Expertise: Max or 1200 - Debate has ended

[thatPERSON]

i think what you guys are forgetting is the actual player behind the character.... if i have 1200 exp and another person has max that doesnt mean he is gonna beat me. in fact ive humiliated full EWH players with max exp and got called a cheater cause they were under the preconceived notion that since they have the best of the best they would wipe me out. im tired of seeing these threads cause what it boils down to is that if im better than you i will beat you regardless of stats... Edited February 3, 2013 by thatPERSON

[Smashbrother]

You jelly?

 

In other news, where you said " we've been saying since the current expertise system went live / went to PTS that the difference is marginal." is actually a lie. You have said nothing of the sort. I've checked your entire post/reply history from before and after 1.2 went live. In fact, you haven't said or done much of anything intelligent except troll this post.

 

In fact if you look at your post history, the entirety of it is you being condescending to other people. I'm not going to say I haven't done anything like that, you'll probably find I'm a turd a lot, but on the odd occasion I post meaningful information.

 

It's true though. People have been testing this stuff for months. I myself posted about this crap in another thread weeks ago, and pretty much came to the conclusion that max is better than 1200 ish if you're getting healed for at least 10k during the fight.

 

If there are no heals, the differences are a wash between the two.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Smashbrother

[Carter_Mathis]

i think what you guys are forgetting is the actual player behind the character.... if i have 1200 exp and another person has max that doesnt mean he is gonna beat me. in fact ive humiliated full EWH players with max exp and got called a cheater cause they were under the preconceived notion that since they have the best of the best they would wipe me out. im tired of seeing these threads cause what it boils down to is that if im better than you i will beat you regardless of stats...

 

meh, I see this more as a "Certain classes should get full expertise statement." If the OP went with 1309 expertise instead of 1208, he would've hit the other person for less, but he also would've been hit for less. This basically means that any class that has cooldowns or a playstyle that mitigates damage rather than avoids it would benefit from full expertise gear.

ex. My Scrapper Scoundrel is meant to harass off nodes and get solo kills, and has defensive cooldowns to avoid damage rather than mitigate it (Dodge, stuns, and Vanish). Due to my class setup, I benefit from lower expertise so I can burn a target as quickly as possible and not sacrifice much survivability.

ex. Vanguards have low mobility and cooldowns to mitigate damage (Adrenaline Rush/Reactive Shield) with little ability to avoid damage. Because of their class setup, it would be beneficial to stack expertise IF they are going to be taking much damage.

Unless you are going to claim to be the best player in TOR, then a skill argument is invalid

[EtiMos]

My claim, which I posted some initial testing to support, is the following:

 

1. Against a player with some number for expertise (this number doesn't matter, pick whatever number you want) you will do slightly more damage (~2%) if you're at 1214 expertise compared to 1296 expertise at a cost of 0.7% damage reduction from expertise.

 

 

 

You still haven't figured out how expertise works.IF the enemy has 1214 then yes by replacing power with expertise (instead of1296) will give you 2% more dmg but IF the enemy has 1296 expertise and you have 1214 (replacing the gap with power) not only you won't do more dmg but actually you will do less.

 

DON'T only look at your expertise but keep in mind the expertise of the target.

Edited February 3, 2013 by EtiMos

[cashogy_reborn]

0.7% increase in damage.

 

less than 1% difference between 1214 and 1396. no tangible difference.

 

 

and claiming that healers will notice greater heals on you with max expertise is laughable. talk about a placebo affect.

 

1214 expertise healing bonus -> 12.67%

1396 expertise healing bonus -> 14.04%

 

difference = 1.37%

 

again, this is not going to be a tangible difference. and that is assuming that the expertise on the target is used to determine heal bonus, and not the expertise on the actual healer.

[Mharz]

You still haven't figured out how expertise works.IF the enemy has 1214 then yes by replacing power with expertise (instead of1296) will give you 2% more dmg but IF the enemy has 1296 expertise and you have 1214 (replacing the gap with power) not only you won't do more dmg but actually you will do less.

 

DON'T only look at your expertise but keep in mind the expertise of the target.

