Jugg Tanks could use a Small DPS Upgrade

[Zarrot]

With top geared DPS pulling 2000+, Jugg tanks could use a small upgrade to DPS to bring our threat output close to being in line with the current max DPS from BiS geared characters. It wouldn't need to be a large increase it just feels that it's getting more and more difficult to maintain over the last few updates and we are often walking a razors edge in some of these encounters.

[wadecounty]

I think this is common knowledge at this point. Really, they should've never nerfed Crushing Blow, if they kept it the way it was we'd be almost where we need to be (probably still behind the other tanks, but to a much smaller degree).

 

And the answer is not to add more high threat attacks, we already have as many if not more high threat attacks as other tanks, what we really need is damage. Whether it be to fix Crushing Blow or to completely redo the tree so the top part is more about mitigation and Soresu doesn't cripple Rage generation, either way, something's got to give.

[Ephesia]

I am hopeful that the new expansion and the new talents will buff the Defense / Immortal tree extensively, especially Guardian Slash and Hilt Strike needs to get higher threat generation as well as do more base damage, about 10% buff each. Hilt Strike also needs to have a shorter cooldown.

[Zarrot]

I think this is common knowledge at this point.

 

Yeah, I figured but I just thought I would add another log to the fire. One of the worst fights is the first boss in HM TfB if I'm not dead on perfect in my initial open or a DPS doesn't threat dump at the right time it so easy to lose agro and get early adds. The margin is so razor thing now. Even with the Agro boosts, buffed and stimed BiS gear DPS are generating DPS numbers that eclipse Tank threat gen and with fights like this where you have a DPS race and need all of it.... a 5-10% boost to overall DPS would likely even out the curve just enough so it's not so crazy.

[OlosBC]

Yeah, I figured but I just thought I would add another log to the fire. One of the worst fights is the first boss in HM TfB if I'm not dead on perfect in my initial open or a DPS doesn't threat dump at the right time it so easy to lose agro and get early adds. The margin is so razor thing now. Even with the Agro boosts, buffed and stimed BiS gear DPS are generating DPS numbers that eclipse Tank threat gen and with fights like this where you have a DPS race and need all of it.... a 5-10% boost to overall DPS would likely even out the curve just enough so it's not so crazy.

 

Throw a couple taunts in your rotation and you should be fine, you are correct that an agro drop on that fight is particularly bad though.

 

This is a bandaid fix though, I really don't like how the taunt mechanic works, and is basically required with some DPS (especially as a jugg/guard tank it seems. Really hoping they find some way to fix it in the expansion, some sort of activated mechanic that scales on damage taken would be nice, not sure how to work it in or keep it balanced though.

 

Well at least the expansion will reset stat scaling and bring tanks a bit closer to DPS, for a short time at least maybe.

[uziforyou]

I think this is common knowledge at this point. Really, they should've never nerfed Crushing Blow, if they kept it the way it was we'd be almost where we need to be (probably still behind the other tanks, but to a much smaller degree).

 

And the answer is not to add more high threat attacks, we already have as many if not more high threat attacks as other tanks, what we really need is damage. Whether it be to fix Crushing Blow or to completely redo the tree so the top part is more about mitigation and Soresu doesn't cripple Rage generation, either way, something's got to give.

 

I don't understand something implied here and that's that jugg's need more dps not more threat (even though it was actually stated as 'more high threat attacks').

 

Tank dps is incidental is it not? The important part is that a tank is able to maintain more threat than that posed by those doing the meaningful dps, or am I mistaken in that?

 

What I'm getting at in case it's not clear, if a tank's attacks are dishing out a requisite amount of threat to maintain aggro then any extra dps being applied by the tank is not particularly important. So if dps classes are out threatening the tank then I don't see a problem with simply increasing the threat generated by the tanks attacks and in fact would be more efficient than simply increasing the tanks dps.

 

Am I looking at this wrong?

[OlosBC]

Enrage timers are a mechanic in about every fight in this game. Thus, it is better to have additional damage than additional threat bonus.

 

If tank damage was inconsequential you could just spam taunt to hold threat from 40 seconds in through the rest of the fight.

 

Tanks (pt and sin at least ) do a bit less than half the damage of a DPS. Thus in an 8man, tanks, with the odd attack from a healer in low damage phase, effectively make up the 5th DPS.

 

Juggs do at least bring armor debuff (aoe no less) which contributes to group damage, especially on multi target fights where a group might not have several debuffers.

[Elyxin]

I don't understand something implied here and that's that jugg's need more dps not more threat (even though it was actually stated as 'more high threat attacks').

 

Tank dps is incidental is it not? The important part is that a tank is able to maintain more threat than that posed by those doing the meaningful dps, or am I mistaken in that?

