[ + ] Serious Concerns about Future Class Balance

[DkSharktooth]

Dear Bioware,

 

1st off, Happy New Years to your company and the game. I hope your staff had a wonderful break for the holidays.

 

Now that the staff will be back to work soon, many of us have very serious concerns about class balance now and in the future. The main point I can make here is that you have asked us for "class feedback" on every class forum yet it doesn't feel like you really are listening and communicating effectively. It's like you leave forum posts to be answered by other forum members only. There is a clear indication that developers and forum mods do not offer insight, interact with their audience, read, or care about class forums. The proof lies in the balance and obvious lack of yellow posts for all classes and class concerns. This is the reason why most posts that get attention are on PVP forums or General Discussion, that seems to be the only forum they read and it consequently always has the most interaction.

 

I'm not asking for a daily update for all classes from developers, I am just concerned that there is no interaction or awareness of class concerns from the staff. Most of us are just looking for something in a reply that says something like "hey, we are here, and we are aware of this" or "what do you guys think about the new ability ____" followed by some developer interaction like a conversation instead of a 1 post general reply. Even something like having a Developer/ Moderator have a clear presence on servers in pve or pvp just roaming around playing with the community would do wonders for the spirit of the community.

 

In fact I just went through ALL the class forums for every class (page 1s only) and there is only 1 yellow sticky post that I see about a smugglers theme song. Frankly, that is just insulting.

 

I am pessimistic that the new level 55 classes and abilitys are going to be any better due to the reasons above, but I am hopeful.

 

Sincerely,

Long term subscriber since launch

Edited January 2, 2013 by DkSharktooth

[SafeJungleFever]

I've been a commando since pre-order. I've had serious concerns about CURRENT class balance since 1.2

[Ignicity]

I've been a commando since pre-order. I've had serious concerns about CURRENT class balance since 1.2

 

 

QFT

 

My first 50 was a Merc. After 1.2 went live, I have not played it.

 

Thanks EAware!

[DkSharktooth]

I've been a commando since pre-order. I've had serious concerns about CURRENT class balance since 1.2

 

Concerns are a problem, lack of any communication is the main issue at hand. One general reply post per few months isn't beneficial to any classes. There needs to be more input and thought process given in a conversation format not just 1 reply and wait for 500 people to quote it and given their opinions, then never say anything yellow post again till the next content update.

[Fornix]

The problem with things like this is, what are you balancing for?

 

There is no real 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 PvP going on in this game, so there's no need to balance each class to uphold against every other class if you ask me. Better yet, I have a general disliking towards PvP in games where all classes are pretty much turned to become identical in regards of damage output, number of stuns, speed abilities, etc. It takes away all form of tact from a PvP match and diminishes cooperation even further.

 

The same goes for the entire Merc/Commando debate. It's a class with an amazing DPS output, which may easily top the charts, IF as a team you cooperate to protect that asset.

 

However, does your random PvP match work like that? Of course not, it's every man for themselves. Most can't be arsed with actually playing as a team or cooperating. You even see that in matches where cooperation matters most, such as in hutball. The WZ has been out for a year, yet there's still numerous players who prefer trying to run towards the goal line themselves without ever throwing a pass.

 

What personally I think BioWare should do prior to throwing things on balancing, is work on getting the ranked system up and running. Moreover, make it so that players may register teams to be ranked with, in similar style as arena teams could be registered in WoW. Throw up leaderboards for the community to see, and preferably give access to the charts of recent matches, or definitely great in terms of e-sport style would be an option to rewatch the match as a spectator.

 

My bet is we'd actually see quite a number of teams amongst the highly ranked groups turn out to take well advantage of classes such as mercs and commandos.

 

Will that ever resolve the solo, kill-hungry attitude many have in non-ranked warzones? Most definitely not, but at least it'll help identify where there are true balance issues and where it's simply the much more likely lack of teamplay being a major cause.

[Ignicity]

The same goes for the entire Merc/Commando debate. It's a class with an amazing DPS output, which may easily top the charts, IF as a team you cooperate to protect that asset.

 

What game have you been playing?

