Why does Smash hit harder than Annihilate?

[Darth_Lycan]

So my question is why does an AoE Smash hit harder than a single targeted Annihilate? Standing alone Annihilate can hit harder than Smash but when you get 4 stacks of Shockwave, Obliterate for a Smash crit, then Smash, Smash will hit harder than Annihilate (i.e. Currently I can Annihilate for ~4500 and Smash for ~6000). There is no way with the current tree design to make Annihilate hit that hard. The only buff you can get towards Annihilate only allows you to use it more often. There are also ways to make the CD of Smash lessen as well, but I'm sure at this point in the game we are all very familiar with the different specs and how they work. I'm just saying regardless of PvE vs PvP Annihilate should hit significantly harder than Smash. In scenarios were burst dps is more favorable, you don't have time to let DoTs work their damage in so instead of using Rupture, for example, you would use Annihilate, which is great and all, however, in comparison to Smash it doesn't hit hard at all. My solution to this is not add something in the tree to make Annihilate hit harder but simply buff it in general to hit harder so that this effect can be applied to all cases both PvE and PvP. By no means do I think Marauders are weak whatsoever, just saying I think Annihilate should hit harder than Smash. What do you guys think?

[Jaigen]

Short answer:

 

obliterate is not smash

 

Long answer:

 

You forget that the these abilities are in 2 completely different talent trees. Rage only heavy hitting ability is smash while the annihilation tree can rely upon 2 very effective dots to do some real damage.

[Sinsavz]

Rage is currently unbalanced.

 

There really isn't anything more to it than that atm.

[Darth_Lycan]

My point exactly. Let's take a PvP scenario and compare the two trees. When you're trying to burn someone as fast as you can Rage spec is going to win every time over Annihilation. Of course Annihilation is geared more towards PvE while Rage is definitely a PvP spec. The way this can be more balanced in my opinion is to increase the amount of damage Annihilate does. I think an Annihilation Marauder should be able to come in and finish off an enemy with one blow (Annihilate) better than simply Smashing with Rage.

 

Now as for the imbalance of Rage spec, yes this argument can be made and is usually brought up by those who don't roll a Marauder and get killed by them. If any adjustments are to be made to Rage spec I do not believe that they should be nerfed. I do think that Marauders and Sentinels should be the classes that deal the most damage out of any other one just because they are purely a dps class and are melee, and they are indeed ranked the highest dps class in both PvE and PvP. This should stay this way. Now back to Annihilation vs. Rage, I think that Annihilation should be brought up to the level that Rage is currently at in regards to PvP.

 

Go ahead keep coming up with thoughts, ideas, agreements, and disagreements. This is a good talk.

[Zamppa]

They already nerfed sorcerer hybrid dps trees around 1.2 because most bad players kept crying "omg sorcs are so overpover because they actually have some burst damage! They kill me so often, nerf them or I end my sub and never come back". Now they want BW to nerf rage marauder and take away their most powerful attack because again the bad players are dying because of it.

 

My hint for you people is: learn to play and stop whining if you die because the other player is more skilled and knows his/her class better than you know yours.

[Darth_Lycan]

I'll make an argument against my own opinion. With enough rage built up, Annihilate can max instantly at anytime you like just as long as it's not on cool down obviously. Sure Smash can be casted instantly just like Annihilate, but you won't get the most out of it by doing so. You have to go though the timed process of getting 4 stacks of Shockwave then either Force Leaping or Obliterating to insure that Smash with get a critical hit, so because this process takes longer you should be rewarded the higher crit, but I don't know that you should be rewarded the higher crit and the AoE'ness of Smash together. Perhaps a way to 'fix' or balance Rage spec more would be to distribute the damage of Smash more based on the number of enemies hit. So for example if you were to Smash 1 enemy you might crit them for 6000 damage, but if you Smash 2 enemies instead you would do 5500 damage to each of them instead of 6000 to each of them (my math is obviously not to scale for this but there would have to be an equation to figure out what this damage distribution would be that a programmer would be able to determine). Thoughts?

[Darth_Lycan]

Here Here Zamppa!

 

I was pretty upset when I couldn't use Chain Lightning with Wrath anymore and not to mention the nerf to Force Bending as well for healing. Those were the days for a sorc. What I'm basically asking for in a summation is for the damage of Annihilate to be increased. There's nothing like getting the satisfaction of just completely melting somebody. And again, Marauders should be able to put out the most dps hands down.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Darth_Lycan

[Zamppa]

I'll make an argument against my own opinion. With enough rage built up, Annihilate can max instantly at anytime you like just as long as it's not on cool down obviously. Sure Smash can be casted instantly just like Annihilate, but you won't get the most out of it by doing so. You have to go though the timed process of getting 4 stacks of Shockwave then either Force Leaping or Obliterating to insure that Smash with get a critical hit, so because this process takes longer you should be rewarded the higher crit, but I don't know that you should be rewarded the higher crit and the AoE'ness of Smash together. Perhaps a way to 'fix' or balance Rage spec more would be to distribute the damage of Smash more based on the number of enemies hit. So for example if you were to Smash 1 enemy you might crit them for 6000 damage, but if you Smash 2 enemies instead you would do 5500 damage to each of them instead of 6000 to each of them (my math is obviously not to scale for this but there would have to be an equation to figure out what this damage distribution would be that a programmer would be able to determine). Thoughts?

