smash/force sweep spec is faceroll in pvp

[Reveillere]

Please please PLEASE read your own post before telling me this non-sense. We got an overall 10% increase in armor pen (when fully talented) which doesn't really affect light armor classes as much as you think. It definitely helps with heavy armor classes though I'll give you that much. Also, reducing the CD on smash doesn't increase its base damage. We are talking about 7k sweeps, not the frequency of sweeps.

 

Secondly, as PoliteAssassin stated 1 smasher isn't an issue. its the combination of 3-4 that it becomes a problem which is why bioware shouldn't nerf smash. They instead should change the mechanics to prevent group stacking. I posted this suggestion in the other whiner thread but I'll post it here too. Implement this change to force sweep/smash:

 

Target player affected by smash has a 20% damage reduction to each subsequent smash [stacks up to 5 stacks, lasts 5 seconds][Resets the timer if smashed while buff is active]

What does this do? Well you cannot simply send 5 smashers in 1 area and blast everyone apart, it actually requires coordination. This also doesn't reduce the effectiveness of smashers, it only controls the issue of stacking them which is the ONLY issue.

 

This is why I asked everyone to ponder about it. Because it really is an obvious change.

 

Lastly, if Bioware does decide to change smash, for the LOVE OF GOD rebuff vigilance so it isn't useless in PVP. That spec was much more fun and rewarding.

 

Pretty sure we aren't talking about the damage of smash but the damage of rage, and the spec got a huge buff in terms of overall damage. My rage marauder can push out so much damage its ridiculous.

[NoFishing]

I think the issue is group stacking, but guess what any group of 3-4 people can rape 1 person easy, 3-4 aimed shots dead, 4 rail shot procs dead, what people are mad about is that juggs can just jump in and smash noobs, they mad cause they cordinated, if your fighting 4 people you will die its gg end of story, and smart people focus dps to kil someone

 

The problem isn't that 3-4 ppl can rape 1. Yes, those situation should be near-instant death.

 

It's that 3-4 ppl can rape 4 or 5 people in about 2 seconds, because smash is an instant, huge, AoE. That should not happen.

[RepublicForever]

I find it somewhat odd that the OP brings up he plays a sage.. Its somewhat discredits everything you say when your rolling probably the 1st or 2nd most fotm class right now which everyone complains about because it pretty much effs melee classes with downright disgusting amounts of cc, and then… your topic is about how op a melee class… Literally makes me want to cry..

 

Downright disgusting amounts of cc? Are you referring to what people have taken to calling Bubble Stun? Because that only delays the inevitable death of being a light armor dps. Maybe you mean the two-second snare of a conical pushback? The same pushback that smart attackers know how to avoid or circumvent...As far as Balance spec goes, they also only get two tricks that buy them a few meters distance before the opponent leaps back on them and Smashes. So again the inevitable was only delayed.

 

As far as FOTM class, I simply don't know what you're talking about. I rarely see a dps sage such as myself.

 

I would also refer you to the first sentence of this thread since you think my name or title is OP.

 

I cry for your lack of reading comprehension, grammar, logic, and knowledge as to what you're talking about.

Edited December 20, 2012 by RepublicForever

[Seventhkey]

I used to think this was all a bunch of hype. Then today I noticed that the teams my team was against consisted of 6 Jedi knights and 2 healers. Not a big deal if your team knows how to spread out . The main think to remember is if you are going to PUG this is what you face now. Its the flavor of the month easy mode class. If you all stand there together you make it even easier for them.

[snine]

I used to think this was all a bunch of hype. Then today I noticed that the teams my team was against consisted of 6 Jedi knights and 2 healers. Not a big deal if your team knows how to spread out . The main think to remember is if you are going to PUG this is what you face now. Its the flavor of the month easy mode class. If you all stand there together you make it even easier for them.

 

I'm fairly certain people like to get smashed since they clump together so much.

[Eurynamous]

Being a warrior myself who on numerous occassions has been 2-3 hit killed by shadows, pinned and stabbed to death by ops without a chance to recover and overall beat the crap out of from time to time. I find it funny that people fear packs of roaming warriors all focus targeting clusters of people. Now, sweeping strikes is rage dependent, extremely rage dependent, while you can refund 1 rage for every attack, it does hit more often than a conventional AOE, along with a free smash in the beginning and the end of the rage dump, I can see it being annoying for defenders fighting at a door or node.

