Guarding the Healers

[Darth_Dreselus]

I always hit the big DPS with Guard, and understand what you are talking about, but do you know how many Guardian DPS do not use Focused Defense to help keep their threat down?

 

And do you know how many tanks uses Focused Defences as a defensive cd? =D it's mind boggling.

 

Either way, same as the OP I have given up on explaining threat mechanics to anyone other than a guildie and generally don't care if a tank guards me as a healer, sometimes I turn the guard off which once resulted in the tank putting the guard on me about 10 times in a Fp. It was hilarious, poor guy must have thought it's broken or something.

[OlosBC]

on my merc heal i puled agro lots of times off tank depending on a grup build my merc have 61-63 gear most of hm fp in a grup with columi players i will pull agro easy

 

You'll pull agro on things that haven't been hit yet. Or things you're dpsing (I usually easily clear out a few wreak mobs with my sorc healing). Or if the tank is afk I guess.

 

Only time I've ever seen heals rip a target off a tank is phase 2 TFB, and even there, only happens for the first 20 seconds.

[DarknessInLight]

And do you know how many tanks uses Focused Defences as a defensive cd? =D it's mind boggling.

 

Try using that in the middle of LR-5 on LIHM and watch what happens......pure hilarity ensues as the team gets ripped apart. LOL.

[OlosBC]

 

Amusing fact: I once had a tank tell me to "stop taunting"... on a sentinel...

 

 

I always hit the big DPS with Guard, and understand what you are talking about, but do you know how many Guardian DPS do not use Focused Defense to help keep their threat down?

 

Any weak mob is globaled. Max 3 gcds on a strong(unless someone does a knock back when I hit sweep). A strong or champion, I can force stasis or the tank can stop being terrible and taunt. On a boss I'll usually blow a defensive cool down on agro before focused defense, which will eat up half+ of my resource bar, not to mention, it WONT drop threat after you pull.

 

I mean, I'll use it on an ops boss maybe, if I'm playing vigilance (and thus getting increased damage redux for it) but don't usually bother in fps.

[DarknessInLight]

 

Any weak mob is globaled. Max 3 gcds on a strong(unless someone does a knock back when I hit sweep). A strong or champion, I can force stasis or the tank can stop being terrible and taunt. On a boss I'll usually blow a defensive cool down on agro before focused defense, which will eat up half+ of my resource bar, not to mention, it WONT drop threat after you pull.

 

I mean, I'll use it on an ops boss maybe, if I'm playing vigilance (and thus getting increased damage redux for it) but don't usually bother in fps.

 

I was just pointing out the fact that Guardian Tanks should NOT be using Focused Defense when trying to hold aggro. Kind of pointless seeing as how the Tank is trying to hold aggro and FD is a threat cooldown. It can be enough to allow a dps to pull aggro off of the tank.

[Brutal]

You'll pull agro on things that haven't been hit yet. Or things you're dpsing (I usually easily clear out a few wreak mobs with my sorc healing). Or if the tank is afk I guess.

 

Only time I've ever seen heals rip a target off a tank is phase 2 TFB, and even there, only happens for the first 20 seconds.

today on li lr5 droid i pulled agro off rakata/columi jug on secend boss it just became a joke on normal ads or spowned its normal with first heal but its only becos tank didint build agro on columi tank im pulling boss mid fight if i dps and heal so most of times in random hm i just heal to avoid pointless conversations

and yea i do pull agro in tfb but only for few sec

Edited January 18, 2013 by Brutal

[OlosBC]

 

I was just pointing out the fact that Guardian Tanks should NOT be using Focused Defense when trying to hold aggro. Kind of pointless seeing as how the Tank is trying to hold aggro and FD is a threat cooldown. It can be enough to allow a dps to pull aggro off of the tank.

 

The post I was responding to, you were talking about DPS guardians, not tanks.

[Khevar]

Because HM fp are so terribly difficult, and this is such a life or death issue.

HA! True, true.

 

The one thing that bothers me is just the lack of understanding of what is happening with threat mechanics.

 

When I first made my shadow tank and started running HM FPs (some time ago), I actually decided to try and understand this argument from a purely practical perspective. I didn't guard ANYONE and tried to hold all the aggro all the time.

 

I discovered that without using guard at all, I could keep mobs off of the healer. Even with dps that had gold fever. Using aoe abilities at the right time, as well as aoe taunts and single target taunts, I could keep the healer safe, even during an accidental double-group pull.

 

Sure, sometimes aggro would slip, but if I saw someone attacking the healer, I could grab it back very quickly, keeping some of my threat abilities off of cd so I could use them when needed.

 

On the flipside, if I were ever grouped with a dps that could really bring the pain, that dps would pull off of me, and I would have to blow cooldowns keeping aggro off the dps. Cooldowns which were then not available to keep the healer safe.

