Threat ISSUE (guardian)

[Onallion]

I'm full dreadguard 24% def 50 shield 50 absorb about 1700 strength with 18+ power augments on almost all my items I was hoping that alongside sentinels (guarded) they wouldn't pull aggro between taunts, however it doesn't feel solid even with a flushed out rotation that fits in the most economic and threat generating abilities it can drop unexpectedly I've made almost no progress changing augments or any variant.

 

Compared to what I could achieve as far as total HP looking at threat mechanics those being DPS = threat i statted somewhat balanced i have unbuffed about 26-27k health but i was really hoping for a real tank not some dps statted tank simply to be comparable to sentinels offensive threat abilities.

 

Before the elitists jump in with "If you're losing threat in dreadguard" Let me preface by saying i have spent weeks flushing out rotations and taunting at the most opportune times to keep aggro on me.

I'm not LOSING aggro all the time but is this game simply a taunt spam? does it even matter what DPS i put out because what i expected my aggro to be with dreadguard is remarkably unsatisfying.

 

Almost all bosses i'm fine but stormcaller for instance where you have to rotate the turret you lose a few seconds of dps now that might not seem a lot but without an area taunt and then a saved single for something else you can lose aggro if dps isn't switched on.

 

TL:DR?

 

Tanking is unsatisfying for me even with a fully endgame geared tank because threat is dumb.

 

 

 

Note to developers

 

HP = Threat

Please add a buff to threat based on overall HP so that TANKS can actually be tanks and not dps stat to hold aggro in between taunt spamming.

Or Increase stance threat

 

 

Don't sit around and think about it just add this in please don't float it past management because you will be moved into working on some terrible warzone because you know your engine can't handle mass pvp.

please just do it.

 

You're talking about a mechanics issue, regarding Stormcaller at least. If you move behind the DPS for them to absorb double destruction it stands to reason you will lose aggro if the DPS are continuing to pound on it while you're standing doing nothing or moving back to position. I always use an AOE taunt after that, and I'm a vanguard with no threat problems at all.

[Aelther]

HP = Threat

Please add a buff to threat based on overall HP so that TANKS can actually be tanks and not dps stat to hold aggro in between taunt spamming.

Or Increase stance threat

 

While I agree that Guardian threat is somewhat lacking, I cannot agree with your "HP = Threat" statement. I'm an avoidance tank, I don't stack endurance, I stack defence. Your mechanics would most likely lower my threat even more. Instead of a fancy "HP = Threat" thing they could simply boost up the threat bonus gained by Soresu Form. It would be much easier to code it too.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Aelther

[Toweleeeie]

Yep and im in Full 61 gear with 27 hilt and armoring in MH and Off. I was having trouble on storm just yesterday. Guardian/Juggs need a fix for sure.

 

Im a Sentinel as my main and my Vanguard and Shadow tanks have little issues holding aggro from me. We are running and completing TFB HM and EC NiM

Edited February 4, 2013 by Toweleeeie

[Fornix]

I'm full dreadguard 24% def 50 shield 50 absorb about 1700 strength with 18+ power augments on almost all my items I was hoping that alongside sentinels (guarded) they wouldn't pull aggro between taunts, however it doesn't feel solid even with a flushed out rotation that fits in the most economic and threat generating abilities it can drop unexpectedly I've made almost no progress changing augments or any variant.

 

As a Jugg tank I'd say let them pull.

 

The thing is, taunt works by exponentially increasing over the current highest threat. So imagine the following situation. If the top 2 in threat look like:

 

1 - Tank - 10000

2 - DPS - 9500

 

And you taunt, gain e.g. 20 % (fictive figure) you go up to 12000 threat.

 

However, if the TPS rate of the DPS as he started out burning is higher, he may still catch up to you during that period.

 

If you let him out aggro you first, e.g. he hits 1000 aggro per hit, you do 800 the next hits would be:

 

1 - Tank - 10800

2 - DPS - 10500

 

1 - Tank - 11600

2 - DPS - 11500

 

1 - DPS - 12500

2 - Tank - 12400

 

Now you see the mob twitch, you instantly hit taunt and you jump from 12400 to 15000.

 

Rather than a 2k gain you made a 2.6k gain (remember, all fictive figures).

 

You can do this twice on firebrand and stormcaller. Just as first aggro loss use your single target taunt, then use the area taunt. Single target taunt is available again upon swap. After the swap be sure to throw in one more single target taunt once it gets off cooldown and beyond that, you don't quite have to worry about it much more. You may opt to throw in an additional single target taunt during the pillar phase, but that's all what's needed.