 

If this were the case, we'd hear nothing but requests for Mercs/Commando's for Ops runs. Do we?

[MoobooMagoo]

What game have you been playing?

 

If this were the case, we'd hear nothing but requests for Mercs/Commando's for Ops runs. Do we?

 

What game are YOU playing?

 

You said it yourself, you haven't played your merc since 1.2, which means you haven't played that character for almost 9 months which means you don't really understand the class anymore.

 

Commandos are awesome, but they take a bit of time to build up their damage. Even though they have heavy armor they are extremely squishy, though.

[Fornix]

What game have you been playing?

 

If this were the case, we'd hear nothing but requests for Mercs/Commando's for Ops runs. Do we?

 

Uhm.... we raid with 2 mercs who top our DPS charts.... Of which one swapped from jugg DPS to merc just for the sake of the additional DPS (on top of ranged benefit).

 

So well yeh, perhaps we haven't been playing the same game I suppose, or you need to find some mercs/commandos who are capable of playing the class to its full extent.

 

The only class which we found thus far to top them is the marauder, however we currently have none active.

[aeterno]

Commandos do ridiculous damage to be honest. Absolute monsters in PvE. The derp/lolsmashers can only dream of posting the same numbers.

 

But they have the same issue all cast time nukers have in PvP. That however is not a balance thing but a conceptual thing. Some can play em some think it's torture. Pick your poison. But don't assume you're the center of the universe and stuff you don't like is automatically "broken".

Edited January 1, 2013 by aeterno

[Cindikle]

I heard once they don't want to bring out ranked warzones till it's a little more balanced. This could easily be wrong though.

 

But I see a couple problems with this currently.

-With Makeb around the corner, balancing classes now may not mean much. Makeb may come with a bunch of balance fixes with it. Meaning this attention that the game needs is probably not going to happen for a while. Unless it happens very soon. If they wait for Makeb, then them charging for it gets even worse. I am OK with it now until I see what it exactly will come with. But if they're holding off on IMPORTANT game fixes, then I have a problem.

-Resolve bar is horrible. Proper CC balance is not really there. Probably the first thing I'd like to see on this if they keep the resolve bar is that tanks, who are in tank spec/stance, get a reduced duration to PvP stuns. Or they get a faster growing resolve bar. Overall I'd like to see more player activated anti-CC ability similar to how Blink worked for Mages in WoW. Example being a Sorc/Sage being able to shield themselves while stunned. How would this be logical you may ask? They have the force. There body is crippled but their mind still works. It doesn't have to break the stun, just be useable. 2mil cooldown with the resolve bar is such a bad setup.

[aeterno]

So your fix is to give the walking stun machines even more cc immunity (they already got force speed upgraded to basically be the 2nd trinket on a much shorter CD)?

 

Yea Imma go with these "balance" issues being outside the league of forum armchair designers.

[macumba]

I do pity you commandos and mercs (no irony intended)

 

mfg your range buddy the gunslinger

 

ps: (irony now) It would not make much sense to play the cookie cutter class if there weren't cookies to cut (you are the cookies)

[DkSharktooth]

The problem with things like this is, what are you balancing for?

 

There is no real 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 PvP going on in this game, so there's no need to balance each class to uphold against every other class if you ask me. Better yet, I have a general disliking towards PvP in games where all classes are pretty much turned to become identical in regards of damage output, number of stuns, speed abilities, etc. It takes away all form of tact from a PvP match and diminishes cooperation even further.

 

The same goes for the entire Merc/Commando debate. It's a class with an amazing DPS output, which may easily top the charts, IF as a team you cooperate to protect that asset.

 

However, does your random PvP match work like that? Of course not, it's every man for themselves. Most can't be arsed with actually playing as a team or cooperating. You even see that in matches where cooperation matters most, such as in hutball. The WZ has been out for a year, yet there's still numerous players who prefer trying to run towards the goal line themselves without ever throwing a pass.

 

What personally I think BioWare should do prior to throwing things on balancing, is work on getting the ranked system up and running. Moreover, make it so that players may register teams to be ranked with, in similar style as arena teams could be registered in WoW. Throw up leaderboards for the community to see, and preferably give access to the charts of recent matches, or definitely great in terms of e-sport style would be an option to rewatch the match as a spectator.