 

When I guard the dps that is puling off of me, magically things get easier. O.o

 

Anyone who is campaigning to always guard the healer makes me shake my head.

[mikebevo]

Anyone who is campaigning to always guard the healer makes me shake my head.

No clue what server you are on, but if it is The Harbinger, you always have a healer willing to go with you. I hate when people guard me even in those few times in Ops when guarding the healer actually helps. I never say anything, but I hate guard on the healer. No clue why.

 

Also now I really don't care if the tank and the dps let the mobs attack me, but where were you when I was a lowly fresh 50 healer and didn't have the gear/knowledge to fend for myself?

[sumuser]

As a tank I always guard the healer... Not because I think that's a good use of my guard but because I'm just sick and tired of dps'ers telling me, "don't need the guard bro put it on player x".

 

Yeah, I could argue... But why? I really don't care if I use guard or not. If it makes a healer feel better I'll put it on them... If some "omg omg leet über DPS'er" wants to throw a tantrum and try and "school" me on why they should have it, I put it on them. Whatever it takes to shut the noobs up so we can get to killing

[RikuvonDrake]

The one and only time I put guard on a healer is when I do a random flashpoint with a friend as a healer, then I don't want him to die and I don't give a damn about any of the DPS. It's not like holding aggro in a flashpoint is any challenge for a tank that knows how to play. However when I que alone if GF I look at the different DPS and guard the one I assume is going to have the highest threat generation, because he will take aggro from one or two adds in large packs regardless of what I do. Edited January 18, 2013 by RikuvonDrake

[Khevar]

No clue what server you are on, but if it is The Harbinger, you always have a healer willing to go with you. I hate when people guard me even in those few times in Ops when guarding the healer actually helps. I never say anything, but I hate guard on the healer. No clue why.

 

Also now I really don't care if the tank and the dps let the mobs attack me, but where were you when I was a lowly fresh 50 healer and didn't have the gear/knowledge to fend for myself?

LOL. I was probably a lowly fresh 50 dps doing a terrible job and wondering why I kept wiping at the shielded turrets in False Emperor

 

[IAmViiOLENT]

See, thing I hate about that "use your aggro drops and you'll never have a problem!" argument, is that as a combat sent/carnage mara, almost half of your damage is fit inside of a 4.5s window. I can drop aggro the first time I take aggro, and if they're a bad tank, continue to continually rip their aggro at every gore window... as you can imagine, its quite aggravating. "GUARD DA HEALER HURR DURR"

 

No.

[sripakdee]

As a healer id say. if the groups dps stink, by all means, guard the healer, it aint gonna do any good anywhere else so you might aswell. But if you get a group where the dps actually know what they are doing. please, guard the dps most likely to pull off the tank. the more targets the tank sucessfully tanks, my job as a healer gets easier.

 

This being said, I will often make my opinion known to tanks that guard me since as a general rule i find it a tad useless in Hm FP. I did have this discussion with a tank once, and damn that fellow got really quite pissed as me. Thing that fellow didnt realize though is, there is only 3 ways I, as a healer, can pull off a tank (maybe a few more i cant be arsed to remember).

 

1. I **** up and put my heals down too early and get threat on targets before the tanks get the chance.

2. i use cc too early and get aggro from pulling (ie i **** up)

3. the tank blows and tanks 1 target at the time. wont take long for me to get aggro in that case (provided the dps dont help ofc)

 

In essence. as peeps have been saying all along. In most cases guard the DPS, please. (ofc, if you can hold aggro without guards, this thread isnt meant for u in the fist place )

 

however, when im tanking with a guild healer. My rulebook might change, just to troll them

[DarknessInLight]

As a tank I always guard the healer... Not because I think that's a good use of my guard but because I'm just sick and tired of dps'ers telling me, "don't need the guard bro put it on player x".

 

The whole point to Guard is to drop threat on a specific player. Most of the time, that player is going to be the DPS with the largest amount of health. If, as a healer, you need to be Guarded, either you're doing something wrong, or the tank is.

[thomasbaxter]

I'm a healer and don't get why I'd need a guard when I just put one on myself. I use the guard for when a team mate's health starts to plummet and I can't keep the heals up lol. Buys me time.

[Khevar]

I'm a healer and don't get why I'd need a guard when I just put one on myself. I use the guard for when a team mate's health starts to plummet and I can't keep the heals up lol. Buys me time.