 

The thing is, I can still be 2-3 hit murked by a shadow with no recovery time, I can still get bar shanked to death without even standing back up. All this **** kind of sucks, but. It's really not the end of the world, nor is it a reason to call for a nerf.

 

If it is painfully killer, get some parse logs and throw some facts here. The logs should show mitigation from expertise and any other protective stat vs. raw damage and total received damage. That way there is some clear and present facts with stats in the equation.

 

I understand that this may be a pain in the ***, but just pointing fingers isn't really going to do anything at this point. If you want bioware to see it's off and unfair, that's the best way to do it.

[RepublicForever]

 

I understand and agree with you on this. That's why I didn't start this thread with the intention of it becoming a nerf debate. I simply used the Smash/Force Sweep spec as an example because it stands out the most in my mind as, admittedly, the most affected by my proposition to BioWare. That being said, I think that if expertise were to decrease chance to be crit and crit damage taken then that would alleviate a lot of the nerf talk across the board. Really now, what's the point in taking the time to attain war hero, and now elite war hero, pvp gear when you can just as easily be 2-3 shot by crits (guaranteed crits in the Smash/Force Sweep example) as someone in recruit?

Edited December 20, 2012 by RepublicForever

[Royox]

I think the issue is group stacking, but guess what any group of 3-4 people can rape 1 person easy, 3-4 aimed shots dead, 4 rail shot procs dead, what people are mad about is that juggs can just jump in and smash noobs, they mad cause they cordinated, if your fighting 4 people you will die its gg end of story, and smart people focus dps to kil someone

 

You really don't understand that the problem is that they can insta-deal 7k dmg in AOE every 12 seconds.

 

They have 100% crit chance so they only have to remod all their gear to power and that's it, easy mode pvp.

 

 

I love when I pull them to me and they don't know what to do...they start running trying to quite me....a vanguard (lol) to reach the 10m needed to charge and smash. They usually die before they can do that withouth hitting me a single time lol.

[PoliteAssasin]

You really don't understand that the problem is that they can insta-deal 7k dmg in AOE every 12 seconds.

 

They have 100% crit chance so they only have to remod all their gear to power and that's it, easy mode pvp.

 

 

I love when I pull them to me and they don't know what to do...they start running trying to quite me....a vanguard (lol) to reach the 10m needed to charge and smash. They usually die before they can do that withouth hitting me a single time lol.

 

 

Less than twelve seconds actually. Active cooldown reduction. I think its like 6 seconds in reality.

[WaywardOne]

<< I love when I pull them to me and they don't know what to do...they start running trying to quite me....a vanguard (lol) to reach the 10m needed to charge and smash. They usually die before they can do that withouth hitting me a single time lol. >>

 

They don't need to be 10m leap/smash

[Ycoga]

PT/Vanguards are FINE now. Don't nerf us MORE. We got ALL our skills range reduced to 10m. We are fine.

 

Nah, your grapple should be on 2min CD and 15m range (it's currently OP on 45 sec and 30m).

 

Using your flamespam should be more challenging than *grapple, yawn, grapple, yawn*.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Ycoga

[bglodt]

Scoundrel/ops dps is not up to par, I am sorry. Once they open they are a sitting duck.

 

Yes it is. Their burst is great from opening. They are incredible at killing most classes 1v1, and their downtime between these destruction plays is not that great. Sure they are squishy, but they compensate for it by having great control and damage from stealth. If you give them any more damage you'll go back to the initial role out where they were completely unstoppable. If you think their damage is low, you either haven't fought one that is decently geared and knows their class, and is an average or better player. Or your fighting them with a class that has 3 defensive cooldowns (more survivability than any tank class), and has an escape... All of which are free.

 

Ops/scoundrels are very a good pvp AC, they are the class that is most close to balanced in the game. Vanguard... Put sticky back on same cooldown as plastique, and they are pretty balanced given their relative squishiness. Actually Sentinels/maras need their def cooldowns brought in line and smash damage needs to be looked at, and mercs/commandos need some love... The rest of the classes I think are within 1 standard deviation of "balanced".

[Gyronamics]

With my vanguard? The same. While leveling he was the fking beast of the WZ (befor 30m range nerf) now, full War Hero, Big numbers? Where. Everybody has bubbles, shields, saber wards, stealth and skills that can dispel my fire...so where's the "OP vanguard"? We are the "rhino" class. We attack 1 target, try to kill him, then die. I finish almos all my encounters with other melees at 20% hp.

