on every planet from the Core Worlds to the Outer Rim. Black Sun has existed for hundreds of years, and embedded itself in the very fiber of the galaxy.

 

With an Intelligence network,

Its information networks surpassed even the accuracy and scope of Imperial Intelligence.

 

Including access to underworld tech,

It was infamous for its involvement in piracy and smuggling. But smuggling was just the tip of the iceberg of the galaxy-wide organization. It was involved in every known type of illegal activity.

 

And an infamous leader.

Black Sun became so powerful that the Prince was considered to be surpassed in power only by Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader.

 

Does Xizor have a fleet on hand?

Yes. Look at his personal fleet on Coruscant. Note: PERSONAL. This is not even the main fleet of the Black Sun. It's collective forces and main fleet are elsewhere in the galaxy, but if Xizor's personal fleet is able to participate in a three-way battle with the Empire and Alliance, the other fleets the Black Sun has are just as powerful, if not more, seeing as Xizor was only allowed to have a certain amount of ships above Coruscant during the time of the Empire. To say that Xizor and the Black Sun are just some people with credits to buy things is horribly wrong.

[-Star-Scream-]

Xizor's main advantage is that he has a large amount of credits. But he's more than just bottomless pockets.

 

And that is the reason why IMHO these Kaggath's have now become pointless. They've just degenerated and now it's this. "Xizor wins because he hides and buys everything. The end." But then thats just my opinion i guess!

[Wolfninjajedi]

And that is the reason why IMHO these Kaggath's have now become pointless. They've just degenerated and now it's this. "Xizor wins because he hides and buys everything. The end." But then thats just my opinion i guess!

 

You could say the same for a few of the other characters too. But the fact is, Xizor is one of those guys that operates from the shadows so...ya.

[Beniboybling]

Like I said, it is likely Xizor has many fleets scattered across the Outer Rim - I never said he did not (be careful not to misquote me), but I doubt they matched the size of Revan's navy which engaged in a full scale war with the Republic and conquered a third of the galaxy. We also have to remember that as a crime syndicate, Black Sun likely has little focus on large armies and vast fleets, but rather small, mobile, specialized forces. Crime lords don't engage in full scale warfare. This is why I feel Xizor would have to buy up on forces to challenge Revan head on. But that is only if Xizor pursues that avenue of attack. And there's two things you said that I'd like to address:

XTS would contract 300 ships to the Empire

Such ships you speak of however, where cargo ships designed to transport materials, not battleships. Such as the AEG-77 Vigo.

Capable of fighting 3-way battles

Not quite, seeing as not only did Xizor lose that battle rather horribly, but the Imperial forces consisted of the Executor and a few Star Destroyers and the Rebellion only a handful of starfighters and freighters. Hardly a major force.

 

I'd definitely say that Xizor is more than equipped to wage war with Revan, but it would have to be a shadow war. Xizor is far better equipped and specialized to fight in the shadows, and not necessarily with navies and armies, rather than rush into battle and attempt to crush Revan.

 

So far the way I see this going down is that Xizor will be forced to 'abandon' his palace on Coruscant and retreat to his Outer Rim base, buying him time to strike a decisive blow at Revan or set some kind of trap. Given that he has an extensive intelligence network and no doubt a host of infiltrators, spies and assassins at his disposal, locating Revan and assassinating him would be the best avenue of assault - and could very well succeed e.g. Xizor locates Revan's flagship, infiltrates it with spies and informants, then uses that information to trap Revan and destroy him and his ship. IG-88 assassins droids would come in handy here. However I highly doubt Xizor has it in him to launch a frontal assault on Revan's forces and defeat/kill in battle.

[Wolfninjajedi]

You mean IG-86 droids Beni. If your giving Xizor IG-88, then ya...Revan is gonna be pretty screwed. But then IG-86 droids are pretty similar to IG-88, only difference is without the whole conquest of taking over the galaxy and having experimental AI.

[Beniboybling]

You mean IG-86 droids Beni. If your giving Xizor IG-88, then ya...Revan is gonna be pretty screwed. But then IG-86 droids are pretty similar to IG-88, only difference is without the whole conquest of taking over the galaxy and having experimental AI.

Oh yeah, meant IG-86.

[Aurbere]

Like I said, it is likely Xizor has many fleets scattered across the Outer Rim - I never said he did not (be careful not to misquote me), but I doubt they matched the size of Revan's navy which engaged in a full scale war with the Republic and conquered a third of the galaxy. We also have to remember that as a crime syndicate, Black Sun likely has little focus on large armies and vast fleets, but rather small, mobile, specialized forces. Crime lords don't engage in full scale warfare. This is why I feel Xizor would have to buy up on forces to challenge Revan head on. But that is only if Xizor pursues that avenue of attack. And there's two things you said that I'd like to address:

 

The war wasn't entirely 'full-scale'. The Republic was clearly weakened after having suffered from two major wars and then having two of the greatest of Jedi and a majority of their forces taken away. So really, Revan trashing the Republic isn't really that great of a feat.

