Gunnery / Assault Hybrid (PVE)

[oaceen]

so last night, someone told me that he runs his gunnery commando with incendiary round instead of demo round in PVE.

i know a recent thread was posted about this with regards to PVP, and many people (including me) thought it was probably not efficient compared to going full 31 in either, putting all of your eggs into one basket that's on a 15s cooldown isn't really ideal for burst, but i think that this is somewhat different with regards to PVE

 

 

here is the spec: 0/28/13

 

when this spec was first proposed to me last night, i immediately discounted it. 'give up demo round? are you insane?'

i quickly did some math in my head: incendiary round costs 50% ammo with a 20% longer duration and doesn't do as much damage. it didn't seem to add up. a more ammo-intensive rotation plus giving up cell capacitor and reserve round?

 

but then i looked more closely and remembered the ammo return on burning targets with HIB. that's a gain in ammo overall, easily worth the loss of cell capacitor and reduced CD of reserve powercell.

i like reserve powercell on a 2min CD anyway so that i can time along with my relic and recharge cells for lots of extra damage when i have the power boost. only testing will really show if this is ideal or not though.

 

 

 

anyway, so here's what you're giving up:

• demo round, which is huge thing to give up and roughly equates to 10-15% of my total damage (is this value different for anyone else?)
  
• 3% ranged/tech crit, which roughly equates to a ~2.3% increase in damage
  
• first responder, although there is much debate anyway with regards to this and weapon calibrations
  
• extra ammo return on recharge cells and reduced cooldown of reserve powercell
  
• 3 wasted skill points in super heated plasma
  

 

what you gain:

• incendiary round and over 100% armor penetration with high impact bolt. i reckon that together, these two must account for the ~12-17% lost from demo round and field training for this spec to be worth it
  
• extra ammo return every time you use high impact bolt (for PVP, with no way to reset HIB and/or make it free, this part of the spec seemed rather unimportant, but in PVE with the 4-set bonus, this seems very powerful)
  
• 2% endurance (yay?)
  

 

as an aside, about the spec, i think that one point in high friction bolts could be moved elsewhere given that HIB still has 100% armor pen without it, but i think having two points is useful for the 100% ammo return

 

 

 

i haven't had a chance to login today to check this out, but i'll probably be doing some testing later to see how i like the rotation/spec and possibly post some parses.

 

has anyone tried this spec? any impressions?

Edited January 21, 2013 by oaceen

[KeyboardNinja]

I was talking about something similar with a friend of mine. He was already experimenting with cutting Demo Round out of his rotation, since doing so allows him to *never* use Hammer Shot and always exploit his Curtain of Fire procs. The downsides are obvious though. It definitely seems like ammo management would be easier in this spec. Whether or not that translates into more (or even equal) DPS remains to be seen.

[oaceen]

I was talking about something similar with a friend of mine. He was already experimenting with cutting Demo Round out of his rotation, since doing so allows him to *never* use Hammer Shot and always exploit his Curtain of Fire procs. The downsides are obvious though. It definitely seems like ammo management would be easier in this spec. Whether or not that translates into more (or even equal) DPS remains to be seen.

that seems interesting. so the rotation is FA with proc, HIB on CD, GR elsewise? any other attacks in the rotation?

 

i had just been tossing around the idea this week of using mortar volley on CD even in a single-target dps rotation and using reserve powercell with plasma grenade again (i had been experimenting with using it with full auto as per some suggestions from the forum, but found it didn't help too much with ammo management. in fact i seem to have better ammo management by saving it for PG)

 

anyway, is the spec something like this?

or does he still take demo round and only use it sparingly?

Edited January 21, 2013 by oaceen

[ArchangelLBC]

The slightly extra oomph in from HiB isn't worth losing Demo Round for, and Incendiary Round is pretty expensive for the damage you can expect from it. This more or less negates the refund you get from hitting burning targets since IR will be your only way to set them on fire.

 

But hey I could be wrong. If you're using it in PVE then show me an honest long spec of this vs full gunnery vs full assault. My prediction is it won't be up to par though.

[oaceen]

i suspect that you just skimmed through my post, and i invite you to read through it again.

[MandalorianCpt]

So ive actually done the work on this in a attempt to catch up with my rdps partner who hit 1956 last night and can hold it. SO back to point, yes i found using IR instead of DR seems like a smart plan but without applying plasma cell at the same time it really isnt worth it.

1st off ammo regen is more of a pain if you've become comfortable with the regular rotation we've used, with it ammo require 3 instead of two in operations when **** hits the fan you'll find yourself running on empty faster then u can count.

