When will you ballance Healers ?

[Pannther]

I have a level 50 Sage and Bounty Hunter, and i think that the Sage is allot better at healing.

I love healing, but im forced to play a class, that playstile i dont realy like.

What i dont understand is, why they dont fix it. Its a known isue.

 

So i have question to the dev. team. And that is:

When will you ballance Healers ? WiIl it be when the expansion launches ? Or sooner or later, or mybe never ?

[Niytshade]

I don't think one is really "better" than the other overall. I've been told sages/sorcs are considered better ops healers because of their aoe heal, where as bh/trooper and ops/scoundrels are more tank healers. I have a 50 operative healer and I have a friend who is a sorc healer and we pretty much seem to be even except for what my friend calls the "shiny ball of epic healing goodness". I haven't tested my healing in an ops yet so I can't really say which is stronger.

[Kitru]

I have a level 50 Sage and Bounty Hunter, and i think that the Sage is allot better at healing.

 

You've pretty much shot yourself in the foot by saying that you "think" Sage is a lot better at healing, rather than having proven it or learned it from some outside source. You've got no proof and are only using a vague heuristic to gauge superiority, especially since few people will actually agree with you.

 

In all honesty, the healers are remarkably well balanced, as are the tanks. The only role that is really lacking in balance between all classes and specs is DPS, because you'll see Scoundrel DPS pulling 1600 DPS at the top end and Sent/VG/GS DPS pulling in excess of 2.1k at *their* top end.

 

This isn't to say that there isn't some degree of discrepancy. Commando healers are actually, from a class comparison perspective, the worst healers in the game: they've got the de facto worst AoE healing (if you only count Kolto Cloud, Scoundrels are technically the absolute worst, but that's more than made up by the ability to roll HoTs on the some or all of a group with remarkable ease and efficiency; no one is likely to argue that Salvation doesn't just blow every other AoE heal out of the water though) and ST healing on par with the other healers (Scoundrels can actually manage slightly better ST healing over longer period of time). Commandos aren't even the most mobile healers, which would serve as a decided advantage in many situations, because they're so reliant on hardcasting. The only thing they do better than the other classes is provide tangential buffs to go along with their heals, which provided them with a substantial benefit back at release, but those buffs have were nerfed such that they're almost negligible (3% additional healing received to 4-8 allies consistently and 5% DR with, at best, 33-50% uptime). It doesn't help that Commandos also have the most debilitating resource management.

 

All-in-all, it means that Commandos are the nominally worst healers, but the difference in performance isn't appreciably large enough to make it a major concern: the difference in performance is small enough that variations in skill between a commando and a sage or scoundrel are going to have a larger impact than the class differences, though this is often exacerbated by the fact that Commandos require the most practice and skill to be effective with as healers (thanks largely to having to use SCC regularly and more complex ammo management than Scoundrels or Sages).

[Pannther]

Sages savation is the king of heals in ops and i realy dont know why the Commando and Scoundrel AOE heal affect only 4 players and not 8 as the Sages...

[Kitru]

Sages savation is the king of heals in ops and i realy dont know why the Commando and Scoundrel AOE heal affect only 4 players and not 8 as the Sages...

 

Yes, Salvation is the single best heal in the game, but AoE healing, especially when it's based on standing in a given area for an extended period of time, isn't the only thing that matters in an ops. ST healing is *way* more important than AoE healing which is why Sages can get away with "holy crap!" levels of AoE healing without being overpowered, especially when said AoE healing can be pretty easily ruined by a boss dropping some AoE right in the middle of it. Sages are excellent healers, but the difference in performance you seem to see isn't *nearly* as large as you're making it out to be: a well played Commando is going to be infinitely better than a marginally played Sage (except for a few fights like the first boss in EV where AoE healing means *way* more than it does in virtually any other fight in the game).

[Chaqen]

From a single target burst perspective, i have always felt that the sage/sorc was the weakest with the majority of their heals being small quick casts, or channels, while the big heal is rather slow compared to the other two healers. While a merc is able to pump out a large amount of healing in a single period of time through the usage of CDs and quicker casts, even though they screw over their heat doing so. An OP is able to push out rather large heals with decent cast times, or smaller heals with instants, while not having to worry to much about their energy with the ability to quickly regenerate it.