 

The swapping between tanks makes the threat increase exponentially. More than what a DPS will ever be able to outhit.

[Agidius]

Basically, I have the same problem

 

Juggernaut tank: 31.4% def, 51.5% shield and absorb @ 27K HP

 

They nerfed the Jugg tank's dps so hard that even if the tanking stance does double our threat it is still very very weak. The new gear only improves survivability, almost nothing is improved in the threat generation. Second thing that gimps us is the ************ accuracy, a lot of our attacks are white, if i miss early on puff my aggro is gone no matter what. In no way will i use Accuracy as a tank, when i need everything to defensive stats, they do massive damage on me even this way. I'm tanking since early access with my toon, I know all the skills by heart, i stay in ranged distance (3-4 m) and still for example on TFB HM on the tentacles i have to use taunts in my rotations to prevent aggro losing.

I measured my dps it's roughly 650-680!! if we double this in terms of threat it's way less then the 2000 what the dps do. (i know I have 2 abilities which generate 150% threat but still, you get my meaning, this doesn't add so much to it)

 

SO BW

 

Please fix already the jugg / guardian tanks. We have the lowest dps and lowest threat generation because of this, we have 0 bonuses to armor, 0 bonus to Endurance compared to the other 2 tanks and I could go on with this easily. I simply don't get it why did you place the useful tanking abilities on the melee tree, whose brilliant idea was it (unremitting and the 4% DR increase) and totally useless stuff on the tanking tree.

 

It's Pve not PVP, you seem to care only about pvp in terms of balance, why? What harm could it cause if they we're tanks with skills in the tank tree insted of hybrids who are still gimped.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Agidius

[IrishTR]

When I see the 30/50/50 people complaining of threat issues Im pretty certain those are full 31 Immortal Juggs. And yes they have a problem in where it requires them to work much harder than the other two tanks have to, to maintain threat. And generally lose it.

 

Most Hybrids 17/22/2 spec's have less of a threat issue because they are doing more DPS (to include more mitigation - not related to threat but better than Immortal). I personally leveled as a 31 Immortal Jugg and tanked in the early days of EV being the only Op. Even back then always felt like I had to be ontop of my game to maintain. Then the light bulb came on when someone showed me the way thru the hybrid. Do I think we as tanks should have to do this??? No... Is it right? Nope, Will EA fix it??? Doubtful they seem to think they fixed it the last time the buffed the "Threat Gen" of Full Immortal... In reality it just made things worse, and slightly improved a small AoE threat gen.

 

I have been tanking as Hybrid now since Summer 2012 (dont recall when I actually made the switch) but I instantly noticed the improved usefulness and never looked back, I constantly watch Immortals who come tank and see the same things happening to me prior. The minute I help them setup the Hybrid its smooth sailing from Immortal. That doesn't mean they get to kick back and relax they still have to be on point where the other 2 classes have a slightly easier time maintaining said threat (due to their DPS being 100-200dps higher on average than an equally equipped Jugg)

 

But as that stands, we have been perfectly capable of completing all content in game currently (PVE) with a Jugg Tank (myself) to include other Jugg Tanks. But we generally operate with mixed tanks, with the occasional both being Juggs/Sins/PTs. Everything is achievable, tactics may need adjusted to accommodate but its all doable.

 

So yes I can validate some of your complaints (the Immortal 31 tree needs to get a proper re-tooling) Perhaps incorporate the Vengeance talents that we're enjoying (4% Across the board flat damage reduction vs bogus 4% shield chance (keyword CHANCE!).

 

But I as said if others can complete the same content on their Juggs I think some of it may lie within the operator skill and gear combo. Usually skill over the gear to a degree as well.

 

All we can do is hope Bioware makes some legitimate and effective changes - I won't be holding my breath though so get used to Hybrid

[LordSkyKnight]

When I see the 30/50/50 people complaining of threat issues Im pretty certain those are full 31 Immortal Juggs. (snip....)

 

Do you have a link to your hybrid build? As I near 50 on my Guardian tank that I spec full 31 defense, I am also starting to have a lot of issues keeping threat off of dps classes myself.

[Ilysanth]

I too would be interested in your hybrid build. I have a Defense 31 Guardian and haven't had issues with threat until HM EC with my commandos going balls to the walls on Stormcaller.

