Same gender romance discussion

[copperjack]

The Holonet page has T7 as a he... I'm trying to remember the nutty woman on Pub Nar Shadaa who wants her droid back. I think she calls it a 'he', but I might be getting her confused with the 'overly attached' woman from Kotor. They're both bonkers, so maybe they don't count.

 

Hmmm, it also appears from youtube that the JK calls T7 a he. Maybe it was Master Orgus that used 'it'? It's been a while since I did that storyline but I'm sure there was someone.

[Tatile]

I kind of wish I could play a Droid.

 

But would you be allowed to pick your own pronouns?

[drakensang]

But would you be allowed to pick your own pronouns?

 

If droids were playable in swtor, they would likely be humanoform too. So there would probably be femdroids with non-mammal metal-mammaries who would likely get female pronouns.

 

They could even be jedi and sith. There is a comic with a force-sensitive droid.

Edited November 19, 2013 by drakensang

[Tatile]

They could even be jedi and sith. There is a comic with a force-sensitive droid.

 

It's extremely important that I a) find out how that worked and b) find out if it's generally accepted canon and not like Marvel's first run of Star Wars comics back in the day

[drakensang]

It's extremely important that I a) find out how that worked and b) find out if it's generally accepted canon and not like Marvel's first run of Star Wars comics back in the day

 

No, Skippy is non-canon. But there is nothing that cannot be retconned. There are force-sensitive, sentient crystals too, so midichlorians probably don't need carbon based hosts.

[Tatile]

No, Skippy is non-canon. But there is nothing that cannot be retconned. There are force-sensitive, sentient crystals too, so midichlorians probably don't need carbon based hosts.

 

I'm more interested at looking at it from a non-midichlorian perspective, because I personally think those are very much like mitochondria, which are kind-of like really ancient bacteria (and given by the "mother" - they're transmitted via the ovum), which wouldn't make much sense for in-organic materials which can be imbued with the Force, or at least aspects of it.

 

(I have a character who's studying the nature of the Force in a scientific manner, so understanding from where it might originate for both organic and non-organic users is important.)

[Kioma]

I'm more interested at looking at it from a non-midichlorian perspective, because I personally think those are very much like mitochondria, which are kind-of like really ancient bacteria (and given by the "mother" - they're transmitted via the ovum), which wouldn't make much sense for in-organic materials which can be imbued with the Force, or at least aspects of it.

 

They were based on mitochondria, according to what Lucas has said on the matter.

[Joushigun]

But would you be allowed to pick your own pronouns?

 

The way I would set it up. . .of course this would be if I could just completely rewrite the whole blasted game and give it some really interesting stories. . .would be that Droids start out as androgynous, and can choose not only how they look, but the pronouns that they would be using.

 

I would probably do a lot of oddball things with the game, if I could rewrite it from the ground up. For instance, Droids wouldn't start with a particular class, but their origin story would include breaking their core programming. In truth, I'd probably start my stories out very differently. You don't choose a core class until several levels into the game. For instance, there would be a handful of starter planets such as Dromund Kas, Corruscant, Tattooine, Hutta, and for Droids, say Balmora. Your initial storyline involves either breaking out of a life of poverty/enslavement or coming from a well-off household and at the end of the storyline you've chosen, either the House you belong to has been destroyed or you get sent off to train as a Sith/Jedi. (Droids get to break their programming and with the right upgrade can access the Force, though this could be through either sentient metals or becoming slightly cyborg. At the end, the Droids get to chose things like looks, core personality, and gender). There's then a montage of you learning your trade, and then the story begins again with you setting off on your own as the lowest level full member of your class.

 

Of course, this is how I would rewrite the game. Sometimes I think that the big problem for games is that they don't hire storytellers to write the stories.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Joushigun

[Tatile]

Of course, this is how I would rewrite the game. Sometimes I think that the big problem for games is that they don't hire storytellers to write the games.

 

Actually, David Gaider did a series of articles recently on his tumblr about writing for games - you have little to no freedom as a writer, regardless of your storytelling ability. The stories that are told are beholden to what the developers and managers want in the game - you're restricted by game play and the engine, as well as the logistics of gaming versus novel reading, or film watching. They're all different ways of storytelling, but as player choice is one of the key aspects of gaming, it's imperative that you allow for branching story lines, as well as dialogue options that different, but ultimately coherent regardless of the (however random) choices the player makes. It was quite an interesting read and I do recommend it to anyone who wishes to write for games.

 

Also, I asked Alexander Freed about SCORPIO and this is a key point:

 

"@TSuperfluous 1) Making SCORPIO "read" as female emphasizes that She Is Different compared to the default (male / neuter) Star Wars droid."