 

When it comes to our kills on NiM Kephess, my guild have used every healer; we have used merc/sorc, merc/op, op/op, sorc/op... we have tired with sorc/sorc but it didnt work to well for us based on the fact that they couldnt keep up with the burst healing on the trandoshian phase and the lack of a strong aoe that a OP and merc both have access to help minimize the length of that phase.

[Darth_Dreselus]

While all healers have their strengths and weaknesses (which makes sense, otherwise there would be no point in 3 different healing classes), they are all capable of healing pretty much anything the game has to throw at them. It is up to the raid group to realise those strengths and weaknesses and assign roles accordingly.

 

For instance my guild runs Sage (me) and a Commando in most NiM EC runs. On Toth and Zorn we usually have Sage on Toth and Commando on Zorn which plays into the classes' strengths. Just last week, however, some of our DPS were MIA so I switched to DPS and we ended up with 2 Commando healers, the Commando that heals Zorn went to heal Toth and the 'new' Commando healed Zorn. The Toth Commando merely remarked 'this actually takes effort' and we downed them without issues. ST as a Sage also isn't too shabby easily pulling 1600-1700 HPS sustained and over 2k burst.

 

As a Sage I also prefer Commandos over Scoundrels as my partner healer due to Kolto Residue and a second set of armour buff in the group. In fact the main weakness of Scoundrels is having no way of lowering or preventing damage on their targets. A Scoundrel without UH is actually worse than both Sage or Commando in terms of instant/fast heals in emergencies.

 

The Importance of Salvation is often overestimated. While HM FP's can be healed purely by Salvations, in Ops there aren't that many fights where it is fully utilised and it often ends being an overheal, or worse a wasted pool of Force that nobody is standing in. My strategy on HM Dread Guard is simply "I don't care if you are ranged, just stack up on Heirad so I can AoE heal you and focus on the tanks."

Edited January 15, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[Chaqen]

 

"I don't care if you are ranged, just stack up on Heirad so I can AoE heal you and focus on the tanks."

You're actually creating a situation where you have more raid wide damage (chain lighting does more damage more targets it hit), and hence making the effectiveness/need for your salvation even higher.

[wargonglok]

Sages are best aoe heals, keeping entire ops up, mercs are the best burst healers: in a short amount of time they can pump out a buttload of health with scg, ops are really good at keeping people from dying.

 

2 sages, 2 mercs 2 ops, if you have 2 of one class, you will fail.

 

sages are a good backbone to a healing duo though

[Darth_Dreselus]

You're actually creating a situation where you have more raid wide damage (chain lighting does more damage more targets it hit), and hence making the effectiveness/need for your salvation even higher.

 

No, what I am doing there is being lazy.

[Kitru]

A Scoundrel without UH is actually worse than both Sage or Commando in terms of instant/fast heals in emergencies.

 

A Scoundrel without UH stacks is a bad Scoundrel: you should always maintain at least 1 stack for the +6% healing and the basic rotation is UM>EMP repeated back and forth, the first of which generates a UH stack and the second of which consumes it. If you're throwing out SRMs like you should be, you'll also find yourself drowning in UH stacks because you have a chance whenever one of them ticks that you'll generate a UH stack (with a 4.5 sec CD, I've gone from no UH stacks to 3 stacks during a burst healing phase where I was just spamming UM>EMP because I had 2 stacks of SRP rolling on both tanks).

 

From a burst healing perspective, a Scoundrel can maintain better ST throughput for longer than either a Sage *or* a Commando, it's just predicated on the Scoundrel actually knowing what they're doing: rolling HoTs, maintaining Pugnacity and at least 1 stack of UH, and keeping above 60 Energy (which is absurdly easy with Pugnacity and the alternating UM>EMP "rotation"). This biggest reason for all of this is that a Commando's burst healing is predicated upon SCC being up, which can't really be maintained permanently, whereas a Scoundrel's is pretty much always going to be UH stack neutral or better and a lot more resource neutral than a Commando's (since EMP's only "cost" is the UH stack).