 

Try facing a rated team with 3 vanguards and a sage bubbling them.

 

You'll get harpooned and ganked one by one, they don't charge in solo.

[bglodt]

Nah, your grapple should be on 2min CD and 15m range (it's currently OP on 45 sec and 30m).

 

Using your flamespam should be more challenging than *grapple, yawn, grapple, yawn*.

 

Ummm no. As a "melee" class doing dps, that is their only "gap closer". If your getting beat because someone is grappling and regrappling you, either you both are very equally skilled and equally geared (because let's face it, few 1v1 last 45 seconds even if one opened with grapple, and who does that?), or that vanguard is really under skilled to be spamming ion pulse and grapple.

[Wainamoinen]

Ops/scoundrels are very a good pvp AC

 

Not so much.

 

Just because an op or a sco manages to pop your vanguard or sent occasionally doesn't make them balanced.

 

Faced many in ranked matches?

[Aluvi]

If rage was completely faceroll, then why do I consistently out perform every other rage spec on our server, with the exception of about 5 players? I'm not debating that it is overpowered, but it is no less difficult to play than other specs. If you really want to get into it, pyrotech is much easier and puts out similar numbers, and does not even use aoe. The difference is, every ability they use hits hard, just not as hard as smash. And the thing is, smash has always guy this hard, you just didn't notice it as much because every marauder was carnage. And in truth, when you take mass bubble stuns out of the equation, carnage still is the most dangerous spec. I can take someone from full to zero in about three seconds in carnage. Honestly, I can't wait for the rage and bubble nerf. The good marauders will go back to carnage and you will cry even harder.

[JustinxDuff]

Yes it is. Their burst is great from opening. They are incredible at killing most classes 1v1, and their downtime between these destruction plays is not that great. Sure they are squishy, but they compensate for it by having great control and damage from stealth. If you give them any more damage you'll go back to the initial role out where they were completely unstoppable. If you think their damage is low, you either haven't fought one that is decently geared and knows their class, and is an average or better player. Or your fighting them with a class that has 3 defensive cooldowns (more survivability than any tank class), and has an escape... All of which are free.

 

Ops/scoundrels are very a good pvp AC, they are the class that is most close to balanced in the game. Vanguard... Put sticky back on same cooldown as plastique, and they are pretty balanced given their relative squishiness. Actually Sentinels/maras need their def cooldowns brought in line and smash damage needs to be looked at, and mercs/commandos need some love... The rest of the classes I think are within 1 standard deviation of "balanced".

 

They really aren't. Explain to my why out of 20 PvP games last night I did not see a single one? If you bring one to a rated game you are instantly at a disadvantage. They have opening burst (that is easily stopped unless its 1v1) and thats about it.

[Ycoga]

Ummm no. As a "melee" class doing dps, that is their only "gap closer". If your getting beat because someone is grappling and regrappling you, either you both are very equally skilled and equally geared (because let's face it, few 1v1 last 45 seconds even if one opened with grapple, and who does that?), or that vanguard is really under skilled to be spamming ion pulse and grapple.

 

Nonsense, it's not a melee dps class. It has good range dps ability, and OP melee DPS ability (it can spam elemental attacks). That's why grapple is used in WZ: to introduce the target to greater melee DPS.

For balance reasons, they should do more ranged DPS, which logically means, less use of grapple.

 

And YES! I do have a powertech.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Ycoga

[JustinxDuff]

Nonsense, it's not a melee dps class. It has good range dps ability, and OP melee DPS ability (it can spam elemental attacks). That's why grapple is used in WZ: to introduce the target to greater melee DPS.

For balance reasons, they should do more ranged DPS, which logically means, less use of grapple.

 

And YES! I do have a powertech.

 

Pretty much.

 

Grapple, cryo-nade, 5k railshots dead. Class is borked.

[dejavy]

PT/Vanguards are FINE now. Don't nerf us MORE. We got ALL our skills range reduced to 10m. We are fine.

 

You are not until i'm being a commando would do the same damage as you do during the fuc*ing 4 gcd. In your case it's about 15-17k. The spike is insane in vang/pt case. It's even worse than smashers do but it's single, that's why you are not nerfed to the ground yet. But i agree, you don't need huge nerf, maybe HIB proc should become 10sec inner CD or so.

[bglodt]

Not so much.

 

Just because an op or a sco manages to pop your vanguard or sent occasionally doesn't make them balanced.

 

Faced many in ranked matches?