~Alexander Freed @AlexanderMFreed, 19/11/13 1733~GMT

 

(~https://twitter.com/TSuperfluous/status/402763424691531776)

 

So this backs up the idea that while we have droids being referred to as "it", they would otherwise be considered to be male - we could assume this is because "male" is considered to be a default in the Star Wars universe, as it is in our own.

[Joushigun]

Actually, David Gaider did a series of articles recently on his tumblr about writing for games - you have little to no freedom as a writer, regardless of your storytelling ability. The stories that are told are beholden to what the developers and managers want in the game - you're restricted by game play and the engine, as well as the logistics of gaming versus novel reading, or film watching. They're all different ways of storytelling, but as player choice is one of the key aspects of gaming, it's imperative that you allow for branching story lines, as well as dialogue options that different, but ultimately coherent regardless of the (however random) choices the player makes. It was quite an interesting read and I do recommend it to anyone who wishes to write for games.

 

I know. Unfortunately, I think that a lot of the problem is that they don't start out to tell a good story. Too often, the stories are rather cliched, mundane, and I think that the biggest limit on the storytelling has to do with people being afraid of not churning out the usual run of stories- the same way that we've gotten loads of movies that are nearly identical.

 

I think that, if they wanted to, they could write really good stories that work with the technology and give the players a lot of choice in how the story develops and unfolds.

[copperjack]

I know. Unfortunately, I think that a lot of the problem is that they don't start out to tell a good story. Too often, the stories are rather cliched, mundane, and I think that the biggest limit on the storytelling has to do with people being afraid of not churning out the usual run of stories- the same way that we've gotten loads of movies that are nearly identical.

 

I think that, if they wanted to, they could write really good stories that work with the technology and give the players a lot of choice in how the story develops and unfolds.

 

Even in a good story they can only give you a certain amount of choice, because the more branches in the story the bigger the game is. I think anything much beyond the first Dragon Age gets into huge amounts of content which cost a lot and take time. It's kind of a balancing act between all the various parts. I've seen really great text only games with large amounts of freedom and choice but they wouldn't be feasible as a game like this.

[Joushigun]

Even in a good story they can only give you a certain amount of choice, because the more branches in the story the bigger the game is. I think anything much beyond the first Dragon Age gets into huge amounts of content which cost a lot and take time. It's kind of a balancing act between all the various parts. I've seen really great text only games with large amounts of freedom and choice but they wouldn't be feasible as a game like this.

 

Very true, but I think the core problem still exists there- a fear of creating a really good story. Even if, say, you have only, say, three endings for each storyline, the focus should be on first creating as strong a story as possible, but say that you start with having, as here, eight starting stories, and then you branch from there. How much should each story branch when it gets to the end of that chapter? The best limitation would probably be two. That means you end up with sixteen story arcs for the next chapter, and yes, it can become unmanageable passed that because the next time you end up with 32 possible storylines, and past that, 64, and so forth.

 

The best way to handle that is by making each story littered with flavor assignments that match the decisions in the last chapter. For example, you're an Agent, and you chose to be a double agent. Occasionally, you get assignments that are for the Republic, but most of the time, your assignment has to do with staying on that specific path of serving the Empire.

 

Overall, the choices would color your story, but not require an entirely new one.

 

Still, my point is that they need to start by focusing on making the best story they can and work from there.

[copperjack]

I actually liked the stories I've played so far in this game, but I definitely agree with you that writers should be more adventurous in games and movies. You can only watch the same thing so many times before it gets old.

 

I think it's probably still too much to do full branching at the end of each chapter, as in making chapter two 100% different based on the choice at the end of chapter one, but it would be great if they had more flavour assignments. I wish the endgame content so far did more to acknowledge class differences and story choices. I think in some parts they kind of forget that they allowed your character choices so you are forced into things that are counter to what your character would do.

[Tatile]

"@AlexanderMFreed It's interesting to note that "maleness" is considered a default state, but that was very useful, thank you :)" ~ Tatile 19/11/13 1900~GMT

 

"@TSuperfluous I agree it raises a lot of questions--but it certainly seems established in SW, so we do our best with what's there." Alexander Freed 19/11/13 1900~

 

~https://twitter.com/TSuperfluous/status/402906188913717248

 

So, apparently, I was right. There is an assumed male=default neutral for droids in Star Wars.

[DAWUSS]

I think the dynamic nature of an MMO can allow for player input on the storyline on a macro scale. Obviously the way the 3 chapter class stories are set up there really isn't much room for anything other than the Railroad Express (not to mention how it seems like everything happens in the same order of planets [You'd swear the Jedi Knight, Jedi Consular, Trooper, and Smuggler were stalking each other the way they travel around the galaxy]). On a larger scale, I don't see why the playerbase shouldn't be able to shape the story. Let them fight over the fate of a planet and let the winning faction shape how the next phase of the war goes. Or something.