 

I was just going to say this! Indeed you are right, as getting the most damage out from the smash it requires one to use force leap/obliterate AND force crush/force choke so it's far from "quick instant 6-7k AoE damage". The other option is to use berserk + obliterate/force leap which requires 30 stacks of fury. Obliterate + Force Crush needs 6 rage to work even with skills from the tree and Force Crush has a cooldown too. Same goes with Force Choke, it's 60 sec cooldown so not a spammable way to get shockwave.

 

Those are damn good reason for boosted Smash to hit harder than Annihilate for example as one does not have to use other tallents to build up high damage Annihilate as rage-specs need when building up high damage Smash. One has to use 3 rage for obliterate and another 3 for Force Crush to build up the Smash and even wait for few secs after Force Crush for the shockwave to build up. Same goes with force leap/charge as it always takes few secs after casting Force Crush.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Zamppa

[Darth_Lycan]

Good talk Zamppa, good talk

[AngusFTW]

Annihilate hits fine if you're geared if it was to hit as hard as smash it would make anni overpowered because it would give the dot spec mad burst.. I think maybe there should be a talent to give increased crit or even occasionally an autocrit on the ability though because ye it can actually burst pretty decently but it has to crit. Edited January 27, 2013 by AngusFTW

[SoonerJBD]

If any adjustments are to be made to Rage spec I do not believe that they should be nerfed. I do think that Marauders and Sentinels should be the classes that deal the most damage out of any other one just because they are purely a dps class and are melee, and they are indeed ranked the highest dps class in both PvE and PvP. This should stay this way.

 

This is such nonsense. DPS classes should be balanced, otherwise there is no point in DPSing with any class other than Marauder/Sentinel, particularly in PvE. If you want to keep the ridiculously OP derp-smash spec for PvP, fine, but they need to take away your AOE mez and every other bit of utility Marauders get.

[Darth_Lycan]

I agree, Annihilate does not crit very often, which is very disappointing.

 

As for the balancing of dps classes I have to disagree. Marauders (and Assassins for that matter) are at a disadvantage just for being a melee class. With melee you have to make sure you're right on top of the target to do damage and are more susceptible to damage being right there in the action whether it's PvP or against a boss in an Operation. A ranged dps is able to avoid more damage and attack at a greater range than a melee can and it is because of this that melee dps should be rewarded for dealing more damage. If anybody needs a dps buff it would be the Assassin to the level of a Marauder dps but this is not what this thread is about.

 

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that the way the Annihilation and Rage trees are are pretty close to how they should be. Maybe if there was a way to insure that Annihilate crits would make things better.

[Anosa]

its currently a balance issue

[SoonerJBD]

I agree, Annihilate does not crit very often, which is very disappointing.

 

As for the balancing of dps classes I have to disagree. Marauders (and Assassins for that matter) are at a disadvantage just for being a melee class. With melee you have to make sure you're right on top of the target to do damage and are more susceptible to damage being right there in the action whether it's PvP or against a boss in an Operation. A ranged dps is able to avoid more damage and attack at a greater range than a melee can and it is because of this that melee dps should be rewarded for dealing more damage. If anybody needs a dps buff it would be the Assassin to the level of a Marauder dps but this is not what this thread is about.

 

This is why melee classes get better defensive cooldowns. It is not an excuse for giving them more damage output. The time it takes melee classes to stay on target should be factored in to their damage output, but Marauders and Sentinels are putting out more damage than all other classes even factoring this in. I play several DPS toons including a Sentinel. No other class I've played can put out the damage my Sentinel can. Maruaders and Sentinels need to be nerfed. It's just that simple.

[BlznSmri]

Maruaders and Sentinels need to be nerfed. It's just that simple.

 

Instead of nerfing a class, a really popular class, what they should probably focus more on bringing the other classes up to a similar damage output as Sentinels/ Marauders. Not talking just in a PvP aspect, as I feel that outside of class specific buffs and utility, player skill should be the deciding factor when it comes to who to bring to an ops/ wz. I'm against wanton nerfs, but am a stark supporter of buffing.