2nd and more importantly the dps increase isnt actually a improvement, I found a couple boss where u are require to constantly pull off them it does give a slight dps boost (will become even harder to maintain ammo) but on a single target you lose approx ~ 100 dps off your average i've done about 15 parses using tons of different combo to see if and how i can increase the damage . in short not worth it

[ArchangelLBC]

i suspect that you just skimmed through my post, and i invite you to read through it again.

 

I feel like your arguments aren't enough to persuade me to try it in a raid when DPS isn't a problem without some long parses that show a DPS gain with a hybrid spec. 20k demo rounds during Kephess the Undying is a lot of damage to give up for something untested.

 

Your claim, your thread, your burden of proof. I'll happily concede I'm wrong when you can demonstrate it beats a full 31 point gunnery.

[oaceen]

So ive actually done the work on this in a attempt to catch up with my rdps partner who hit 1956 last night and can hold it. SO back to point, yes i found using IR instead of DR seems like a smart plan but without applying plasma cell at the same time it really isnt worth it.

1st off ammo regen is more of a pain if you've become comfortable with the regular rotation we've used, with it ammo require 3 instead of two in operations when **** hits the fan you'll find yourself running on empty faster then u can count.

2nd and more importantly the dps increase isnt actually a improvement, I found a couple boss where u are require to constantly pull off them it does give a slight dps boost (will become even harder to maintain ammo) but on a single target you lose approx ~ 100 dps off your average i've done about 15 parses using tons of different combo to see if and how i can increase the damage . in short not worth it

i have a feeling this might be the case. even if it does indeed increase dps, it won't be by much and most likely not enough to warrant a mass shift to a new hybrid spec like the saboteur/dirty fighting hybrid is to gunslingers.

 

I feel like your arguments aren't enough to persuade me to try it in a raid when DPS isn't a problem without some long parses that show a DPS gain with a hybrid spec. 20k demo rounds during Kephess the Undying is a lot of damage to give up for something untested.

 

Your claim, your thread, your burden of proof. I'll happily concede I'm wrong when you can demonstrate it beats a full 31 point gunnery.

that's what i mean about what you've missed from my post.

 

i'm not claiming anything. at all. i haven't even had a chance to login yet to test it out.

you're only wrong in the sense that you're saying i'm wrong... when i'm just opening a discussion.

[CJNJ]

Seeing as this is on the topic of meh hybrids. How does the damage/ammo difference look between Curtain of fire and Demo round vs ionic Accelerator, slight HiB buff, and IR and plasma cell? I know the hybrids are generally bad but how much do you get hurt in a hybrid like this? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800ZMIkbRrzozZfGMbzu.2

[Gyronamics]

Seeing as this is on the topic of meh hybrids. How does the damage/ammo difference look between Curtain of fire and Demo round vs ionic Accelerator, slight HiB buff, and IR and plasma cell? I know the hybrids are generally bad but how much do you get hurt in a hybrid like this? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800ZMIkbRrzozZfGMbzu.2

 

Logic is insane.

 

You just bought grav rounds but your ammo regen demands the use of charged bolts.

[ArchangelLBC]

 

that's what i mean about what you've missed from my post.

 

i'm not claiming anything. at all. i haven't even had a chance to login yet to test it out.

you're only wrong in the sense that you're saying i'm wrong... when i'm just opening a discussion.

 

Your original post in a nutshell: "Here's a spec I heard about. Here's what you gain, here's what you give up, I think extra hard hits for HiB and ammo refund from High Friction Bolts is enough, combined with incendiary round, to make up for the things you lose."

 

My response in a nutshell: "Demo Round will give better damage than IR + Buffed HiB in my opinion, and ammo management doesn't honestly seem any better since you have to use IR for High Friction Bolts and that negates the ammo saved"

 

You're wrong for not continuing the discussion. 3 ammo spent on IR to gain 1 ammo back when you use HiB is, as far as I can tell, mostly a zero sum game compared to using Demo Round on cooldown.

 

Seeing as this is on the topic of meh hybrids. How does the damage/ammo difference look between Curtain of fire and Demo round vs ionic Accelerator, slight HiB buff, and IR and plasma cell? I know the hybrids are generally bad but how much do you get hurt in a hybrid like this? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800ZMIkbRrzozZfGMbzu.2

 

Sup CJuice?

 

Honestly I think the biggest problem with that spec is ammo management. If you use IR at all you're basically a gunnery commando without cell charger (see my argument above), so you're going to start running into ammo issues pretty quickly. Your points in Sweltering heat and soldier's endurance are also pretty wasted in a PVE setting.