 

What I'm getting at in case it's not clear, if a tank's attacks are dishing out a requisite amount of threat to maintain aggro then any extra dps being applied by the tank is not particularly important. So if dps classes are out threatening the tank then I don't see a problem with simply increasing the threat generated by the tanks attacks and in fact would be more efficient than simply increasing the tanks dps.

 

Am I looking at this wrong?

 

It's really more of an evolution of the threat mechanics that causes that perception Uz, and it's not just you. many people have mistakenly thought that threat is all that's important. they forget that most MMO's base threat off of....you guessed it...damage. 200% of nothing is still nothing. you need something as a base for the multiplier. increasing the multiplier is only one aspect of threat. Ignoring the other component (damage) is almost as bad as running full damage with no threat multiplier.

 

If you look at them as flip sides of the same coin, then it really doesn't matter from a 'threat' perspective which one you increase. But from a real world perspective of enrage timers, of variables you can't control, and of simple quality of life issues outside of smacking a big ugly with your glowy stick, threat itself matters squat. Damage is a much more flexible and viable variable then a threat multiplier. you can't threaten a mob to death, nor can threat heal you back, or kill a mob faster, or make you feel better with cool big numbers floating up on the screen (I know, those shouldn't matter, but they honestly do for many).

 

And threat multipliers don't scale well without....you guessed it...damage. if our damage stays the same, and everyone else goes up, then they have to increase the threat multiplier to compensate. it's allot of work when they can just give us more damage.

 

Plus I never saw the logic behind limiting a tanks damage due to threat. a balance between damage and mitigation for sure, but the other tanks shoot that theory into the dirt (they're mit's are comparable, but they do more damage). simply put...from a PvE perspective, there's absolutely no reason that you can't give a tank more DPS. At least as much as the other tanks can.

 

WoW (hate to use them, but they are the model that Bio went after in this game) realized after BC that the idea of limiting a tanks DPS was a waste of time...currently tank specs can do a surprising amount of damage over there (and there's no visible drawback so far, even after 3 expansions). this doesn't diminish the DPS classes because they still do much more then a tanks class, and their DPS is critical to an instance working well. There is no reason to limit a tanks damage production except to balance things out from a mitigation standpoint.

[Zarrot]

Throw a couple taunts in your rotation and you should be fine, you are correct that an agro drop on that fight is particularly bad though.

 

This is a bandaid fix though, I really don't like how the taunt mechanic works, and is basically required with some DPS (especially as a jugg/guard tank it seems. Really hoping they find some way to fix it in the expansion, some sort of activated mechanic that scales on damage taken would be nice, not sure how to work it in or keep it balanced though.

 

Well at least the expansion will reset stat scaling and bring tanks a bit closer to DPS, for a short time at least maybe.

 

Oh, I taunt my little heart out...and I'm comfortable that my rotation is down. (Been doing this since launch.) It's still very tight. Even with our threat boost, it feels like the ability of DPS with current gear to produce gaudy DPS is out racing our ability to generate TPS. It's not by a lot but it's enough to feel it.

[planet_J]

They could cut out the rage generation debuff in soresu to help out quite a bit...that would likely go a long way.

 

Also, a boost to crushing blow would make it worthwhile again, as it sits currently...impale is a better option for us mathematically. Also, our aoe threat generation is weak...we need a bigger buff to smash threat. It should be 150% threat to allow us to better keep things taunted.

 

Single target I don't lose too much aggro...but I have found using a might hilt and say...4 might armors with the rest being guardian keeps HP up enough, but allows more threat generation through better damage. It's really sad that we have to mix in some dps mods to keep threat up enough for tanking to be effective in raids...

[Eurynamous]

Or, instead of adding damage, they could increase the threat of every attack and reduce the cd of taunt. Instead of the "narrow cone attack" they could widen it to be a 180 degree attack.

 

Impale shouldn't be more useful than a tanking skill, damage isn't what needs to be raised, threat is. Added damage will just make the dps job a little more slack, which it doesn't need to be, even if it is a small increase.

[planet_J]

Or, instead of adding damage, they could increase the threat of every attack and reduce the cd of taunt. Instead of the "narrow cone attack" they could widen it to be a 180 degree attack.

 

Impale shouldn't be more useful than a tanking skill, damage isn't what needs to be raised, threat is. Added damage will just make the dps job a little more slack, which it doesn't need to be, even if it is a small increase.

 

Threat comes from damage...a 200 dps boost to match the other tanks is not an unrealistic request.

 

Shadows/sins do about 900 dps

Vanguard/powertech does about 850

Guardians/Juggs do about 650...really?

