Vanguards Tanks: What you never expected

[Vornox]

Though I've never actually posted on these forums before now, I am a long time viewer.

 

As a fellow long-time Vanguard (Powertech) PvP tank, I could not just sit idly by while this build was seriously discussed. There is no other way to put this so I will just say it outright: your build is terrible. You are giving up way too much damage for very little survivability. Here is the build I have been running in PvP ever since respecing has become free in 1.5 (and I realize this is full tactics):

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/vanguard#i0k-9d7fc6ee92-c

 

I believe this is the standard Vanguard PvP tanking build. You should run this in Ion Cell, and use full damage gear including a generator (but remod using high endurance damage enhancements). You should prefer surge to accuracy as the only ranged attack which really matters to this build is High-Impact Bolt (Railshot). Guard a healer at the start of the match but switch to people getting focused.

 

Here is why I believe this build is better:

• Smoke grenade (Oil Slick) is ok for PvE tanking, but it is AWFUL for PvP. Most classes will be using primarily force/tech attacks and thus safely ignore the debuff. Those who don't are:
  -Gunslingers (Snipers) - Most non-Marksman won't even care. They also have an accuracy buff which will more than cancel this out.
  -Shadows (Assassins) - Would be a good time to use Resilience (Force Shroud), since it will also remove the debuff in addition to make them immune to most of your attacks for 3 seconds. Also have plenty of force attacks to use if they don't want to (or it is on cooldown).
  -Non-Focus Knights (Non-Rage Warriors) - The two advanced classes under this base class are the "hardest hit" by Smoke Grenade, they still have some force attacks. They could also blow one of their defensive cooldowns (which are generally much better than yours) and simply outlast you.
  Even if they are using melee/ranged attacks, the debuff could still not make a difference because it is pathetically weak (only 20%). You could hit the button and still have a high chance to get hit from their attacks.
  
• Havoc Training (Prototype Weapon Systems) and Fire Pulse (Immolate) are some of the highest damage talents in a Tactics (Advanced Prototype) build. I'd need a very good reason to give them up.
  
• Extra armor from Rebraced Armor is good, but not great. Many classes can penetrate a percentage of your armor (or all of it; see Precision Strike/Gore), making this talent less valuable than it looks. Still armor is useful in PvP and I do see some merit in this choice.
  
• The 3% endurance from Soldier's Endurance (Integrated Cardio Package) is negligible, but 8% increased damage on your hardest hitting attack (before crits) is not. Heavy Stock (Iron Fist) is clearly better and fewer points.
  
• Battlefield Training (Pnematic Boots) does nothing when you are in Ion Cell.
  
• Most of the other differences are personal taste.
  

 

The biggest downsides to my PvP build are:

• No way to regain ammo (heat) since I'm running Ion Cell, but your build doesn't either. Stockstrike (Rocket Punch) is free after Fire Pulse (Immolate), but otherwise you have to be cautious about your spending. This is much less of a problem in PvP than PvE though.
  
• Don't have Storm (Jet Charge), Energy Blast (Heat Blast), or Ion Screen (Flame Shield). All of these are fantastic for PvP tanking (I miss storming to people on ledges in Huttball), but they are the price you pay for avoiding the rest of the lackluster Shield Spec tree.
  

[Wookieenator]

whatever you took before making this thread please enlighten me.

[FeralPug]

No. Just no.

 

For the love of coconuts people, just stop.

 

PT's have no hybrid choices. We actually have no choice other than pyrotech. You are either pyrotech, or you are occupying a spot in a WZ that could be more effectively filled by another class.

 

This is not to say that you can't run around with alternative specs for the occasional funz. Lord knows I do it all the time in unranked just to keep my PT interesting. But let's not kid ourselves...it's pyro or it's gimpville.

 

To all those new PTs I keep seeing running ion this-and-that tank build in the WZ's: Stop. Please stop. Stop it. Right now. You are taking up a spot in my ops group. It would be better if it were empty so the healer didn't have another mouth to feed. A backfilled 14k HP backpedaling sorc would be a dream come true over a "hybrid" PT.

 

Unless you're on the other team...in which case, hybrid yourself into oblivion so we can 3 cap your gimped *** and get done with our weekly.

 

No. PT's have one viable spec in PVP: pyro. Sure, AP can be fun occasionally, but basing a DPS build on a AOE cone effect that is subject to interweb latency is the most asinine excuse for a PVP ability that I have ever seen. Sure, run it with Ion. You'll live a global cooldown longer and overheat faster.

 

AP is so amusing to me after running a smash marauder. Both specs are build around an AOE ability but:

 

1. Mara smash is instant

2. It's fully 360 degrees

3. Mara is way more survivable

4. Mara puts up loads more damage

5. Mara has way more utility for a team

6. Mara has 100% chance to crit on smash.

 

AP is fun. Probably my favorite "fun" spec to play in the game, but it's hopelessly gimped.

 

Let's not even talk about shieldtech in PVP, because it's a total joke. I flex to it with a shield gen in HB if we absolutely have no carrier in our PUG, but that's it. Even then it is frustratingly lacking when compared with other tanks.