 

If you base "balance" on what's in most rateds, then smash specs, bubble sorcs, and OP healers are the only balanced classes. Scoundrels/ops are balanced and not OP/UP If you give then more they will dominate. They have a role they fill it nicely.

 

That said i see a difference between the terms balanced and "OP". The OP classes are those that do too many things too well. Smash sents/Mara do too much damage AND have the best survivability AND have an escape. That is OP. bubble sorcs are not OP their one skill that is beneficial to the entire team has the potential, and does in many cases, UNBALANCE a pvp match. Scoundrels are not OP/UP and their abilities and damage which are high burst single target are balanced.

[bglodt]

Nonsense, it's not a melee dps class. It has good range dps ability, and OP melee DPS ability (it can spam elemental attacks). That's why grapple is used in WZ: to introduce the target to greater melee DPS.

For balance reasons, they should do more ranged DPS, which logically means, less use of grapple.

 

And YES! I do have a powertech.

 

If you have one then you know they are a melee class. They cannot perform at greater than 10 meters effectively. If you play any vanguard or power tech AC at consistently greater than 10 meters your are gimping yourself. At tgat range you have full auto, HIB with no procs, and sticky grenade, and your free attack. That's it. 10meters or closer for all 3 trees' hardest hitting abilities. That's not ranged.

 

Grapple is not used for tgat reason in wazones per se. It's used more for catching runners, seperating healers from guard, dropping people into obstacles or away from nodes. That's not to say I haven't harpooned a sorc or two in range of the sentinel they just immobilized, but it's not an opening gap closer (usually).

 

They definately should not do more ranged damage... They would be way OP at that point. Tgat was a great change, to drop our range into the 10meter, melee arena, it makes us more "balanced".

[Ycoga]

If you have one then you know they are a melee class. They cannot perform at greater than 10 meters effectively. If you play any vanguard or power tech AC at consistently greater than 10 meters your are gimping yourself. At tgat range you have full auto, HIB with no procs, and sticky grenade, and your free attack. That's it. 10meters or closer for all 3 trees' hardest hitting abilities. That's not ranged.

Actually I can do quite well at range with those abilities.

 

Grapple is not used for tgat reason in wazones per se. It's used more for catching runners, seperating healers from guard, dropping people into obstacles or away from nodes. That's not to say I haven't harpooned a sorc or two in range of the sentinel they just immobilized, but it's not an opening gap closer (usually).

Good thing I didn't suggest it was an 'opening gap closer'.

 

They definately should not do more ranged damage... They would be way OP at that point. Tgat was a great change, to drop our range into the 10meter, melee arena, it makes us more "balanced".

Good thing I never suggested they should do more ranged damage.

 

You are very much in denial and I can't stomach further discussion with you about this. Good day!

 

^^

[bglodt]

They really aren't. Explain to my why out of 20 PvP games last night I did not see a single one? If you bring one to a rated game you are instantly at a disadvantage. They have opening burst (that is easily stopped unless its 1v1) and thats about it.

 

I addressed the rated composition does not equate to balance above. Again if tgat was the case, there would be three VERY balanced specs, smash, bubble, and OP healer, and we know that is not the case. They are balanced because they are a 1v1, open from stealth, I pick the time and place of our fight, spec. That's what they do. That's it. That's even the concept behind the trees. If you add more to them then you need to take away from their primary 1v1 from stealth ability... And you change the whole AC.

 

Yea not many in rated... But really you see only a few specs in rated represented predominantly and the others to lesser extents. It's the nature of the beast. You can't base balance on what's in rated because tgat always represents the FOTM, or to put it another way highest performing 3 or 4 out of 12 available trees. You also never see tactics vanguards in rated, and they are a pretty balanced class (they need more survivability or more burst tbh but they do average dps, and have no game/match changing

powers... A totally underwhelming but playable class that excels at nothing but doesn't really suck at anything either....not sexy, but balanced).

[bglodt]

Actually I can do quite well at range with those abilities.

 

 

Good thing I didn't suggest it was an 'opening gap closer'.

 

 

Good thing I never suggested they should do more ranged damage.

 

You are very much in denial and I can't stomach further discussion with you about this. Good day!

 

^^

 

 

Look at your own quote... You said they should do more ranged damage... You need to read what you write.

 

And the fact that you say you can do pretty good damage by sitting at range using auto-shot, sticky grenade, and full auto makes me think you are either trolling or haven't yet learned the true potential of your class.