[Agidius]

Don't expect miracles from the Hybrid build imo. I've tried it the snap threat is crap (Backhand and Crushing Blow are at least good for this) and the Rage generation is gimped as well. But who knows maybe it will work for you people

[IrishTR]

Here is what I use currently for gear on that toon to include the build at AMR. You can see the skill tree listed as 17/22/2, also I've gotten all the relevant Datacrons. If you click the Wishlist you will also see my full 63 (aspiring to get build). I've got all 3 tanks and all 3 healers so I see all aspects. I enjoy my Jugg it was my first tank call me crazy I know, but I enjoy the challenge it and the play style presents because its not for everyone IMO gotta be dedicated lol.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/d36c7c7a-ae6b-4367-b0ca-9c0e27092027

 

Good luck and if your on JC feel free to message me.

[IrishTR]

Don't expect miracles from the Hybrid build imo. I've tried it the snap threat is crap (Backhand and Crushing Blow are at least good for this) and the Rage generation is gimped as well. But who knows maybe it will work for you people

 

The one thing I will agree with you is the Rage Generation is not the same but it also is close management so if you just maintain the rotation you should have no rage issues whatsoever. I would use backhand and crushing blow and get pulled off of for days.

 

I'm at work so I'm not good for memory but I'll try and lookup the skill and post the opener/rotation for the hybrid. Dont forget better mitigation and better DPS ;P wins over the 2 fake skills in Immortal that are suppose to be high threat...

[MillionsKNives]

The one thing I will agree with you is the Rage Generation is not the same but it also is close management so if you just maintain the rotation you should have no rage issues whatsoever. I would use backhand and crushing blow and get pulled off of for days.

 

I'm at work so I'm not good for memory but I'll try and lookup the skill and post the opener/rotation for the hybrid. Dont forget better mitigation and better DPS ;P wins over the 2 fake skills in Immortal that are suppose to be high threat...

 

I've currently only got two tanks, an Assassin and a Juggernaut. Leveling the Juggernaut after my Assassin I was surprised at how much less effective the two high threat abilities are on the Juggernaut. Wither and Discharge are both on a low cooldown, 7.5 and 15 second respectively. Whereas for the juggernaut Crushing Blow is on a 15s cooldown, which is the same as Discharge, though it requires 5 stacks to be useful as AOE; but the real problem is that Backhand is on a 60s timer. What good is a high threat ability if it's just a long cooldown stun?

Edited February 4, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[Kil-Gorbane]

Hybrid Jugg/Guard.

This is my (18/23/0) build.

 

- You get +3% def from Retaliation/Riposte, and about 3-4k absorbed damage from Force Scream/Blade Storm + set bonus (this is still debated which equations blade storm uses, but it is believed 3-4k absorbed).

- Use Revenge/Courage on Force Scream/Blade Storm and always use when up: Force Scream/Blade Storm, Smash/Force Sweep, Sundering Assualt/Sundering Strike, Ravage/Master Strike. If you are doing it right all those attacks will be free (~1 Rage for Force Scream).

- Then use extra Rage/Focus on Sweeping Slash (even if 1 target), this will help you build up threat. (Obviously use Rage on under 30% ability - Viscious Throw?).

- Never start off with a taunt, try and get your rotation so you only have to taunt when DPS do high burst and pull off you (and obviously taunt on tank swaps).

 

My Guardian is in all 63's (still need implants and earpieces tho) and has high End Armorings/Mods but high Stat Enhancements (High Shield). End result with exo fortitude stim: 27k HP, 54% armor, 33 Def, 48.5 Shield, 48 Abosrb.

 

(I've cleared 3/4 NiM EC)

Edited February 4, 2013 by Kil-Gorbane

[IrishTR]

Ok this is easier to explain vocally than typed because there are variables (you'll know what/when if your a good Jugg) but here goes. Example of a boss fight in hybrid spec I use. Key thing to remember as mentioned your Rage is slow generated and you have to keep more of an eye on your abilities but you should never be in trouble or below to where you can't fire off key shots like Force Scream/Retaliate/Vicious Throw (when below 30% on boss)

 

OPEN:

Saber Throw

Force Charge

Force Scream

Smash

Retaliate (if up at any point)

Sunder Armor x3

Ravage

 

MAINTAIN:

Sunder Armor (to keep 5 stacks of debuff and to build rage as necessary off cooldown)

Assault (another rage builder if Sunder is off, use as needed)

Smash (keep it on cooldown good damage and threat creator this is free!)