[wadecounty]

Or, instead of adding damage, they could increase the threat of every attack and reduce the cd of taunt. Instead of the "narrow cone attack" they could widen it to be a 180 degree attack.

 

Impale shouldn't be more useful than a tanking skill, damage isn't what needs to be raised, threat is. Added damage will just make the dps job a little more slack, which it doesn't need to be, even if it is a small increase.

 

This logic makes no sense. Threat comes from damage, we've already had HUGE boosts to threat modifiers between Soresu going from 150% to 200% and SSM changing Sweep/Sweeping Slash to 130% threat attacks. At this point the actual damage of the class needs to be boosted.

[Elyxin]

Or, instead of adding damage, they could increase the threat of every attack and reduce the cd of taunt. Instead of the "narrow cone attack" they could widen it to be a 180 degree attack.

 

Impale shouldn't be more useful than a tanking skill, damage isn't what needs to be raised, threat is. Added damage will just make the dps job a little more slack, which it doesn't need to be, even if it is a small increase.

 

You again like many others are only seeing one side of the coin. threat is only a multiplier on a base number. threat has 2 parts. the base (damage), and the multiplier. If you've ever researched stocks, you'd know that having a bigger base (more investment capital) is more important then having a slightly higher rate of return. damage is the base for threat. increasing a multiplier can only go so far...and it can actually limit the flexibility of the base. the higher a multiplier is, the less they can increase the base. Like I said previously, increasing damage is the much more flexible option in that equation.

 

For the life of me I can not figure out the logic behind this argument. Are you saying you want less damage? you want to hit like a wet noodle? threat itself is a band-aid, because a tank would be OP if he did enough damage to hold threat with no multiplier. But saying that all we need is the threat "multiplier", and ignoring a critical component of that threat stupifies me. It smacks of ignorance. I have yet to see any logical reason why we cant increase Damage.

 

I do agree with you on the Impale issue...but that didn't used to be an issue before...back when crushing blow did higher damage. crushing blow was worth using, cause it did damage and threat. now it's just threat. see how that works? People use impale now because it's DAMAGE coupled with a solid threat multiplier makes it more effective then a nerfed crushing blow.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Elyxin

[Eurynamous]

This whole issue then reeks of poor design.

 

If threat is a measurement used to keep the attention of a target, then it should be the sole form of measurement used to keep attention. To challenge that attention, the target should have abilities to wipe it and swap to the next highest. Each class has its primary focus outside the tank role, those classes have their own measurements that they need to follow.

 

Healing and damage.

 

To challenge control, damage/healing abilities would build up smaller amounts of threat that take a long time to stack. Where a tanks threat should stack faster, then level out to be maintained and slightly lost here and there for challenge. These variables should all be separate.

 

The boss mechanics and gradual build of challenging threat makes tanking the most dynamic class in the game, because you're fighting the monsters and the players. In that regard, damage focused attacks should have less of a threat build than the tanking abilities, regardless of base damage.

 

Now if the system doesn't operate like this and damage is the only way to build superior threat, then jugg hybrids should be the only viable tanking tree and that's wrong.

 

If this is the case, then I support the request for a damage boost. But I would much rather see the threat system operate the way it should. Damage should never be a tanks concern, survival of the party should be.

[wadecounty]

This whole issue then reeks of poor design.

 

If threat is a measurement used to keep the attention of a target, then it should be the sole form of measurement used to keep attention. To challenge that attention, the target should have abilities to wipe it and swap to the next highest. Each class has its primary focus outside the tank role, those classes have their own measurements that they need to follow.

 

Healing and damage.

 

To challenge control, damage/healing abilities would build up smaller amounts of threat that take a long time to stack. Where a tanks threat should stack faster, then level out to be maintained and slightly lost here and there for challenge. These variables should all be separate.

 

The boss mechanics and gradual build of challenging threat makes tanking the most dynamic class in the game, because you're fighting the monsters and the players. In that regard, damage focused attacks should have less of a threat build than the tanking abilities, regardless of base damage.

 

Now if the system doesn't operate like this and damage is the only way to build superior threat, then jugg hybrids should be the only viable tanking tree and that's wrong.

 

If this is the case, then I support the request for a damage boost. But I would much rather see the threat system operate the way it should. Damage should never be a tanks concern, survival of the party should be.

 

You're not getting it at all. If you completely remove damage from the equation, tanks are no longer a class you can level as, only something you can specialize in at level 50. They made that mistake early on in development with healers, made Presence the healing stat which competed directly with Power, assuming healers would be OK with not being able to kill anything so long as their companions could do it for them, they were wrong.

 

Nobody is asking for Juggernaut tanks to do the same damage as a DPS, that would be silly. They are asking for them to do the same damage as the other tanks. There is nothing off about that.