 

Not quite, seeing as not only did Xizor lose that battle rather horribly, but the Imperial forces consisted of the Executor and a few Star Destroyers and the Rebellion only a handful of starfighters and freighters. Hardly a major force.

 

I'd definitely say that Xizor is more than equipped to wage war with Revan, but it would have to be a shadow war. Xizor is far better equipped and specialized to fight in the shadows, and not necessarily with navies and armies, rather than rush into battle and attempt to crush Revan.

 

 

I think Revan has one really 'sure-fire' way to win this: Assassins. During the Jedi Civil War, Revan deployed the assassins of Malachor (as well as his specially trained assassins) to capture and break Jedi. No doubt the more elite members of the Assassins could infiltrate Xizor's Palace and kill the Dark Prince.

 

That is, of course, if Xizor doesn't just abandon Coruscant.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Aurbere

[Wolfninjajedi]

The war wasn't entirely 'full-scale'. The Republic was clearly weakened after having suffered from two major wars and then having two of the greatest of Jedi and a majority of their forces taken away. So really, Revan trashing the Republic isn't really that great of a feat.

 

 

 

I think Revan has one really 'sure-fire' way to win this: Assassins. During the Jedi Civil War, Revan deployed the assassins of Malachor (as well as his specially trained assassins) to capture and break Jedi. No doubt the more elite members of the Assassins could infiltrate Xizor's Palace and kill the Dark Prince.

 

That is, of course, if Xizor doesn't just abandon Coruscant.

 

Though note, the assassins were trained to capture and break jedi, not to go against a Crime Lord which I know seems a much lesser extent then a jedi however the assassins would be unaware of what tricks Xizor would be able to pull off. Not to mention, the palace is HUGE it has 102 stories above ground and a dozen levels below it...so the assassins actually getting to Xizor is gonna be difficult with the defenses the palace holds...or rather should hold, I don't see Xizor being a moron and having it only defended by a few guards.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

Though note, the assassins were trained to capture and break jedi, not to go against a Crime Lord which I know seems a much lesser extent then a jedi however the assassins would be unaware of what tricks Xizor would be able to pull off. Not to mention, the palace is HUGE it has 102 stories above ground and a dozen levels below it...so the assassins actually getting to Xizor is gonna be difficult with the defenses the palace holds...or rather should hold, I don't see Xizor being a moron and having it only defended by a few guards.

 

True. I was going to edit in a few things discussing that (amongst other things to weaken that particular argument), but I decided to let someone else correct me.

[Warren-Stride]

We also have to remember that as a crime syndicate, Black Sun likely has little focus on large armies and vast fleets, but rather small, mobile, specialized forces. Crime lords don't engage in full scale warfare. This is why I feel Xizor would have to buy up on forces to challenge Revan head on. But that is only if Xizor pursues that avenue of attack.

 

I'd definitely say that Xizor is more than equipped to wage war with Revan, but it would have to be a shadow war. Xizor is far better equipped and specialized to fight in the shadows, and not necessarily with navies and armies, rather than rush into battle and attempt to crush Revan.

 

I agree that full-out head-on war wouldn't go so well. I was merely pointing out that Xizor does have fleets and does have troops, so those can delay Revan's forces while Xizor gathers resources.

 

The battle over Coruscant ended badly because Xizor was fired on by Vader, in the Exector, out of the blue. Before that the Black Sun were holding off Alliance forces. The purpose of pointing this out is to show that thge Black Sun can handle themselves in space battle.

 

EDIT: Anmd Xizor was lending the Empire 300 ships for his LEGITIMATE business. So obviously he has many more in his illegal armada.

 

 

I agree that the main course of attack will be shadow wars and hit-and-runs. The Black Sun was known for being dangerous pirates. What do pirates do? Hijack ships, ambush supply ships, raid worlds. Xizor will probably never meet Revan head on (and if he did he'd have a large fleet) but picking his forces apart with pirating tactics would buy Xiszor time and weaken Revan's army.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Canino]

I think we need to start thinking endgame. Reven will push for it, as it would be easier for him to kill Xizor in a duel. That said, Xizor is intuitive and calculating. Maybe a sabotage-Guri-dirty-bomb? Sacrifices and arrangements could be made....

 

I'm not contributing to this debate much, and as to why, well, to simply put it- Traya will die. Quickly. That is all.