 

My bet is we'd actually see quite a number of teams amongst the highly ranked groups turn out to take well advantage of classes such as mercs and commandos.

 

Will that ever resolve the solo, kill-hungry attitude many have in non-ranked warzones? Most definitely not, but at least it'll help identify where there are true balance issues and where it's simply the much more likely lack of teamplay being a major cause.

 

PVP balancing should be separate from PVE balancing. You should never try to balance them both at the same time, it is really a nightmare. I know of some games that have finally learned this and as a result pvp stopped getting nerfed because of pve and visa versa. All you have to do is put some sort of debuff on some abilities when you get to pvp to balance it from being overpowered or do anything else really. I was thinking about the new level cap some more and there will be an hp increase to all classes, obviously, and this may help fix some problems if people can live longer than 1-2 stuns before they die. It truly will be interesting to see how things pan out at level 55 but based on the current balance track record, things will not look to good after everyone settles in to their new abilities. I am still hopeful.

Edited January 1, 2013 by DkSharktooth

[LordArtemis]

I wish they were more UNBALANCED, or to be more accurate I wish it was rock, paper scissors instead of what they are doing now.

 

I am of the belief that the best way to provide an engaging and challenging game environment is to provide a boon and bane class for every class....meaning one class you are always slightly weak against, another you are always slightly stronger, the rest about even.

 

This way, when you beat your bane class you feel a real sense of accomplishment.

 

Also, I believe there should be two rule sets...one PVE, one PVP, so that changes to one does not effect the other.

Edited January 1, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Grokk_smash]

Please... just fix my Operative. I don't want to top the meters, I just want to do the same DPS people are doing now...not the DPS someone was pulling in 1.2

 

 

Energy problems.

 

Damage output.

 

Just... make it so I don't join a group and have everyone say, "Well we can try it with an Operative, but I have a Merc guildy"

[DkSharktooth]

I wish they were more UNBALANCED, or to be more accurate I wish it was rock, paper scissors instead of what they are doing now.

 

I am of the belief that the best way to provide an engaging and challenging game environment is to provide a boon and bane class for every class....meaning one class you are always slightly weak against, another you are always slightly stronger, the rest about even.

 

This way, when you beat your bane class you feel a real sense of accomplishment.

 

Also, I believe there should be two rule sets...one PVE, one PVP, so that changes to one does not effect the other.

 

This may be true but I think balance would be better if people don't die in 1 stun. The more hp and abilities, the higher chance to involve some more skill for a longer duration battle.

[Ainew]

I agree the lack of communication is one of the problems you need people posting directly to people. I'm sure you have someone that can sit around do it. People need to feel like they are heard we need to know you are hearing our ideas/feedback. Edited January 2, 2013 by Ainew

[LordArtemis]

This may be true but I think balance would be better if people don't die in 1 stun. The more hp and abilities, the higher chance to involve some more skill for a longer duration battle.

 

Sure, but that's the golden thing about the bane and boon method....there is always a class that has an advantage over you. That means if there is a problem with stuns, bubbles, etc...there is always a class that can overcome it.

 

This actually solves the balance problem by making things unbalanced...but even overall. You simply bring counters to the fight.

[Zataos]

Concerns are a problem, lack of any communication is the main issue at hand. One general reply post per few months isn't beneficial to any classes. There needs to be more input and thought process given in a conversation format not just 1 reply and wait for 500 people to quote it and given their opinions, then never say anything yellow post again till the next content update.

 

If you have learned anything about the way the SWTOR devs work it should be they don't really care what the players want, they do or say what they have to in order get complainers off their back but ultimately seek little to no input and the direction of most content/patches/fixes reflects this.

[Zataos]

Sure, but that's the golden thing about the bane and boon method....there is always a class that has an advantage over you. That means if there is a problem with stuns, bubbles, etc...there is always a class that can overcome it.

 

This actually solves the balance problem by making things unbalanced...but even overall. You simply bring counters to the fight.