[wargonglok]

i dont think the answer is buffing for the mara, maybe buffing other classes...

 

maybe nerf smash, its an aoe that deals more damage then a single target, it is also instant cast.

 

or

 

make it so when you get shockwave and the insta crit proc, you can hit smash for increased smash damage.

 

or you can hold down the smash button for up to 5 seconds, every extra second makes it deal more damage when you release, this would curve so that you lose dps, but gain burst.

That curve would stop it form being better dps in pve, but can still burst in pvp.

 

with this charge up, you could react by stunning, or interrupting, or kncokbacking.

Edited January 27, 2013 by wargonglok

[wargonglok]

Instead of nerfing a class, a really popular class, what they should probably focus more on bringing the other classes up to a similar damage output as Sentinels/ Marauders. Not talking just in a PvP aspect, as I feel that outside of class specific buffs and utility, player skill should be the deciding factor when it comes to who to bring to an ops/ wz. I'm against wanton nerfs, but am a stark supporter of buffing.

 

i agree that other classes should be buffed to amtch, but the devs dont do that, because then every signle bit of pve ocntent in the game has to be modified to match, its just easier to nerf sadly

[wargonglok]

My point exactly. Let's take a PvP scenario and compare the two trees. When you're trying to burn someone as fast as you can Rage spec is going to win every time over Annihilation. Of course Annihilation is geared more towards PvE while Rage is definitely a PvP spec. The way this can be more balanced in my opinion is to increase the amount of damage Annihilate does. I think an Annihilation Marauder should be able to come in and finish off an enemy with one blow (Annihilate) better than simply Smashing with Rage.

 

Now as for the imbalance of Rage spec, yes this argument can be made and is usually brought up by those who don't roll a Marauder and get killed by them. If any adjustments are to be made to Rage spec I do not believe that they should be nerfed. I do think that Marauders and Sentinels should be the classes that deal the most damage out of any other one just because they are purely a dps class and are melee, and they are indeed ranked the highest dps class in both PvE and PvP. This should stay this way. Now back to Annihilation vs. Rage, I think that Annihilation should be brought up to the level that Rage is currently at in regards to PvP.

 

Go ahead keep coming up with thoughts, ideas, agreements, and disagreements. This is a good talk.

 

 

the devs have specifically stated no hybrid tax in htis game, so no, your wrong,

 

all sustained dps trees should be about the same, just different forms like physical, force, tech, or ele damage

all burst trees should give less dps, but burst (obviously)

 

if a class can heal and dps, and they make a hybrid, they are already taxed because they cant access top tier damage talents, they are already taxed for a hybrid.

 

if a class than can heal or dps goes full dps, they should do the same dps as a mara wether its burst or steady dps. This is because if they spec purely dps, they cant heal.

[Genuine]

They already nerfed sorcerer hybrid dps trees around 1.2 because most bad players kept crying "omg sorcs are so overpover because they actually have some burst damage! They kill me so often, nerf them or I end my sub and never come back". Now they want BW to nerf rage marauder and take away their most powerful attack because again the bad players are dying because of it.

 

My hint for you people is: learn to play and stop whining if you die because the other player is more skilled and knows his/her class better than you know yours.

 

totally agree with you

[Darth_Lycan]

Yeah I'm sticking with the conclusion I came up with earlier.

 

Again this thread is about Marauder Annihilate vs. Marauder Smash and only comparing a Marauder to itself. This is not a thread for which classes need buffed/nerfed. Thank you everybody for all your input.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Darth_Lycan

[BlznSmri]

Yeah I'm sticking with the conclusion I came up with earlier.

 

Again this thread is about Marauder Annihilate vs. Marauder Smash and only comparing a Marauder to itself. This is not a thread for which classes need buffed/nerfed. Thank you everybody for all your input.

 

To answer your question then in a more On Topic fashion.

 

1. Rage spec gets 30% Armor pen from Shii-Cho Form, which stacks with the 20% armor pen debuff from Juggs/ Mercs/ Snipers.

2. Final Tier Talents very rarely have any talented buffs for them.

3. Smash is the majority of Rage's damage whereas Annihilate makes up for ~17% of Anni's damage. (Rage is a one trick pony).

4. Outside of PvP Rage does the least amount of DPS compared to Carnage/ Annhilation, the exception being any boss fight that has a lot of adds(Trandoshan phase of Kephass, The Writhing Horror add duty).

 

 

Simply put Rage spec only has one thing going for it in terms of damage and losing that would break the spec.

[Darth_Lycan]

Awesome, love the comment BlznSmri. It's nice when a fair amount of people in a thread end up finding something to agree upon in the end. This thead has helped out a lot. Thanks again everybody.

[Omophorus]

Simply put Rage spec only has one thing going for it in terms of damage and losing that would break the spec.