 

Actually I understand EXACTLY how expertise works.

 

I agree with you on the point that if you reduce your expertise you will do less damage because you'll have less bonus damage from expertise.

 

What I also state, which I think you didn't understand from my post, is that if you replace that Expertise with Power (in this example) that you will do a little more damage from the gain you realize from power.

 

What I've found is that the difference is VERY minor at current values for Expertise and Power on PvP gear.

[darthruff]

Maybe I'm wrong but wasn't it always cap it at 1236 expertise then go stats.. not 1200?

[Schil]

0.7% increase in damage.

 

less than 1% difference between 1214 and 1396. no tangible difference.

 

 

and claiming that healers will notice greater heals on you with max expertise is laughable. talk about a placebo affect.

 

1214 expertise healing bonus -> 12.67%

1396 expertise healing bonus -> 14.04%

 

difference = 1.37%

 

again, this is not going to be a tangible difference. and that is assuming that the expertise on the target is used to determine heal bonus, and not the expertise on the actual healer.

 

expertise reflects healing done not received. healing someone for 1200 expertise and 500 expertise you heal the same amount.

[cashogy_reborn]

expertise reflects healing done not received. healing someone for 1200 expertise and 500 expertise you heal the same amount.

 

that is what i figured. which means that the final argument that wearing 1396 expertise vs 1214 expertise somehow increases the healing you receive, is incorrect.

Edited February 3, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[Mookind]

You guys aren't even breaking down the differences between changing out crystals (1:1 ratio) and comparing it to armorings/hilts which obviously aren't an even trade.

 

Not to mention DR comes into play.

 

The idea that rocking 2 expertise crystals to bring you up too 1400 exp is a good idea on a dps is a joke. Instead of dropping them both for power. 1 to 1 ratio.......

 

Then we move on to armorings and barrels/hilts. I do these second becuase the trade is not as good. So you should definitely put these up against the "stronger" point in the Expertise DR.

 

Since you both took the 6% aim bonus (which is about average per class) I think having 2 Ptechs is a good way to test it the old school way. But you MUST hit targets with the same expertise. You can change targets from low to high expertise. But the data is only usable when they are attacking a target with equal mitigation. (AKA the same enemy)

 

It is MUCH easier to get PVE hilts/barrels/armorings than it is to get EWH PVP ones. Every 1750 normal comms you can get an armoring or basically a hilt from RE'ing the WH pieces. In comparison the hilt/barrel would cost around 9000 normal comms and the belt/bracers cost a little over 4000 normal comms. Granted you might have to buy one more piece for the barrel, but we are talking 1/3 less credits. Making the PVE pieces a much more appealing option for everyone who plays.......The question is how far can you take it

 

Edit - Before some one says "but i thought WZ comms can only be traded in for PVP gear" Google it

Edited February 3, 2013 by Mookind

[ebado]

You jelly?

 

In other news, where you said " we've been saying since the current expertise system went live / went to PTS that the difference is marginal." is actually a lie. You have said nothing of the sort. I've checked your entire post/reply history from before and after 1.2 went live. In fact, you haven't said or done much of anything intelligent except troll this post.

 

In fact if you look at your post history, the entirety of it is you being condescending to other people. I'm not going to say I haven't done anything like that, you'll probably find I'm a turd a lot, but on the odd occasion I post meaningful information.

 

You must have come back and added all of this. I'm glad you didn't leave it as "You jelly?" That wasn't very mature and reflected poorly on you.

 

I'd still like you to address the issue: do you still think the character sheet is wrong? You've claimed this and haven't backed down from it, and it's the only reason I ever replied to your thread in the first place (and I'm feeling that's a mistake now, as you don't seem to be too interested in addressing this point beyond critiquing my post history and trying to take jabs at "scientists").

 

t's the only thing that made your thread unique from the dozens of expertise threads posted every week, becasue frankly 1) It's a very compelling point, if true and 2) there have been issues with stat application and calculation with the character sheet before, notably with companion characters about a year ago.

 

I'll ask one more time and be done with it, but I figure it's worth giving you one more reply worth of the benefit of the doubt despite my head telling me differently: do you have any actual information that the character sheet or the proven expertise formula is wrong?