 

If we're talking PVP, then sure why the hell not? Your spec has Full Auto hitting like a truck (I always loathe assault spec Full Autos compared to gunnery), and if you can actually get off 3 Charged Bolts without being shut down then your high impact bolts are going to hit like a freaking truck, and you'll be able to reset them, though you'd have to get off three CBs inbetween if you want that 30% damage boost again. Still more burst is more burst. If you stay alive for any length of time though ammo is seriously gonna be hurting you I think.

[Gyronamics]

No!

 

You get the bonus to HiB from firing Grav which builds stacks of Charged Barrel.

 

You proc HiB by firing Charged Bolts.

 

Like I said, totally insane.

[oaceen]

Your original post in a nutshell: "Here's a spec I heard about. Here's what you gain, here's what you give up, I think extra hard hits for HiB and ammo refund from High Friction Bolts is enough, combined with incendiary round, to make up for the things you lose."

only with regards to ammo

 

My response in a nutshell: "Demo Round will give better damage than IR + Buffed HiB in my opinion, and ammo management doesn't honestly seem any better since you have to use IR for High Friction Bolts and that negates the ammo saved"

 

You're wrong for not continuing the discussion. 3 ammo spent on IR to gain 1 ammo back when you use HiB is, as far as I can tell, mostly a zero sum game compared to using Demo Round on cooldown.

IR is 18s and HIB/DR are 15

 

unless you're really bad at clipping dots, you're getting more ammo (albeit i probably should have mentioned in the OP that it's not that much. really that statement was just there to play devil's advocate with my initial impression that the hybrid cost more ammo than full gunnery)

 

also, i never said the damage was more. i said this:

• incendiary round and over 100% armor penetration with high impact bolt. i reckon that together, these two must account for the ~12-17% lost from demo round and field training for this spec to be worth it
  

 

 

i apologize for not posting any logs. i still haven't had a chance to login yet (hopefully at the weekend)

like i said in a previous post, i think it'll just be something fun to try, but i don't see it being overwhelmingly better than full gunnery if it's even better at all. i'm not trying to sell this spec. i haven't even tried it yet; i was mostly interested to see if others had tried it out already and/or if anyone else was interested in trying it out.

[oaceen]

Seeing as this is on the topic of meh hybrids. How does the damage/ammo difference look between Curtain of fire and Demo round vs ionic Accelerator, slight HiB buff, and IR and plasma cell? I know the hybrids are generally bad but how much do you get hurt in a hybrid like this? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800ZMIkbRrzozZfGMbzu.2

 

this is very similar to the build i mentioned in the OP that i thought wasn't that great.

 

imo curtain of fire is much much better than ionic accelerator and going that far into gunnery just to boost the damage of HIB just isn't worth it IMO regardless of what cell you're in

[Skylarc]

Things may have changed since KP 16 NM was progression but I produced the most damage through a hybrid in the opposite direction. 0-11-30.

 

The reason for this was because of a glitch where having grab round allowed you to surpass the max armor pen a boss could have on him. If that is no longer the case it lessens the viability of the spec slightly, but it is still good none-the-less.

 

Keep up incendiary, grav round to 5 stacks and whenever it is about to fall. HiB and FA on cool down and charged bolts when ammo is high enough.

 

Much, MUCH more intensive to play than gunnery but if you can keep incend and grav's debuff up it's worth it.

 

Anyone else played this?

[ArchangelLBC]

only with regards to ammo

 

IR is 18s and HIB/DR are 15

 

unless you're really bad at clipping dots, you're getting more ammo (albeit i probably should have mentioned in the OP that it's not that much. really that statement was just there to play devil's advocate with my initial impression that the hybrid cost more ammo than full gunnery)

 

also, i never said the damage was more. i said this:

 

 

 

i apologize for not posting any logs. i still haven't had a chance to login yet (hopefully at the weekend)

like i said in a previous post, i think it'll just be something fun to try, but i don't see it being overwhelmingly better than full gunnery if it's even better at all. i'm not trying to sell this spec. i haven't even tried it yet; i was mostly interested to see if others had tried it out already and/or if anyone else was interested in trying it out.

 

See? Now we're having a discussion. I agree though I don't see the damage being that much of an advantage. I'm honestly not sold that the damage is even the same. Also I'm not sure that armor pen quite works like that. I always hear the VGs say how their apparent armor pen on HiB isn't as high as it looks.

 

Also seriously you lose demo round for burst phases which are of particular importance on pretty much all of the boss fights in TFB, as well as NiM Kephess.