 

Like I said, the only thing that Commandos really have going for them as healers are the now anemic tangential buffs: the armor buff is nice but not necessary (it doesn't stack with the armor buffs that the tanks get via spec and stance, so its value actually varies with the given tank; for a Shadow tank, it's almost imperceptibly small), not to mention that it's also brought by Sages who can keep it on both tanks with ease (6 sec CD with 15 sec duration) which, to prevent wasting the HoT, they really should be doing anyway; Kolto Residue increases healing received by 3% which isn't really all that impressive since most tanks already get 1% from the legacy buff and it's small enough that most people won't notice. The only really *good* buff they bring is Charged Armor (SCC w/ Kolto Bomb) which provides a 5% flat DR buff, though it can't be maintained constantly thanks to SCC's downtime.

 

This isn't to say that Commandos are bad; it's just that, when properly played, a Commando is outclassed in ST healing by Scoundrels and outclassed in AoE healing by *both* Sage and Scoundrel. Pretty much every major function a Commando tries to do is actually done better by a Scoundrel. The only thing they bring is tangential and not really all that impressive.

 

Of course, this also isn't saying that Commandos are worthless: a well played Commando is world's better than a mediocre Sage or a mediocre Scoundrel. The problem is that, when played optimally against other optimal healers, they're the worst contributors. The heal classes are balanced close enough that it's not really a *major* concern, but it's just big enough that most Commandos realize that they're mechanically inferior.

 

The best metaphor is that Commandos are the Guardian tanks of the healer ACs: a well played Guardian tank can run through any content without any problems, but most of them know that they're mechanically weaker tanks than either of the others, which is pretty much the same with Commandos.

[Kitru]

mercs are the best burst healers: in a short amount of time they can pump out a buttload of health with scg

 

I've actually checked my Scoundrel against a Commando and come away with better burst healing so that isn't really true. A Scoundrel can generate better burst healing than a Commando, can maintain that throughput for a longer period, and require the presence of a partial uptime buff to do it.

[NotRonin]

Commando/Merc have one advantage over a sorc or operative healer : damage dealing. By taking the 1 point talent in power shot activation reduction, you have a 12 second window to do damage like a DPS without generating any heat. If your DPS power is lacking, it can be the difference between winning and wiping.

 

Back when my guild was clearing HM EC, I do over 600k heal and 100k dps during the Kephess fight. My damage contribution was what allowed us to avoid the 4th bomber. Now days we stop DPSing on the 2nd walker phase to avoid Kephess coming down early in HM, but we're hitting hard enrage with 10% left with NiM Firebrand/Stormcaller with 2 sorc healers. Asking them to 'dps a bit' is not really an option for sorcs.

[Kitru]

Asking them to 'dps a bit' is not really an option for sorcs.

 

If you've got the resources and time to spend 10 seconds dumping Charged Bolts into a boss, your Sages should have time to toss some TkT and Weaken Mind. It's not really an advantage unique to Commandos (Scoundrels do quite well tossing some extra DPS in with Blaster Whip and Backblast, not to mention Freighter Flyby); Commandos are simply the most likely to do it because they already use Hammer Shot and SCC provides an explicit benefit to Charged Bolts (so that it's more obvious).

[Chaqen]

I have found dpsing on my Operative as a healer is far easier, and usually nets a higher amount of damage then when i have tired it on my merc. My Operative has a few talents to increase the damage and the tick rate of corrosive dart, and i am usually able to maintain the dot with ease even in some of the hardest fights. In the easier fights, i end up tossing out orbital strike on CD, as well as shiv and backstab when permitted. It also helps greatly when a good tank dont need much more then the hot rolling on them over half of the time.

[Darth_Dreselus]

A Scoundrel without UH stacks is a bad Scoundrel

 

It is very easy for a Scoundrel not to have UH during an unexpected pull. Sage will just Force Armour and start healing rotation. Commando has his AoE and instant heal to throw out. Scoundrels only options are to cast a 2s heal, or his AoE which is HoT ticking for 900 at most.

[Kitru]

It is very easy for a Scoundrel not to have UH during an unexpected pull. Sage will just Force Armour and start healing rotation. Commando has his AoE and instant heal to throw out. Scoundrels only options are to cast a 2s heal, or his AoE which is HoT ticking for 900 at most.

 

I'm curious what exactly you're talking about here. At best, I can only guess that you're referring to being unprepared for an unexpected pull and what the healer is capable of doing to immediately heal effectively, at which point a Scoundrel is fully capable of setting up SRM on the tank (which will start generating "free" UH stacks in short order) and then moving into UM>EMP rotation for ST healing or using Kolto Cloud if more than just the tank needs healing (keep in mind, Kolto Cloud doesn't generate UH stacks, only SRM ticks are capable of it) because it's not as if anyone should really need massive throughput healing as soon as a pull begins.