Retaliate - (when procs so get added Defense)

Force Scream - (time it right to avoid big hits or just keep it on cooldown, but I try to keep it as an anticipation defense as much as I can)

Vicious Slash - As Rage permits occasionally

 

That's the basics... Now obviously you'll find when/where to work in some others like your cooldowns/taunts. The only time I would call a hairy situation is generally on the opening fights where I might have to taunt just to place myself above the pack after opener is done and dps went full tilt requiring me to hit the taunt. But after that its usually smooth sailing just remember to keep proactive with your rotations and react as necessary which shouldn't happen unless your DPS is hitting some serious CRIT streaks and not dumping threat when they should be to work as that team effort.

 

Keep in mind also its not just you out there your DPS has to be smart with their threat dumps and you with your guards/taunts.

 

Our general raid makeup is as follows. This isn't an all the time thing either, as we're a vary dynamic group with several capable alts that we constantly swap roles/positions to keep people from getting stale/bored with a particular role/no shows etc.

 

Jugg Tank

Sin Tank

Sorc Heal x 2 or Sorc Heal and Merc/Op

2 Marauders or 1 Mara 1 PT (Guards generally are on our MDPS folks but adjust as necessary to your group makeup)

2 Mercs or 1 Merc 1 Sniper

Edited February 4, 2013 by IrishTR

[IrishTR]

I've currently only got two tanks, an Assassin and a Juggernaut. Leveling the Juggernaut after my Assassin I was surprised at how must less effective the two high threat abilities are on the Juggernaut. Wither and Discharge are both on a low cooldown, 7.5 and 15 second respectively. Whereas for the juggernaut Crushing Blow is on a 15s cooldown, which is the same as Discharge, though it requires 5 stacks to be useful as AOE; but the real problem is that Backhand is on a 60s timer. What good is a high threat ability if it's just a long cooldown stun?

 

Exactly why its not a viable tank strat... Its not of constant utility like the hybrid is. Like I said I agree that 31 Immortal Juggs need work, but right now the viable option or call it our own fix... Go Hybrid (its free to respec if your a payer).

[Kil-Gorbane]

OPEN:

Saber Throw

Force Charge

Force Scream

Smash

Retaliate (if up at any point)

Sunder Armor x3

Ravage

 

Eh, I disagree. Try this instead:

Saber Throw

Force Charge

Sunder Armor

Smash

Force Scream

Retaliate (whenever up)

Ravage

(Always use Sunder Armor, Smash, Retaliate, Ravage, Force Scream when up)

Spam Sweeping Slash as the filler

 

By switching the smash earlier you A: build more threat and B: add sunder armor earlier which then makes your force scream do more damage.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Kil-Gorbane

[IrishTR]

Hybrid Jugg/Guard.

This is my (18/23/0) build.

 

- You get +3% def from Retaliation/Riposte, and about 3-4k absorbed damage from Force Scream/Blade Storm + set bonus (this is still debated which equations blade storm uses, but it is believed 3-4k absorbed).

- Use Revenge/Courage on Force Scream/Blade Storm and always use when up: Force Scream/Blade Storm, Smash/Force Sweep, Sundering Assualt/Sundering Strike, Ravage/Master Strike. If you are doing it right all those attacks will be free (~1 Rage for Force Scream).

- Then use extra Rage/Focus on Sweeping Slash (even if 1 target), this will help you build up threat. (Obviously use Rage on under 30% ability - Viscious Throw?).

- Never start off with a taunt, try and get your rotation so you only have to taunt when DPS do high burst and pull off you (and obviously taunt on tank swaps).

 

My Guardian is in all 63's (still need implants and earpieces tho) and has high End Armorings/Mods but high Stat Enhancements (High Shield). End result with exo fortitude stim: 27k HP, 54% armor, 33 Def, 48.5 Shield, 48 Abosrb.