[Aluvi]

First off, thanks to Mega and his friend for doing this. Nice to see someone that actually has enough passion for this game to continue to test things, do mathcrafting, and post this information here.

 

Second, to all of you haters: go DIAF. Seriously, this took a lot of time, credits, and patience. The VAST majority of the players that post negative comments in threads like this have never contributed ANYTHING to this community besides their biased, misinformed opinions and attempts to boost their own e-peens. I know, because I have been in the forums with Mega helping other Marauders, doing theorycrafting, testing, and figuring this game out, simply to help the community since this game started.

 

Now, as for this test. First off, the results were marginally in favor of high EXP. Less than a 1% difference. One issue I have is that statistically, 100 hits is not very much. 100 hits is, in my opinion, not enough to draw conclusive results from. For example, if I do a test to see how many crits i get on a single ability, I may get 35 crits out of 100, even though my crit rating is only say 28%. So those 100 hits would be a poor representation of my true stats. To get a more valid test, we would need many, many more iterations of the hits. I think to be truly safe, 10,000 would be enough to disregard any fluctuations in the random number generator. I am not saying that this test is null because of the low number of iterations, but people need to realize that there is a huge gap for RNG when only doing 100 iterations. For example, dps testing software for WoW would do 10,000 iterations of a full fight, where it rolled each hit from the given stats for a 5-10 minute duration, 10,000 times. At that point, any RNG becomes null and void due to the sheer amount of data being tested. Sadly, there is no way to do this with SWTOR without creating some kind of engine for testing these things from scratch, and I don't have the time or inclination to do so, nor do I know anyone else that does.

 

I do have one bone to pick about the results of the stats. Since the difference was marginal, less than 1%, BUT the difference in the damage reduction due to expertise difference was more than 1%, this kind of skews things. If we are talking about "general effectiveness", then yes, I agree, high exp is better, and I have endorsed that for a long time, and it is what our rated team rolls with. If we are looking at "highest possible pvp dps" though, then you both need to hit a target with the same amount of expertise, and in that scenario, the lower expertise high power build actually wins by a small margin.

 

So the point is, it comes down to this:

 

High expertise is more effective overall, especially if you take a significant amount of damage. It is, in my opinion, more effective in rated warzones, because the second that you start receiving healing, your expertise becomes more effective. Why? Because your healer has to heal LESS damage on a high expertise target (because they take less) than a low expertise target, even though that target does slightly more damage. But the difference is negligible. We are talking about about a 1.5% effective health increase, versus a 1.5% damage increase or so.

 

Lower expertise but stacking power WILL get you more damage, but at the cost of survivability. The real danger of running lower expertise though, is dying from burst, which is what killing in PvP, especially rated, is all about. If you are more squishy, you will die more. If you die more, you will be in spawn more, meaning you have less effective dps time. High power / low expertise still loses in this scenario.

 

Now you can argue these points all you want, but I can tell you, and my rated group who is #1 on Shadowlands can tell you, that the groups that we run into that run low exp / high power on their dps feel much more squishy and we have a much easier time bursting them down, which allows us to get easy wins.

 

To reiterate:

 

-I don't think 100 iterations is enough to validate your theory beyond all reasonable doubt. There is still too much of a margin for RNG in only 100 iterations, in a game that is designed to have RNG.

-High Power does slightly more damage overall at the expense of survivability. It is my opinion that high expertise is more viable, especially in rateds.

-People on the forums are jerks.

[Mookind]

There was no math involved............

 

They hit different targets and put the numbers up next to each other.......

 

HAVE NONE YOU TAKEN MIDDLE SCHOOL MATH?

[cashogy_reborn]

the character sheet is correct. that is not up for debate.

 

what this test proved, is that the offensive stats added from more aim/power in the 1214 expertise setup was capable of overcoming much of the extra damage reduction of 1396 expertise.

 

look at it this way: the 1396 player is receiving a ~2.5% damage boost, yet is still only able to produce .7% more damage than the 1214 player.