 

Things may have changed since KP 16 NM was progression but I produced the most damage through a hybrid in the opposite direction. 0-11-30.

 

The reason for this was because of a glitch where having grab round allowed you to surpass the max armor pen a boss could have on him. If that is no longer the case it lessens the viability of the spec slightly, but it is still good none-the-less.

 

Keep up incendiary, grav round to 5 stacks and whenever it is about to fall. HiB and FA on cool down and charged bolts when ammo is high enough.

 

Much, MUCH more intensive to play than gunnery but if you can keep incend and grav's debuff up it's worth it.

 

Anyone else played this?

 

A big thing that has changed is that armor debuffs on the target do not stack, so having a guardian and a gunslinger and a commando just isn't the same as it used to be. You can reduce 20% of their armor. That's it.

 

Also, now AP and Sticky Grenade are on separate cooldowns which makes AP a lot more attractive imo.

 

I dunno, I don't run assault in PVE. You'd have to ask Gyro.

[Skylarc]

A big thing that has changed is that armor debuffs on the target do not stack, so having a guardian and a gunslinger and a commando just isn't the same as it used to be. You can reduce 20% of their armor. That's it.

 

Also, now AP and Sticky Grenade are on separate cooldowns which makes AP a lot more attractive imo.

 

I dunno, I don't run assault in PVE. You'd have to ask Gyro.

 

All I needed to know. I will have to check AP's damage on dummy's but that is so much more of a viable spec because of that. Step away from the game for 10 months and your back to level 1.

[Gyronamics]

Stacking grav is worthless if you're not in gunnery.

 

It's worthless because getting stacks of grav is not the point.

 

The point is the 25% boost on demo round, the 30% boost on HiB, proccing CoF.

 

A 20% armour debuff is nothing special, you gain about 8% damage on kinetic and energy attacks but you've lost so much more damage by then spending a ton of ammo on incendiary round which ignores armour anyway!

[ArchangelLBC]

Stacking grav is worthless if you're not in gunnery.

 

It's worthless because getting stacks of grav is not the point.

 

The point is the 25% boost on demo round, the 30% boost on HiB, proccing CoF.

 

A 20% armour debuff is nothing special, you gain about 8% damage on kinetic and energy attacks but you've lost so much more damage by then spending a ton of ammo on incendiary round which ignores armour anyway!

 

That depends on whether or not your raid has an armor debuff. If you're using 2 sentinels, 1 commando, and 1 sage DPS, with two shadow tanks, then that armor debuff makes all the difference in the world (talking 8 man obviously). You've said yourself Gyro that assault does much better for you when there's someone else there to lower the armor.

 

Whether or not it's just better to go full gunnery at that point is a different question of course, and obviously I'd prefer to just be full gunnery, but that's me.

[Gyronamics]

Yes, all classes without a debuff gain damage when there is one.

 

But slightly more damage on grav rounds isn't the reason you fire grav rounds yourself, it's the massive buffs to damage it gives to FA, HiB and DR.

 

So it's a buffing attack.

 

Incendiary is another buffing attack but only if you go high enough in the Assault tree which that build does not.

 

So it's taking both buffing attacks but totally missing the point of both and proccing either nothing or wasting talent points.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Gyronamics

[ArchangelLBC]

Yes, all classes without a debuff gain damage when there is one.

 

But slightly more damage on grav rounds isn't the reason you fire grav rounds yourself, it's the massive buffs to damage it gives to FA, HiB and DR.

 

So it's a buffing attack.

 

Incendiary is another buffing attack but only if you go high enough in the Assault tree which that build does not.

 

So it's taking both buffing attacks but totally missing the point of both and proccing either nothing or wasting talent points.

 

He didn't post the exact spec but I figured it was an assault build that forgoes with AP in favor of grav round. So you're buffing everyone's damage (assuming no other armor debuff in the group) and the "only" thing you're missing from Assault is AP (I have no clue what the dmg% contribution of AP is so I don't know net effect on raid DPS). I would assume you take all the other PVE oriented talents in the assault tree, so what it buffs it still more or less buffs, or do you think he's running it in AP-cell?

 

Either way I think we both agree it's past the time when it's viable (again unless your raid NEEDS that armor debuff, but then I stand by full gunnery in that case).

 

The other spec isn't so bad since you use Grav Round to proc curtain of fire to reset HiB (same internal CD, but lower overall chance to proc IA). The akilles heel for that spec to me is still the ammo issues, though in practice it almost certainly will have even more weaknesses.