 

(I've cleared 3/4 NiM EC)

 

 

Same here we are 3/4 NiM EC still progressing Kephess should be this week perhaps 1 more and we'll be good to go (and I'm not even full 63s on that tank as you can see) Another thing I'm avid user of the SWTOR Calculator/Tank Spreadsheets to optimize stat weight ratios appropriately. %s mean nothing to me anymore its all about the ratings

[Kil-Gorbane]

Same here we are 3/4 NiM EC still progressing Kephess should be this week perhaps 1 more and we'll be good to go (and I'm not even full 63s on that tank as you can see) Another thing I'm avid user of the SWTOR Calculator/Tank Spreadsheets to optimize stat weight ratios appropriately. %s mean nothing to me anymore its all about the ratings

 

This was helpful Tank Stats

[IrishTR]

Eh, I disagree. Try this instead:

Saber Throw

Force Charge

Sunder Armor

Smash

Force Scream

Retaliate (whenever up)

Ravage

(Always use Sunder Armor, Smash, Retaliate, Ravage, Force Scream when up)

Spam Sweeping Slash as the filler

 

By switching the smash earlier you A: build more threat and B: add sunder armor earlier which then makes your force scream do more damage.

 

Sweeping slash is more AoE attack with less damage and bigger rage spender not needed on a boss fight especially as filler during an opener.

 

I prefer to hit smash before going into sunder armors because its a bigger hit and higher threat on the opener. But I don't doubt either way would be bad again to each his own I suppose if its working for you (obviously is).

[IrishTR]

This was helpful Tank Stats

 

Google SWTOR Tanking Calculator, 2nd option on search hit, download, run select Immortal Jugg from preset, then change the following info under the Bonus% fields to these numbers for Hybrids.

 

Damage Reduction 10, Defense Chance 14, Shield Chance 20, Shield Absorption 20.

Edited February 4, 2013 by IrishTR

[Pytviper]

I'm sorry taunting isn't tanking. If taunting was tanking in this game the other 2 class would have to do it to to keep threat.

 

My Juggy is the only one of my 3 tanks (all equally geared) I have any threat issue with. The whole taunt tanking that people are talking about is a work around for a broken spec.

[Marb]

If going hybrid solves your threat issues, then you were never playing Immortal properly. The actual TPS difference between immortal and hybrid is very small. Certainly not large enough to go from rolling taunts to never having to taunt after the opener.

 

The hybrid is about giving up easier rage management and aoe threat for increased survivability. This is a fair trade for most, as a skilled player can work around the limitations of the spec, but hybrid is not the solution to the guardian threat issue.

[IrishTR]

If going hybrid solves your threat issues, then you were never playing Immortal properly. The actual TPS difference between immortal and hybrid is very small. Certainly not large enough to go from rolling taunts to never having to taunt after the opener.

 

The hybrid is about giving up easier rage management and aoe threat for increased survivability. This is a fair trade for most, as a skilled player can work around the limitations of the spec, but hybrid is not the solution to the guardian threat issue.

 

It is IMO until Bioware adjusts Immortal accordingly. And yes the difference between the two is more than just very small... Immortal TPS and DPS is subpar to the Hybrids (as mentioned earlier do I think its right? of course not but it is what is and I just work with the cards we're being dealt right now).

 

And I played Immortal just like everyone else to its fullest from day 1 to post change in what was it 1.2? Even the gurus at MMO Mechanics discredited it too, so they must all never played it right either. You sir must be the diamond in the ruff who gets it right, so my compliments to you.

[LarryRow]

Guardians are fine, people. They just take a little work to squeeze out maximum threat. The key is to get a feel for how many attacks you can use before you need to boost your threat with a taunt. (Don't wait too long or it will be on cooldown when you need it for a swap). Use your opening burst rotation, then hit combat focus and burst some more. Use taunt when you feel your dps is slowing down. If you're fighting, say, Karagga, go nuts with taunts, there is no swapping. Toth and Zorn? Something is really wrong here if you need two taunts before the first leap.

 

Meanwhile, your dps need to give you a couple hits head start. They need to use their aggro drop immediately after their initial burst. The tank should be guarding whoever doesn't have an aggro drop (like a Vanguard), otherwise the highest dps.

 

Hybrid vs. Full Defense is an interesting question. Hybrid does possess more mitigation (more frequent blade barrier, commanding awe) and more threat with overhead slash. Full Defense's main advantage is better armor debuffing, which will help your dps make the enrage timers.

 

I'll say again: I think Guardians do just fine when played, geared, and specced properly. However, I completely agree that it's pretty lame our tanking tree is considered sub-optimal. That tree really needs to be reworked so that going full defense is the clear winner for all PvE Guardian tanking.

Edited February 4, 2013 by LarryRow

[OrionSol]

No, many times more than not, my Sage has more HP than people I run GPP Finder HM with