 

 

which raises the question: at what point can you balance expertise and main stat/power to produce the optimal DPS output? i would be very interested to see the results of 1314 expertise (replacing only color crystals) vs 1396 would be.

[ebado]

There was no math involved............

 

They hit different targets and put the numbers up next to each other.......

 

HAVE NONE YOU TAKEN MIDDLE SCHOOL MATH?

 

There's not going to be any sort of attempt to provide a control here. I think he was only interested in a 1v1 situation between the two, not a statistical solution. Which would provide the same answers we already know from the formulas.

[EtiMos]

Actually I understand EXACTLY how expertise works.

 

I agree with you on the point that if you reduce your expertise you will do less damage because you'll have less bonus damage from expertise.

 

What I also state, which I think you didn't understand from my post, is that if you replace that Expertise with Power (in this example) that you will do a little more damage from the gain you realize from power.

 

 

But my friend this example shows exactly that when he replaced the expertise crystals and mods with power he did less dmg on his target and at the same time his target did more dmg on him because of the fact that he had max expertise.

 

So how come and you still think that power gives more than expertise taking as a fact that as you say you know how expertise works?

[Mharz]

But my friend this example shows exactly that when he replaced the expertise crystals and mods with power he did less dmg on his target and at the same time his target did more dmg on him because of the fact that he had max expertise.

 

So how come and you still think that power gives more than expertise taking as a fact that as you say you know how expertise works?

 

Read back a few pages. His "experiment" was flawed.

 

What he did was not, experimentally perfect and didn't contain what we call a control.

 

What I'm claiming is that his results are in doubt because of the way he did the test.

 

He did a good job with trying to do the test for sure and based off my own testing I've found that the trade off of Expertise and Power are very slight (as the OP found as well).

[Xtrr]

your test is inconclusive test it against CRIT which is mitigated less and is your burst dps you dont burst someone down by maxing exp and doing reg hits do you??

[cashogy_reborn]

the test should be set-up to see what 1396 exp and 1214 exp do for damage against a single 1396 target.

 

it would be much easier to do these tests if we could customize the attributes for the target dummies we can get on our ships.

[EtiMos]

Read back a few pages. His "experiment" was flawed.

 

What he did was not, experimentally perfect and didn't contain what we call a control.

 

What I'm claiming is that his results are in doubt because of the way he did the test.

 

He did a good job with trying to do the test for sure and based off my own testing I've found that the trade off of Expertise and Power are very slight (as the OP found as well).

 

I agree with you on the last part but can you plz point out how and where exactly his experiment is flawed?It's for the common good.

 

All i see here is that he showed the truth and some people who thought otherwise and spent a forture to exchange expertise with power and now feel manipulated try to find excuses and reasons to justify their fail actions.

[cashogy_reborn]

I agree with you on the last part but can you plz point out how and where exactly his experiment is flawed?It's for the common good.

 

All i see here is that he showed the truth and some people who thought otherwise and spent a forture to exchange expertise with power and now feel manipulated try to find excuses and reasons to justify their fail actions.

 

i just posted why it is flawed.

 

obviously a 1396 exp is going to have a slight damage advantage over 1214, b/c it is both negating some incoming damage and having its outgoing damage increased.

 

however, a 1396 exp vs 1396 exp would have no bonus. so the test should have been 1396 v 1396, and 1214 v 1396. compare the damage output of 1214 and 1396 on the same 1396 target

[Schil]

your test is inconclusive test it against CRIT which is mitigated less and is your burst dps you dont burst someone down by maxing exp and doing reg hits do you??

 

crit is mitigated the same as a normal hit.

[Yeochins]

First off, thanks to Mega and his friend for doing this. Nice to see someone that actually has enough passion for this game to continue to test things, do mathcrafting, and post this information here.

 

Second, to all of you haters: go DIAF. Seriously, this took a lot of time, credits, and patience. The VAST majority of the players that post negative comments in threads like this have never contributed ANYTHING to this community besides their biased, misinformed opinions and attempts to boost their own e-peens. I know, because I have been in the forums with Mega helping other Marauders, doing theorycrafting, testing, and figuring this game out, simply to help the community since this game started.