 

The fact that a Sage can put up Force Armor and start healing normally or that a Commando has a couple of instant casts capable of being thrown out right away doesn't really have anything to do with "an unexpected pull", since it's not as if any tank is going to die without being healed within the next GCD unless you simply weren't paying attention for the last 10 seconds. There's a rather large difference between an "unexpected pull" and "doing nothing for 10 seconds while the tank is being beat upon". It's also not as if it's really a balance concern to any extent either: if your tank is pulling before the healers are ready or the healers aren't paying attention, it's not a class balance concern; it's a pebkac issue so bringing it up has no real bearing.

[Darth_Dreselus]

I'm curious what exactly you're talking about here.

 

It was a general comment about FPs, I have often had a DPS pulling trash that the rest of the group skipped with both myself and the tank being out of position and having to backtrack (hence the term 'emergency'). I have always found myself lacking some way of stopping the DPS from rapidly losing HP. This could just be because I am so used to just throwing out Force Armour - Rejuvenate which is cca 6k buffer in 2 GCDs and there is just no way I can do that on my Scoundrel (obviously the numbers would not be so high due to gear discrepancy).

 

Before an actual pull and particularly on bosses I build up 4 stacks of UH (1 used by pugnacity) before the pull even starts.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[Kitru]

It was a general comment about FPs, I have often had a DPS pulling trash that the rest of the group skipped with both myself and the tank being out of position and having to backtrack (hence the term 'emergency').

 

I'm just curious why you bring this up exactly. It's such a painfully minor issue and not even a big deal when it occurs. It shouldn't even register as a blip on the balance comparison since it relies on a *specific* set of events that, honestly, shouldn't even really happen unless people are acting like idiots (if the DPS is new, it would behoove the group to take it slow and provide direction and/or be ready to head back at a moment's notice to help in the inevitable case that the DPS pulls; if the DPS is experienced, then they shouldn't have pulled and, honestly, should have the gear/CDs to tough it out until the group gets back). Of course, I've never really had the problem because I like to keep rolling SRM on myself even when it's not needed just for UH stack maintenance while we're running around through an FP so your point doesn't even really apply in all sense.

 

My general point with this is that it's not like healers are really balanced based upon their performance in FP centric edge case scenarios that rely upon multiple layers of screwing up. I'm generally too lazy/bored to forcibly start off most fights with my full 3 stacks and Pugnacity, but I wouldn't label myself as a bad Scoundrel. The comment was meant to indicate that any Scoundrel that's actual in the middle of a fight that doesn't have any UH stacks is a bad Scoundrel, just like I'll tell any VG tank without 4 stacks of Power Screen a bad tank: sure, the class can and likely will start off the fight without them, but it's what's going on when stuff is actually *happening* that matters as opposed to what state they're in when they're not in combat (even if there is an "unexpected pull").

[Darth_Dreselus]

unless people are acting like idiots

 

Yeah, sadly 'outhealing idiocy' is pretty common. And as to why I bring that up, what is the point comparing the healing capabilities outside of really tough situations. Just for fun I have healed an FP by binding most of my keyboard right of UHB randomly to UM/EMP/DS and proceeded to heal by random smacking of keyboard. And it worked. Similarly I have healed purely by Salvation and natural Force Regen and had a Commando heal without using a weapon. In 'all is well' cases all healing classes are massively OP. It is only in live-or-die situations that I see classes really shine through. Personal best is saving a derp Tank from 1 HP (yes a single HP) on TFB Tantrum.

[NotRonin]

I am not claiming that Merc/Commando has the best DPS of the healer, but they are the only one with a 0 resource use ability with supercharge gas + power shot. It means you can burst damage, and then revert to healing with full resource.

 

For Firesbrand/Stormcaller, the healer on Stormcaller is flat out just from healing the tank (no attack can be mitigated), and the sorc running on the ground have limited cast time. They can dps the adds during the shield phase, however they should be using the downtime for force regen. As a merc , Death from Above + fusion missile is 10k damage already, and explosive dart can be used on the move. If we need 100k extra damage, that's is possible for a merc but a very tough task for a pure heal-spec sorc,

[mikebevo]

Sages savation is the king of heals in ops and i realy dont know why the Commando and Scoundrel AOE heal affect only 4 players and not 8 as the Sages...