 

No matter how many terrible PT builds and nerdy names people come up with, we're still stuck with a fundamental truth: there is only one reason to have a PT on your team, and that is pyro burst damage. In all other aspects of the game, it is far outpaced by other classes. Fortunately, it does the burst very well and is worth bringing one or two on a ranked team.

 

Sorry this turned into an "AP is gimped" post. I just can't freakin' help myself because I find it so frustrating that PT's have one build that is worth anything.

 

Sad, but true.

Edited December 18, 2012 by FeralPug

[Nightkin]

1. Mara smash is instant

2. It's fully 360 degrees

3. Mara is way more survivable

4. Mara puts up loads more damage

5. Mara has way more utility for a team

6. Mara has 100% chance to crit on smash.

 

That maras are horribly overpowered is nothing new though, maybe we should replace all PTs with maras, period.

[FeralPug]

That maras are horribly overpowered is nothing new though, maybe we should replace all PTs with maras, period.

 

My TTK is faster with my pyro. No doubt about it.

[Vornox]

PT's have no hybrid choices. We actually have no choice other than pyrotech. You are either pyrotech, or you are occupying a spot in a WZ that could be more effectively filled by another class.

 

I strongly disagree. While I do agree that Assault Spec's (Pyro's) damage is higher, 30% damage reduction vs. AOE + 30% damage reduction while stunned + 7% damage reduction vs. all (when in ion cell) is a huge boost to survivability and more than "a global cooldown". Plus, I can guard and taunt for a healer at the same time, which is something a sentinel (marauder) cannot do. This is something which Vanguards (Pyrotechs) can get while still being able to put out respectable damage (I know you are going to try to rip on me for this, but the damage is quite high for a tank).

 

While vulnerable to being interrupted via stun, Pulse Cannon (Flamethrower) does have a couple advantages over Sweept (Smash):

• It puts a heavy slow on all those affected, which helps keep them in the AOE and helps teammates.
  
• It covers a larger area, and can get used from farther away.
  

 

I also would argue that Tactics (Advanced Prototype) is not centered around Pulse Cannon (Flamethrower) like Focus (Rage) is around Sweep (Smash). Tactics (Advanced Prototype) has many other high damage attacks which its talents benefit such as Stockstrike (Rocket Punch), Fire Pulse (Immolate), High-Impact Bolt (Railshot), and Gut.

 

Bottom line: My healer and I look forward to stomping you and 2 of your friends in a match.

[Evuo]

Sad, but true.

 

I think you summed up the reality of playing a PT/VG in pvp.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Evuo

[-Mythix-]

My TTK is faster with my pyro. No doubt about it.

 

Maybe, but you die much faster/easier as a pyro than a Mara.

[Nightkin]

My TTK is faster with my pyro. No doubt about it.

Yes maybe it is, but your survivability is horrible in comparison.

[Invictusthetaru]

I actually run tactics full time (in it's intended cell) and do MORE than fine on my Vanguard. It's a direct counter to smash and any warrior build really, you just have to play it right.

 

Your job is not to roll over your keyboard and rofl stomp, what I like to do is take 1 smash melee completely out of the game w/ pull and then snare (gut / retractable blade) / rotation.

 

If it's a mara this leads to lolcloak out which leads to stealth scan and the continuing of the own fest.

 

Then once stacks are applicable I put them on MY teammates focus fire, which will normally have a PT + warrior on him for the burst and snare.

 

Unless I'm playing against a warrior 1v1s are difficult, but that's not tactics specialty.

 

All middle trees have more utility than most of the other respective trees(vengeance, lightning, engineering, deception, etc), and this spec, while not too close to direct DPS because of pyros DOT, does just fine.

 

Easily over 300k a match regardless of time to win (in regs) anywhere from 600k plus in higher end play.

 

Edit: I'll make some videos and post them soon.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Invictusthetaru

[FeralPug]

I think you summed up the reality of playing a PT/VG in pvp.

 

I laughed out loud.

[Evuo]

I laughed out loud.

 

I must have missed the joke in your original post. Darn, it was probably a good one too.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Evuo

[Xinika]

Guys, he's just trying something new here. Trying to make a difference and push the envelope. VGs are constantly ignored as tanks, so what if it's possible to make them a reality in true play? Edited December 18, 2012 by Xinika

[Evuo]

Guys, he's just trying something new here. Trying to make a difference and push the envelope. VGs are constantly ignored as tanks, so what if it's possible to make them a reality in true play?

 

He's closed his eyes, spun around three times, and rapidly clicked his mouse over random spots on a skill calculator.

[FeralPug]

I must have missed the joke in your original post. Darn, it was probably a good one too.

 

I think you missed the compliment.

 

Nevermind.

[Wookieenator]

I suppose I shall unleash a new thread Smash Marauders: What you never expected. In it I will reveal my secret 13/13/15 spec and how to perform at a high level consistently with a secret technique: using a guitar hero guitar as a keyboard.