 

If you boost Juggernaut damage to be equal to other tanks, guess what? Their threat is equal as well. If you ONLY boost their threat, we'd still be a liability, know why? Because if tank A and tank B can both hold the boss equally well, and have about the same mitigation, but tank A does 200 less DPS, in a progression raid, people are going to want tank B, because 200 DPS is important, and it doesn't matter whether its coming from a tank or a DPS.

[Eurynamous]

You're not getting it at all. If you completely remove damage from the equation, tanks are no longer a class you can level as, only something you can specialize in at level 50. They made that mistake early on in development with healers, made Presence the healing stat which competed directly with Power, assuming healers would be OK with not being able to kill anything so long as their companions could do it for them, they were wrong.

 

Nobody is asking for Juggernaut tanks to do the same damage as a DPS, that would be silly. They are asking for them to do the same damage as the other tanks. There is nothing off about that.

 

If you boost Juggernaut damage to be equal to other tanks, guess what? Their threat is equal as well. If you ONLY boost their threat, we'd still be a liability, know why? Because if tank A and tank B can both hold the boss equally well, and have about the same mitigation, but tank A does 200 less DPS, in a progression raid, people are going to want tank B, because 200 DPS is important, and it doesn't matter whether its coming from a tank or a DPS.

 

 

 

Here is what you're not getting.

 

I didn't suggest anyone was asking for tanks to be equal dps.

I wasn't saying tanks shouldn't do any damage.

 

I was saying that damage, though it needs to exist for leveling reasons, shouldn't have anything to do with the role of tanking. Yes you should have it, but no it shouldn't be calculated into tanking.

 

The fact that a tank needs to get impale in order to hold aggro is a joke. You're grabbing an ability to use in a rotation that another class uses every 9 seconds. Paired with shatter, scream and ravage.

 

What's happening here is that damage equals greater threat, when it shouldn't at all. Threat should equal greater threat, end of story. A difference of 200 dps isn't even on the radar and wouldn't make tank A more desirable than tank B. what should is who has better mitigation and control.

 

Asking for a damage boost is a bandaid fix to a larger issue, which is, why do tanks need impale to do their jobs?

 

As mentioned before, the changes to an ability caused the point migration, which didn't fix anything but created a larger issue. Keep in mind, we are talking mechanically and not what is preferred, but how it's design is flawed.

 

If you can't look at it like that, then I can't discuss it with you, because you will just want more damage regardless without trying deduce what's wrong with the current threat generation. If you want to try and discuss it, act as of damage is a non-existent factor.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Eurynamous

[wadecounty]

A difference of 200 dps isn't even on the radar and wouldn't make tank A more desirable than tank B.

 

This is where you're wrong. A difference of 200 DPS (even if I did exaggerate it some) is huge, and is definitely going to impact a raid. That means that all of a sudden, if you're just beating enrage with your Marauder that does 1900 DPS? That's no longer good enough, now you and the other 4 DPS must do 50 more a piece to make up for a tank that is not pulling his weight (yes, tanks are factored into the DPS equation).

 

Again, threat is based off of damage, always has been, always will be. You're asking it to be a separate calculation, but have provided no way of doing this.

 

What we are asking for is for Juggernaut tanks to be normalized with the other tanking classes. What you are asking for is for the game's coding to be rewritten.

[planet_J]

What I don't understand...is how a juggernaut tank that is WAY out of balance threat wise (because of damage disparity) should be swept under the rug?

 

You want to discuss philosophy...I am talking mechanically with the formulae given...the solution is clear...bring juggernaut dps inline with the other tank classes. Don't buff or nerf the other 2...I am not saying we need to do more than they do either...just make us about the same...if we were smack dab right in the middle of the 2..ok! Great! Problem solved....philosophy has nothing to do with the existing mechanics.

 

In theory a tank is a heavily fortified mobile artillery piece that requires massive attention because of the damage it is capable of...but no one ever thinks a tank in a mmo should have that kind of damage...ok...but don't act like it should be a pillar to wail on and once in a while smack someone or something for a little white damage and a huge amount of threat!

[Marb]

Boosting dps just for the sake of bringing dps up to powertech level is not taking in the whole picture. Dps is balanced taking into account much more then how it effects threat. A powertech lacks strong defensive cooldowns, but has solid damage and passive mitigation. The assassin has the highest dps, but most of their active ability use directly concerns survivability. Juggs do have an identity crisis in that they don't seem to have a strong design focus that the other two tanks have.

 

Boosting dps will impact on pvp balance more then anything. Soresu form needs to be looked at, and backhand / crushing blow need to be made more attractive as top tier abilities. But dps is not ALL that's wrong with the immortal tree, and I don't think it is the silver bullet that many in this thread assume it to be.