Yes, Salvation is the single best heal in the game, but AoE healing, especially when it's based on standing in a given area for an extended period of time, isn't the only thing that matters in an ops.

I respectfully disagree, Salvation is a great heal and has its moments where it is beyond useful, however in my highly bias opinion Emergency Medpac is the single greatest heal in the game. Instant, cost no energy always and when hitting someone below 30% it is completely free. Sages can keep their golden puddles of loving heals, I will keep Emergency Medpac.

 

Don’t take what I have written wrong, Sages are great healers, my usual group is my sawbones with a sage. I think they make a fantastic team, but I have also been through HM TfB with another sawbones and a commando. Commandos and sages both seem to compliment the sawbones abilities when working together. I personally believe the classes are well balanced when similarly geared and optimized. Looking at our group logs all seem to effectively heal about the same, I just have a extreme case of overhealing with my toon, but the logs I have seen from other sawbones seems that is just a class byproduct. Not concerned about it since my energy management is fine and getting better.

A Scoundrel without UH is actually worse than both Sage or Commando in terms of instant/fast heals in emergencies.

A scoundrel without at least one stack of upper hand during a fight isn’t much of a healer. That is not a class defect, that is the person either being lazy or not knowing their class. If the person is putting out HoTs and using Underworld Medicine, then they have upper hand.

 

It is very easy for a Scoundrel not to have UH during an unexpected pull. Sage will just Force Armour and start healing rotation. Commando has his AoE and instant heal to throw out. Scoundrels only options are to cast a 2s heal, or his AoE which is HoT ticking for 900 at most.

Almost every pull is a unexpected pull in my guild. I will set there getting three stacks of UH up and pugnacity rolling and I swear the guild is looking at my bar waiting for them to drop off before the pull.

 

If you are talking about someone pulling trash mobs by accident, I will cast Underworld medicine on whoever is taking damage first. Then I have UH and I am ready to roll. I can easily single heal trash fights in HM EC or HM TfB (except that one room). I regularly pull 2200 hps or more in 5 min long fights (I have pulled way higher, but the number in my head has to be wrong (mox had to get that number wrong last Sunday Night)) where I am single healing trash pulls. Trash pulls with the guild I never have UH up. I am usually coming out of stealth after CC'ing something in the back. I also sometimes get some very unexpected pull when I get spotted and the burst healing I am having to do is on myself. So even with no stacks of UH, a good scondrel will be at full stacks within a few seconds even if I have to use pistol whip to get there. (wait I sounded like I said I was good there, I am not. I am very average, but I know my class and I am working hard to get good. People in my guild and randoms in HMFP tell me I am good, but whatelse are you going to tell a healer).

Edited January 16, 2013 by mikebevo

[Omophorus]

2 sages, 2 mercs 2 ops, if you have 2 of one class, you will fail.

 

I take significant issue with this statement.

 

If you don't have 2 competent healers, you are far more likely to fail. Which healer class they are is largely immaterial.

 

Some combinations may require a greater or lesser degree of competence, but class balance and delta in healing specialties (burst, ST sustained, AoE) is not great enough to have an overwhelming impact group success.

 

More importantly, 2 healers, of any AC, who know how to heal together is what really makes the difference. Plus, small strategy tweaks from the entire group can easily compensate for any peculiarities of a given healing pair.

 

Certainly, a mixed pair of healers may bring certain advantages in that they can cover each others' weaknesses, but put simply no healer has enough weaknesses for it to really be a major problem.

 

I might not choose to take 2 Mercs/Commandos if given a choice, but as with Juggies/Guardians, that has more to do with the knowledge that the skill floor is enough higher that the percentage of people who can perform at a progression level is lower. I wouldn't refuse to lead a raid if the situation necessitated 2 Mercs/Commandos, but I would look for other options due to overall discontent with the caliber of the average (or even above average) player of those ACs.

[Kitru]

I respectfully disagree, Salvation is a great heal and has its moments where it is beyond useful, however in my highly bias opinion Emergency Medpac is the single greatest heal in the game. Instant, cost no energy always and when hitting someone below 30% it is completely free. Sages can keep their golden puddles of loving heals, I will keep Emergency Medpac.