 

That works in theory but without any type of a matchmaking system it falls apart in practice. You can tell about 75% of the time whether its a win or loss in pvp just based on the class mix and the warzone, thats without delving into gear and premades..

[Coldin]

The class balance is just really sad right now. Specifically how helpless one can feel when going up against some of the "god classes". Assassins, Sentinels, Powertechs. I meet one of those 1v1, and I know I'm not likely to win that fight.

 

And yeah, it's more sad that Bioware has a pretty passive interaction with the community about such matters. Things like the stun bubble, and force sweeps should have been addressed in a much clearer manner. Based on the last comment about Force Sweep/Smash, I wonder if they even realize it truly is a problem.

 

There is also a clear lack of back and forth communication. They push out some changes on the PTS, a bunch of players make threads about it, but we're lucky if we even get one response back. No open dialogue really hurts, but I guess I can understand why don't do it. Most times when they do comment on something, rarely many people agree.

[oakamp]

PVP balancing should be separate from PVE balancing. You should never try to balance them both at the same time, it is really a nightmare.

wrong concept,

u should never mix pve and pvp into same character,

u should design them as different chars,

then problem solved,

but a minor ppl don't like the idea.

[DkSharktooth]

Sure, but that's the golden thing about the bane and boon method....there is always a class that has an advantage over you. That means if there is a problem with stuns, bubbles, etc...there is always a class that can overcome it.

 

This actually solves the balance problem by making things unbalanced...but even overall. You simply bring counters to the fight.

 

Just adding to your post:

 

Stacking of all 1 class for dps or healer that is considered fotm is hard to counter and is frequently a problem. One way some games combat this is via character selection menu and you can't chose two of the same. Obviously things are a little different in swtor, but what they can do is add matchmaking system code to only allow for maybe 2 of the same AC into a warzone which would allow for a more diverse team for ranked and unranked.

[BrianDavion]

Just adding to your post:

 

Stacking of all 1 class for dps or healer that is considered fotm is hard to counter and is frequently a problem. One way some games combat this is via character selection menu and you can't chose two of the same. Obviously things are a little different in swtor, but what they can do is add matchmaking system code to only allow for maybe 2 of the same AC into a warzone which would allow for a more diverse team for ranked and unranked.

 

problem with that is it can just create artifcally long que times. I'm leveling a vanguard right now, not because it's FOTM but because I wanted to level a vanguard. no reason to punish me for a decision not motived by FOTMism. true balance will always seem illusive (especially because some people just want to face roll everyone else and if they can't it's cause everyone else is OP) that said some classes are definatly not as well off as others (defence guardians honestly could use a complete re-work) that said remember BW can't just listen to what we want, they DO have other requirements for the game and class balance

[LordArtemis]

Well, If I were in charge of the PVP team....

 

In a perfect world I would have added more classes that were true mirrors on each side, but that's another discussion.

 

First, I would build in some innate resistances and strengths/weaknesses against certain specials that other classes use regularly.

 

You can build in a class that is naturally weak to bubbles but strong on armor penetration, strong resistance to force abilities but weak against standard weapon attacks (even split it into ranged and melee), etc. You match up natural enemies in the world and then find their strengths and add natural counters to those strengths.

 

Second, I would refine the specials trees so that they represent three distinct roles, healer, dps, tank, and allow a pure tank, pure dps, pure healer or hybrid healer dps or tank dps.

 

Third, I would allow a player to save an additional build, complete with specials bar locations and the like, and allow players to switch on the fly outside of combat.

 

Fourth, I would separate PVP and PVE completely by having your stats, as well as specials change how they work and the effects in PVP. This way, with an overall set of changes that lay over your current PVE stats and specials that overlay can be altered for balance purposes while the base PVE stats and abilities remain intact.

 

Essentially two separate rule sets for each type of play.

 

Finally I would set up a proper matchmaking system that also pulls from other servers. During large operations or in open battlefield situations I would have the game engine replace your high poly model with a reduced poly version (think BF2) and tone down the visual effects/particles to reduce lag in large battle situations.

 

 

Every special, ability, stat you have would work differently in PVP.

Edited January 2, 2013 by LordArtemis