Guard is a tanking ability:

http://www.torhead.com/ability/dtjFr6u/guard

 

You're thinking of Force Armor:

http://www.torhead.com/ability/7f44Gd0/force-armor

[thomasbaxter]

Sorry beg ur pardon lol. That said the fact I didn't know the diff only shows more that I've never needed it

[CommanderKeeva]

When you're queuing up for random HM flashpoints, I would guard the person who is best geared, even if it's a healer. Most HM FP are tuned for around 300-400 hps, which is less than 1/3 of what a healer can heal, and they'll be spending the other 2/3 of the time DPSing.

 

This happened to my Scoundrel healer once in False Emperor. Had a really ****** tank and two very badly geared DPS. I put SRM on the tank, then started damaging the boss, pulled aggro right off him. Used Surrender, then pulled aggro again 5 seconds later.

 

Sometimes healers are the best DPS because they can keep the group alive while tanking the boss.

[sumuser]

I'm a healer and don't get why I'd need a guard when I just put one on myself. I use the guard for when a team mate's health starts to plummet and I can't keep the heals up lol. Buys me time.

 

I totally agree man. But the players I find in HM FPs have a very different game IQ then many of you guys. I throw my guard on the mara / assassin / jugg I get the, "don't worry about me bro, put the guard on the guy wearing tionese". Now, I know and you know guard is about reducing threat so the guy who hits the hardest (especially maras) benefit from guard. But I don't give two craps about having to explain that in a FP that I could 2-man with companions. So, I just guard the healer and everybody smiles.

[RandomXChance]

As someone who spends 90% of the time tanking, I agree with you in general. The only ones who occasionally pull from me in guild ops will be our full Dread Guard Marauders. Even then it is not that often. When I do a HM FP pug and some ranged DPS thinks they are so awesome and demand the guard I find it funny. More often than not, they pull aggro simply due to the fact that they start the pull before I do. I find that 80% of aggro issues are poorly behaved DPS. Pulling first and not burning the weak and the adds first so they end up mobbing the healer.

 

I tend to be dynamic about who i guard, Start with it on melee DPS. DPS that pulls before me gets no guard and it goes on healer since I can see that this is going to be a problem group. You have to guage the group and see where it will do the most good.

[ladwar]

As someone who spends 90% of the time tanking, I agree with you in general. The only ones who occasionally pull from me in guild ops will be our full Dread Guard Marauders. Even then it is not that often. When I do a HM FP pug and some ranged DPS thinks they are so awesome and demand the guard I find it funny. More often than not, they pull aggro simply due to the fact that they start the pull before I do. I find that 80% of aggro issues are poorly behaved DPS. Pulling first and not burning the weak and the adds first so they end up mobbing the healer.

 

I tend to be dynamic about who i guard, Start with it on melee DPS. DPS that pulls before me gets no guard and it goes on healer since I can see that this is going to be a problem group. You have to guage the group and see where it will do the most good.

 

yes but im betting u are better geared then most tanks. i know when i dps if don't have a guard i pull the boss alot even when i drop aggro correctly and thats where i want the guard so i normally ask for guard on weaker tanks long before any boss. i never seen a fresh tionese tank hold aggro aganst me without guarding me and sometimes even then i have to really turn down the dps to give the tank a chance to hold aggro. yes i play the good dps and wait for tanks unless they take a long time(ie me sitting for 4minutes or more wait on the tank) or its clear they don't know how to tank and most mobs at not a big deal.

 

when i play on alts that are not as geared i do often see the right dps not get guard(ie sent/mara pulling aggro like crazy on the boss while the healer is guard who has 16k). i do see that guarding a heal is ok sometimes but its more of a buffer for the tank to help manage aggro and usally not needed unless there a good size difference in gear and imo something is better then nothing.

 

i do note that all tank should have target of target up. if u lose aggro it show to who so u know who u need to guard if u are not guarding already just to give u that extra buffer in threat when the boss fight comes.

[mcslack]

So i do pretty much all PUG FPs because our guild is new and nobody wants to do them. If im understanding it correctly, the shield adds a damage red./ pretection. Im a sage and the Pug tanks r always shielding me( great ill take it lol). But theres so many MDPS that think there Bruce Lee they get melted faster than i can heal(is that my inexperience or theres?).

On the main point here, if those Bruce Lees get the shield it prob help them and keep me from having to heal so fast as to get the aggro?

[kanare]

there is only 2 reasons to garding healers , 1 being pvp the 2nd 1 , is if you are doing 16 man tfb hard mode , there threat is 100% when you go in to him , and they can pull of tanks if they are spam healing at the start , if they are unlcuky and doing loads of healing "" but this is only in 16 man for some reason never seen in 8 man rest of time best dps , gets it inless you want to kill them ....

[Hovergame]

In Operations, I put my guard on a DPS. Inspiration + Adrenal at the start of the fight could cost me a taunt, and I don't like to waste them.

In FP's, I guard the healer. Just to prevent problems with adds, if the group isn't really good.