 

The problem I have with EMP, even though it is energy free, is that it is a comparatively weak heal. You're not going to be able to keep a tank up when they've been reduced below 30% hp just by spamming EMP. Yes, it's fully free, but it's not really all that stellar as an individual heal. A majority of your actual healing as a Scoundrel comes from Underworld Medicine; the only reason it's *not* the "omg we love this heal" for most Scoundrels is because it's the precursor heal to using EMP and people tend to forget that, without UM, you wouldn't be doing *nearly* the same amount of EMP spam that you would otherwise: essentially, UM is shouldering the cost of both UM and EMP, so it's really fantastically amazing.

 

The reason why I say that Salvation is friggin' amazing, however, is because it's got an *incredibly* minute cost for the amount of healing that it can throw out, and, unlike pretty much every free heal out there, requires no set up (like EMP does), is not on a prohibitively long CD (like BI, which, considering how much it heals for, is on *way* too long of a CD), and doesn't just do a token amount of healing (like Hammer Shot and Diagnostic Scan). With only 20 ticks (2 targets hit for all 10 ticks), Salvation is the most cost and cast time effective heal in the game. When you increase that to 4 or 8, it just gets *even better*. Salvation is the de facto best heal, from a pure numerical standpoint, in the game. The people that scream about EMP being so amazing, especially since it refunds its cost when used on someone below 30% hp (not really a big deal imo since I would just rather not let my allies drop that low; pretty much the only time I find it even remotely useful is in Kephess p3 where the constant mobility is more important the the whole "free" aspect), don't really have much to compare to. EMP is nice, but it's not even close to the same level of potency as Salvation is: Salvation heals more for less and there's no much you can say to contradict that.

[mikebevo]

I take significant issue with this statement.

I missed that statement when I read the thread, but the statement just isn't true. I have gone on many ops with two sawbones in our guild. I actually find it easier to heal with 2 sawbones since I know her ablilites and range. We usually tell each which take we will focus on, but we still heal whoever needs it. Only time I miss a sage is after lightning Ciphas, Heirad, Kel'sara, but even that isn't a big deal. She will focus on healers and dps and I will hit tanks and throw a AOE and HoTs on mdps. We do not fail. My HPS are actually lower with 2 sawbones as I am not constantly having to hit the other sawbones with heals as we don't sacrifice health for energy.

 

The problem I have with EMP, even though it is energy free, is that it is a comparatively weak heal. You're not going to be able to keep a tank up when they've been reduced below 30% hp just by spamming EMP. Yes, it's fully free, but it's not really all that stellar as an individual heal. A majority of your actual healing as a Scoundrel comes from Underworld Medicine; the only reason it's *not* the "omg we love this heal" for most Scoundrels is because it's the precursor heal to using EMP and people tend to forget that, without UM, you wouldn't be doing *nearly* the same amount of EMP spam that you would otherwise: essentially, UM is shouldering the cost of both UM and EMP, so it's really fantastically amazing.

I agree with everything you wrote, but in that OMG moment, EMP followed by hitting relic, adrenal, another EMP and then UM and tank gone from 5% health to 100%. UM is great, but without EMP I never would have gotten to UM. Also love EMP because I can hit people with it even when marked with death by Kel’Sara. I can easily spam EMP on a tank long enough to get them out of danager (pretty sure the tank is doing something here too, like hitting a cooldown if possible), and then use UM to get them up to respetable numbers. Basically I feel if I can get in range of the tank taking damage to spam EMP with hopefully either relic, adrenal or both up, then the tank will not die. This may be false hope on my part, but it really seems to work in practice.

 

So I agree with everything you said, EMP is still in my opinion the best heal in the game. It covers up when me or the tank made a mistake.

 

Salvation heals more for less and there's no much you can say to contradict that.

 

Never was trying too. I was just stating my opinion. I would rather have EMP than Salvation. I think Salvation is a great heal makes Ciphas, Heirad, and Kel’Sara the lightning phase and the SOA platforms a breeze. Not saying people shouldn't think it is the best heal in the game. Just in my opinion I like EMP better. Even wrote it was a bias opinion, as my main is a sawbones.

Edited January 16, 2013 by mikebevo