 

Now, as for this test. First off, the results were marginally in favor of high EXP. Less than a 1% difference. One issue I have is that statistically, 100 hits is not very much. 100 hits is, in my opinion, not enough to draw conclusive results from. For example, if I do a test to see how many crits i get on a single ability, I may get 35 crits out of 100, even though my crit rating is only say 28%. So those 100 hits would be a poor representation of my true stats. To get a more valid test, we would need many, many more iterations of the hits. I think to be truly safe, 10,000 would be enough to disregard any fluctuations in the random number generator. I am not saying that this test is null because of the low number of iterations, but people need to realize that there is a huge gap for RNG when only doing 100 iterations. For example, dps testing software for WoW would do 10,000 iterations of a full fight, where it rolled each hit from the given stats for a 5-10 minute duration, 10,000 times. At that point, any RNG becomes null and void due to the sheer amount of data being tested. Sadly, there is no way to do this with SWTOR without creating some kind of engine for testing these things from scratch, and I don't have the time or inclination to do so, nor do I know anyone else that does.

 

I do have one bone to pick about the results of the stats. Since the difference was marginal, less than 1%, BUT the difference in the damage reduction due to expertise difference was more than 1%, this kind of skews things. If we are talking about "general effectiveness", then yes, I agree, high exp is better, and I have endorsed that for a long time, and it is what our rated team rolls with. If we are looking at "highest possible pvp dps" though, then you both need to hit a target with the same amount of expertise, and in that scenario, the lower expertise high power build actually wins by a small margin.

 

So the point is, it comes down to this:

 

High expertise is more effective overall, especially if you take a significant amount of damage. It is, in my opinion, more effective in rated warzones, because the second that you start receiving healing, your expertise becomes more effective. Why? Because your healer has to heal LESS damage on a high expertise target (because they take less) than a low expertise target, even though that target does slightly more damage. But the difference is negligible. We are talking about about a 1.5% effective health increase, versus a 1.5% damage increase or so.

 

Lower expertise but stacking power WILL get you more damage, but at the cost of survivability. The real danger of running lower expertise though, is dying from burst, which is what killing in PvP, especially rated, is all about. If you are more squishy, you will die more. If you die more, you will be in spawn more, meaning you have less effective dps time. High power / low expertise still loses in this scenario.

 

Now you can argue these points all you want, but I can tell you, and my rated group who is #1 on Shadowlands can tell you, that the groups that we run into that run low exp / high power on their dps feel much more squishy and we have a much easier time bursting them down, which allows us to get easy wins.

 

To reiterate:

 

-I don't think 100 iterations is enough to validate your theory beyond all reasonable doubt. There is still too much of a margin for RNG in only 100 iterations, in a game that is designed to have RNG.

-High Power does slightly more damage overall at the expense of survivability. It is my opinion that high expertise is more viable, especially in rateds.

-People on the forums are jerks.

 

Statistically speaking you only need 50 iterations to get within 3 standard deviations for a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt. From 50 iterations you can guarantee with 99.9% certainty that expertise is marginally superior. What that margin is - is up to debate, but as long as he has 50 iterations it is 99.9% certain.

 

These were a controlled 50 iterations showing with all-else being equal, expertise is marginally better than added HP+Power/Main-stat.

 

What he did not show was exchanging expertise for critical-rating and the subsequent experiments.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Yeochins

[Monoth]

Only makes sense as I'm sure Bioware doesn't want people to use PvE mods in PvP....

[Mookind]

But my friend this example shows exactly that when he replaced the expertise crystals and mods with power he did less dmg on his target and at the same time his target did more dmg on him because of the fact that he had max expertise.

 

So how come and you still think that power gives more than expertise taking as a fact that as you say you know how expertise works?

 

HE DID LESS DMG ON A TARGET WITH MORE MITIGATION WOW SHOCKER

 

Every time i come to this thread i realize why SWTOR pvp *********** blows

 

Part of the trade with the PVE is giving up mitigation for health pool HERPPPP DEEE DERRRRRRRP

Edited February 4, 2013 by Mookind