 

So I was seriously frustrated earlier after getting totally smoked on a character I am just starting to gear for 50 PVP.

 

Then I got to thinking about ways to keep the *character* of Rage, boost its single target DPS so it's not so pathetic, and address the absolutely absurd balance issue that is the current state of Smash.

 

Few things immediately came to mind...

1) Redesign Overpower and swap in the 3rd tier with Strangulate. Instead of reducing the CD on Smash, make it function similar to PPA and have a % chance to reset the CD on Force Scream + make the next Scream free (or do bonus damage).

 

2) Redesign Dominate to give a % chance of rooting additional targets within a 5m radius of the initial target instead of forcing Smash to crit. Make it easier to hit multiple targets, but in exchange, lose the forced crit, which is the most unbalanced part of the whole spec. I love Marauder, and I enjoy limited doses of smashmonkey, but no hard-hitting AoE ability has any business auto-critting (that's just bad game design). Possibly have it add a short-duration buff/debuff to the additional targets making them immune to Dominate for a couple seconds (to address having multiple smashers virtually guaranteed to root large numbers of people).

 

3) Add the wind-up back to Smash so that an attentive enemy has a prayer in heck of dodging it (optional, could be too much).

 

4) Modify higher-tier talents as necessary to adjust overall DPS balance closer to Carnage/Anni.

 

 

The goal, in my mind, is to not completely remove Smash from the game. Marauder/Juggernaut needs some viable form of AoE damage. What does need to happen, and I think every sane player would agree, is shift damage away from Smash and into other abilities.

 

Any adjustment to Smash as Rage stands now would decimate the spec as it doesn't have any other tricks. Adding a PPA-esque mechanic for Force Scream would significantly boost single-target DPS to compensate for the loss of Smash damage, and with some tuning, would make Rage more useful for PVE as well. It would have *enough* AoE damage to be useful on boss fights with significant adds, and enough single-target DPS not to be a total detriment on single targets.

 

What we'd be left with is 3 viable single-target DPS specs, one biased towards bleeds/sustained DPS + sturdiness (possibly un-nerf bleed heals here too), one biased towards on-demand burst + utility, and one with unpredictable burst + decent AoE damage.

 

Edit: I didn't consider how it would impact all the various Juggy trees to enact the above changes, so there is definitely some additional thinking/tuning or reconfiguring of Juggy talents to make something like this feasible.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Omophorus

[BlznSmri]

Edit: I didn't consider how it would impact all the various Juggy trees to enact the above changes, so there is definitely some additional thinking/tuning or reconfiguring of Juggy talents to make something like this feasible.

 

This is the primary difficulty in adjusting Rage/ Focus. It's the Shared tree and as such, affects two different Classes. Rage is presently competitive for Juggs against Vengeance so changing anything could potentially hurt them (only 2 talents are different for each spec).

 

1. Redesigning Overpower would have to be a strictly Marauder change, since Juggernauts have access to Battle Cry which makes Force Scream free after Charge/ Obliterate, making the talent redundant. (This is something I don't think they'd do since the difference would be dramatic)

 

2. I don't entirely disagree with changing Dominate, but your suggested change would only be applicable in PvP environments, so in regards to PvE it would be 3 severely wasted Talents in a tree that is already chock full of PvP talents (4, arguably 5, of 19 talents are directly geared towards PvP, whereas Carnage has 3 and Annihilation has 2). I'd suggest that instead of making Smash Auto Crit, it instead increases damage done by 50%, while changing Shockwave to increase crit chance by say 50% or 12% per stack.

 

3. That would be reverting a "fix" and I don't know of any dev that would do that intentionally.

 

4. About the only way I can think of modifying the higher tier talents is to make Obliterate and Crush hit a bit harder to compensate.

 

All that said, while adjustments to Rage would be appreciated, I personally don't care for the play style of it and feel that it's super clunky and doesn't have any real rhythm.

[Omophorus]

All that said, while adjustments to Rage would be appreciated, I personally don't care for the play style of it and feel that it's super clunky and doesn't have any real rhythm.

 

No argument here.

 

The fundamental, core problem is that forced crit AoE damage is just a Bad Idea™. I really don't think Smash should have *any* buffs to crit chance, though I'm fine with a reasonable buff to crit damage to give the spec reasonable overall AoE burst damage, however that winds up being implemented. 5k+ on each of 5 targets, however, is just beyond insane.

 

SW/JK needs a hard-hitting AoE attack, but it should not hit shockingly much harder than any other AoE attack on a reasonably short CD. Hitting 5 targets is entirely justified by the requirement of being in melee range to use the ability (as compared, to say, Death Field). Things like DFA and Orbital Strike *should* hit hard, as befits their long CD.