[Warren-Stride]

I'm not contributing to this debate much, and as to why, well, to simply put it- Traya will die. Quickly. That is all.

 

She's blind and can't sense droids with the Force..... Oh, and G0-T0 has HK-50s? Heh.

 

Good luck Traya.

[Wolfninjajedi]

She's blind and can't sense droids with the Force..... Oh, and G0-T0 has HK-50s? Heh.

 

Good luck Traya.

 

Can still sense danger though, how fast she can react however is another story being she isn't really a warrior.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[AlexDougherty]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the first thing both Revan and Xizor do is break the rules. So they would hire allies ignoring the rules of the tournament, and if things got bad they might even fake their deaths so as to catch the others off guard later on.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the first thing both Revan and Xizor do is break the rules. So they would hire allies ignoring the rules of the tournament, and if things got bad they might even fake their deaths so as to catch the others off guard later on.

 

The rules can't be broken...and besides, what allies? There are no other big factions here, other then the two that are fighting.

[Canino]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the first thing both Revan and Xizor do is break the rules. So they would hire allies ignoring the rules of the tournament, and if things got bad they might even fake their deaths so as to catch the others off guard later on.

 

With hiring, the rule is that you can only hire GENERAL people. That would be just plain mercs, assassins, and things of the like. As soon as it becomes "he/she would hire[iNSERT MERC HERE] and they were from [iNSERT BIG NAME] and have been trained in [WHATEVER-I think/hope you get the point]." Why? Because all big name groups or people are gone/ they don't exist, unless Beni allows them.

[bryancuster]

Though note, the assassins were trained to capture and break jedi, not to go against a Crime Lord which I know seems a much lesser extent then a jedi however the assassins would be unaware of what tricks Xizor would be able to pull off. Not to mention, the palace is HUGE it has 102 stories above ground and a dozen levels below it...so the assassins actually getting to Xizor is gonna be difficult with the defenses the palace holds...or rather should hold, I don't see Xizor being a moron and having it only defended by a few guards.

 

Revan was an exemplary strategist and a planner he wouldnt send his assassins in unprepared for what they were facing.

[Canino]

Revan was an exemplary strategist and a planner he wouldnt send his assassins in unprepared for what they were facing.

 

Which takes time, and only allows Xizor to prepare more, and Xizor's intelligence network would notify him of the training, and Xizor would adapt as best he could.

[AlexDougherty]

With hiring, the rule is that you can only hire GENERAL people. That would be just plain mercs, assassins, and things of the like. As soon as it becomes "he/she would hire[iNSERT MERC HERE] and they were from [iNSERT BIG NAME] and have been trained in [WHATEVER-I think/hope you get the point]." Why? Because all big name groups or people are gone/ they don't exist, unless Beni allows them.

 

I was kind of figuring Revan would recruit every Mandalorean out there, since they are the best mercenaries in the Star Wars universe and already an army nearly as big as his own, and maybe Goto's network of spies (not necessarily G0T0 himself) for sneaky intelligence.

 

Xizor would probably try to use the Hutts and any other criminal organisation you can thik of.

Edited February 9, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Canino]

I was kind of figuring him hiring every Mandalorean out there, since they are the best mercenaries in the Star Wars universe and already an army nearly as big as his own, and maybe Goto's network of spies (not necessarily G0T0 himself) for sneaky intelligence.

 

Well Xizor already has one of, if not the biggest intelligence network in the galaxy. It rivaled Imperial Intelligence and sometimes surpassed it. And by going into specifics, Mandolorians, it breaks the rules. He could hire mercs, but we don't know how good they are- thats part of the debate. I personally rank all mercs decently, but still nothing major.

 

EDIT: You edited as I posted, so I couldn't catch it. Hutts don't exist technically in the Kaggaths, unless we are talking about a planet they controlled or something.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Canino

[GarfieldJL]

The winner of this is the individual that can force their opponent to play on their terms. If Xizor can turn this into a long drawn out shadow game, then Revan is at a disadvantage.

 

If Revan can turn this into a straight up military fight, a duel, etc., then Revan probably has this.

 

However that isn't to say that in a shadow game, that Xizor is a sure winner either.

 

HK-47 was supposedly built by Revan right. So, what's to stop Revan from building an HK-48?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Alright so...what else is there to go over here? I mean really Xizor has an advantage in terms of, he doesn't have a regular military in the sense that it is like the Republic that Revan fought. While Xizor might not have force users, he makes up for that in dangerous/illegal technology that isn't the norm of what Revan and his troops would see in everyday conflict.