 

As for the same-sex romance, would it be best to have a bonus companion (next in line after HK-51 and Treek) fill that role, or should a current class companion be tweaked? Me, I wouldn't mind an added bonus companion fill that role. Then the people who get outraged at such relationships can avoid them by not getting them in the party.

[Tatile]

It would be most fair to have them not be paid for - also, having them available at the same time as the OGRA takes away a lot of the "this is something different/other" that's implied by having it behind a pay/level wall. Also, all the OGRAs are free, they're part of the main game, if Bioware makes SGRAs in the Cartel Market, then they're making people pay for content they should have access to by default - Bioware says there's nothing different between SGRA content and OGRA content, but weirdly they treat it as if it's some sort of *********** bizarre, loony suggestion, like swimming pools on the moon.

 

Also, people who don't want to romance their same-gendered companions can do so easily. It's called "not hitting the gigantic [Flirt] option", like you did with every other NPC you never [Flirt]ed with.

[Joushigun]

DAWUSS,

 

The problem with a game like that is it would require a massive amount of data and a massive amount of development time. A few games have promised that when they began, but ultimately had to pull back entirely on it.

 

That said, at the rate of development, the likelihood is that we should see something on that scale be developed within our lifetimes.

 

Regarding the SGR companion- I would like to see them introduce not a bonus companions that are free to pick up at around level ten. They don't have to be immensely powerful, but I want them to be introduced early in the game and free to obtain.

[Pietrastor]

Regarding the SGR companion- I would like to see them introduce not a bonus companions that are free to pick up at around level ten. They don't have to be immensely powerful, but I want them to be introduced early in the game and free to obtain.

Spot on. No paywall (I mean seriously Bioware, you would have to be joking) and not 50/55+ and NOT any 1 million/Legacy 50 restrictions. They should be available to obtain for anyone for completly free after only doing some quest chain, from early levels just like all other straight companions. Edited November 19, 2013 by Pietrastor

[Tatile]

Spot on. No paywall (I mean seriously Bioware, you would have to be joking) and not 50/55+ and NOT any 1 million/Legacy 50 restrictions. They should be available to obtain for anyone for completly free after only doing some quest chain, from early levels just like all other straight companions.

 

It would be interesting what Bioware has to say to this, given their current predilection for putting new stuff on the Cartel Market for a couple thousand CC.

 

But, of course, we will never know

[fabiyun]

We already knew males were the default, but it's good to get confirmation for the pic or it didn't happen crowd.

 

As for SGR companions, they should indeed be added on the starter planet for free for all classes. It's not that hard to do, I don't understand why the crowd in Austin has such a difficult time wrapping their heads around such a simple solution to a problem they created.

[Tatile]

We already knew males were the default, but it's good to get confirmation for the pic or it didn't happen crowd.

 

As for SGR companions, they should indeed be added on the starter planet for free for all classes. It's not that hard to do, I don't understand why the crowd in Austin has such a difficult time wrapping their heads around such a simple solution to a problem they created.

 

"But...butt...BUTT! I LIKE BIG BUTTS AND I CANNOT LIE~"

 

"But how do we make money out of it?"

 

"

!"

 

"No! This happens every damn time!"

[copperjack]

It would be kind of interesting to see how a game that does the complete opposite would sell, taking female as the default or having men in revealing outfits. Does anyone know of a game that's done something like that?

[Palar]

So, apparently, I was right. There is an assumed male=default neutral for droids in Star Wars.

 

Even the Astromechs... I restrained myself from making the joke yesterday, but screw it: It's all because of R2's shape.

 

I kinda love the fact you managed to get a Tweet dialogue about it with a ex-writer... and he talked bout said tangent more in one hour than BW have in two years concerning this thread. Says it all, really.

 

"But...butt...BUTT! I LIKE BIG BUTTS AND I CANNOT LIE~"

 

"But how do we make money out of it?"

 

"

!"

 

"No! This happens every damn time!"

 

I guess today's gonna be a capricious day...that song gets a little disturbing if you change the lyrics so Mix-A-Lot's singing about big Hutts.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Palar

[HaleLightmight]

No offense to gay people. but think about it this way.

If you play this game because your a Star Wars fan, have you seen Fanboys?

watch this clip from Fanboys, and pay attention to 40-56 seconds:

"name me one star wars character whose gay."

Because of this game their argument is invalid, and for me that is really sad.

"What has this world come to?"

"Nothing but darkness, my friend, nothing but darkness."

[Palar]

If we're going by "Picard is cultured; ergo, gay" levels of logic, then the fact there's only 4 women shown in the original trilogy means most of the male characters must be left gaying it up for company.