 

Not to mention, Xizor doesn't really need to have open fighting...he can given enough time but sabotage, espionage and the like is more his fortay. Now does that mean he wins? Well...not entirely, however given that he has access to Venator class star destroyers and the like...he could outfit with them with

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mass-driver_cannon

 

Those things ignore shields being its not an energy blast, its kinetic and the ammunition varies making it a versatile weapon.

===

On ground Xizor could outfit his men(or just some of them) with

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Disruptor_rifle

 

These rifles completely disintergrate their targets at a molecular level(meaning one shot, your pretty much done for) and can bypass personal energy shields. I would imagine though, Xizor just giving his assassin droids(IG-86) and top marksmen these rifles though, in which can do some serious damage.

==

 

Just throwing out some things, just because Xizor doesn't have a regular military like the Republic or Sith or Empire doesn't mean that he is out of the game entirely.

 

Actually given that the Underworld is a big part of the galaxy, and Xizor controlled the most powerful underworld organization. He literally controlled part of the galaxy or rather all of it....in terms of the Underworld.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

We have to consider though that being spread out as opposed to having a tightly collected empire, puts Xizor at a disadvantage. Xizor can hide in an Outer Rim base, or hunker down on Coruscant. But as soon as Revan discovers his location, he can maneuver his forces directly to that location, and isolate, because Xizor has no 'territory' to speak of to act as some kind of buffer zone. Whereas if he wanted to Revan could hunker down on say Korriban, and Xizor would find it harder to get to him (via a military assault). As an additional point, if Xizor fails to kill Revan first time, Revan may very well retreat to Korriban for more security.

 

In this way Xizor is racing against time, lets say he escapes Coruscant and flees to Mustafar. Its only a matter of time before Revan tracks him down and surrounds him, and if Revan discovers the location of all Xizor's Black Sun bases, Xizor will quickly run out of places to hide.

 

Just something that should be considered.

[Wolfninjajedi]

We have to consider though that being spread out as opposed to having a tightly collected empire, puts Xizor at a disadvantage. Xizor can hide in an Outer Rim base, or hunker down on Coruscant. But as soon as Revan discovers his location, he can maneuver his forces directly to that location, and isolate, because Xizor has no 'territory' to speak of to act as some kind of buffer zone. Whereas if he wanted to Revan could hunker down on say Korriban, and Xizor would find it harder to get to him (via a military assault). As an additional point, if Xizor fails to kill Revan first time, Revan may very well retreat to Korriban for more security.

 

In this way Xizor is racing against time, lets say he escapes Coruscant and flees to Mustafar. Its only a matter of time before Revan tracks him down and surrounds him, and if Revan discovers the location of all Xizor's Black Sun bases, Xizor will quickly run out of places to hide.

 

Just something that should be considered.

 

Point, but he does have a sizeable fleet over Coruscant(or rather in this case since the Empire isn't around he could infact have a much bigger fleet since the Empire had him limit his fleet to a certain size.) In terms of this battle here, size doesn't really mean anything given Xizor has tech at his disposal to do some damage to Revan's forces regardless of how big it is. If Xizor outfits his Venator SD's with mass driver cannons(which he probably would) then the shields that Revan's ships have, essentially mean diddly squat being that would be punched right through.

 

Now would this mean that if Revan attacked Courscant with his fleet, the fleet would lose? Well...not entirely, but its possible. However...where is Revan's fleet at, at the start? Depending on where it is, then Revan's fleet is gonna take time in getting to Courscant which gives Xizor time to get a fleet assembled in the surrounding planets that are close by.

[Beniboybling]

Point, but he does have a sizeable fleet over Coruscant(or rather in this case since the Empire isn't around he could infact have a much bigger fleet since the Empire had him limit his fleet to a certain size.) In terms of this battle here, size doesn't really mean anything given Xizor has tech at his disposal to do some damage to Revan's forces regardless of how big it is. If Xizor outfits his Venator SD's with mass driver cannons(which he probably would) then the shields that Revan's ships have, essentially mean diddly squat being that would be punched right through.

 

Now would this mean that if Revan attacked Courscant with his fleet, the fleet would lose? Well...not entirely, but its possible. However...where is Revan's fleet at, at the start? Depending on where it is, then Revan's fleet is gonna take time in getting to Courscant which gives Xizor time to get a fleet assembled in the surrounding planets that are close by.

This is just it though, you forget it's not Revan's 'fleet' - it's Revan's navy. He has a whole host of ships as his disposal scattered across the Mid and Outer Rim. So really it doesn't matter how long a single fleet will take to arrive (roughly 4 days) another will follow after that, and another. All the while the entire Core is surrounded, no more reinforcements for Xizor. Defeat is inevitable, escape is the only option.