So much for not charging subs for Makeb

[TheNahash]

So today's QQ is that we are getting useful things for less than vanity items?

 

The only one who should care about pricing of vanity items is EA. If they are too expensive they won't sell well.

 

I really don't see how us getting the expansion for 10$ (or 8€) is today's big problem...

 

My complaint is I want the pricing to make sense.

 

And you would've been so right if you were asking for a lower price on the expansion...

But asking them to change the prices of vanity items, which add nothing but looks and you can also buy from the GTN for credits, really is not something you or anyone of us should care about. If it pays the bills, keeps EA happy and we get to keep playing the game we like, who cares?

Edited December 19, 2012 by TheNahash

[Kashley]

If you think paying for $12 for a whole customizable outfit is bad. Try looking at other F2P games that charge for vanity items. If I can recall, Vindictus charges an arm and a leg just for underwear. That's right, just for underwear.

 

Whats more is that you have to pay dye outfits, get a certain look or unlock outfits. And its not cheap too, its somewhere around the $5 per dye, $10-20 per outfit and people horde those things too.

 

Yes, but wasn't Vindictus designed to be a 100% free? Their only source of income is their shop.

 

This game on the contrary has a sub model attached to it to help fund its development, thus nullifying your argument. This game isn't even really a F2P model, its a freemium model. With that in mind, this game went to this model because it was losing subs faster than the Titanic was taking on water as it sunk. The idea was that the Cartel Market and the F2P(Freemium) would refresh and revitalize the game. Instead, the out of balance pricing on the Cartel Market in combination with the new price set on the expansion has actually had a negative impact in my opinion as it seems to be blatant price gouging.

 

How does an expansion with extensive content cost less than recolored mounts and some new armor? The story is suppose to be the selling part of the game yet the management has valued it at less than a vanity item? Its nonsensical.

[Invictos]

If you think paying for $12 for a whole customizable outfit is bad. Try looking at other F2P games that charge for vanity items. If I can recall, Vindictus charges an arm and a leg just for underwear. That's right, just for underwear.

 

Whats more is that you have to pay dye outfits, get a certain look or unlock outfits. And its not cheap too, its somewhere around the $5 per dye, $10-20 per outfit and people horde those things too.

 

The irony is that SWTOR's outfits would be far more valuable if you could recolor them, even if recoloring them cost money.

 

I know next to nothing about Vindictus, and I have zero interest in downloading and installing the game just to check their pricing. What I can tell you is that DCUO, STO, and COH sold vastly superior character customization options that were account-wide. And usually, those options were cheaper than the closest analogues we see in SWTOR.

 

Time will tell the story here. All we can do in the meanwhile is give our feedback.

[Kashley]

So today's QQ is that we are getting useful things for less than vanity items?

 

The only one who should care about pricing of vanity items is EA. If they are too expensive they won't sell well.

 

I really don't see how us getting the expansion for 10$ (or 8€) is today's big problem...

 

 

 

And you would've been so right if you were asking for a lower price on the expansion...

But asking them to change the prices of vanity items, which add nothing but looks and you can also buy from the GTN for credits, really is not something you or anyone of us should care about. If it pays the bills, keeps EA happy and we get to keep playing the game we like, who cares?

 

Find me level 1 orange modifiable gear (not from the cartel market) on the GTN. Some people care about stuff like that.

 

Regardless, Its not just about the vanity portion. The pricing is just not in line with the value of the product, period. As I said earlier. Story is the main selling point, why is it valued less than vanity items? It makes no sense to me unless the story quality they are putting out is sub par and doesn't deserve more than $10? I would gladly pay more for an expansion if it offers everything they are promising. I question why they are charging so little when they have no problem gouging in the market. The pricing is all over the place and really needs to be addressed by the devs and management in my opinion.

[kamed]

Yes, but wasn't Vindictus designed to be a 100% free? Their only source of income is their shop.

 

This game on the contrary has a sub model attached to it to help fund its development, thus nullifying your argument. This game isn't even really a F2P model, its a freemium model. With that in mind, this game went to this model because it was losing subs faster than the Titanic was taking on water as it sunk. The idea was that the Cartel Market and the F2P(Freemium) would refresh and revitalize the game. Instead, the out of balance pricing on the Cartel Market in combination with the new price set on the expansion has actually had a negative impact in my opinion as it seems to be blatant price gouging.

 

How does an expansion with extensive content cost less than recolored mounts and some new armor? The story is suppose to be the selling part of the game yet the management has valued it at less than a vanity item? Its nonsensical.

 

I'm aware that Swtor is a subscriber/F2P hybrid business model. But my point was vanity is expensive period. If we can for a minute reflect on the real world. Does anyone really need a million dollar gold plated bathtub? No, but celebrities have it and its expensive. Why? Because they can.

 

Why do people spend hundreds of dollars just to match outfits in Vindictus and pay $20 for just underwear? Because they can and have the disposable income to do so. You don't really need an outfit, but if you want it pay for it. Heck buy the ugly Life Day speeder for what $12?

 

Should some of these things be in-game and be attainable? Yes, they should be and are since some of those outfits are made for a specific class, but the Cartel just makes them adaptable (except for a few special exclusive gears) so that other classes and sides can wear them. I think that's why they are priced and special.

 

My one big gripe over the whole Cartel Market is that they just made crafting utter crap and downplayed everyone except those who can make endgame augments and mods. Like seriously I wanna be able to use Cybertech to make those fireworks or some of those toys. I can craft all the Magenta related crystals with my Artifice, but guess what no one wants them. And the only thing that seems to sell rlly well with my Synthweaver are the pvp battlemaster heavy and medium outfits I bought like long ago. Seriously I only use my crafting to make end-game mods now, I wish they had fun stuff to craft. =(

[TheNahash]

Find me level 1 orange modifiable gear (not from the cartel market) on the GTN. Some people care about stuff like that.

 

Find me level 1 mods/armorings and enhancements and I will find you non-cartel market level 1 orange gear

 

Plus, you can get the level 1 cartel market gear from the GTN without even touching the Cartel Market. In fact some level 1 Cartel Market pieces are so common that they cost even less than the 10-14 green-blue gear. But you wouldn't even need to buy those because doing the Esseles or the Black Talon will get you your first orange pieces without paying anything and most importantly by playing.

What's your point?

 

Regardless, Its not just about the vanity portion. The pricing is just not in line with the value of the product, period. As I said earlier. Story is the main selling point, why is it valued less than vanity items? It makes no sense to me unless the story quality they are putting out is sub par and doesn't deserve more than $10? I would gladly pay more for an expansion if it offers everything they are promising. I question why they are charging so little when they have no problem gouging in the market. The pricing is all over the place and really needs to be addressed by the devs and management in my opinion.

 

Although I agree that from a marketing perspective, pricing vanity items higher than actual content doesn't make any sense, I'll repeat what I said before:

Who. Cares?

Let them charge 100$ for a vanity item. So what? They will not make the money they want to make and they will eventually have to lower their prices. Right now they are testing the market to see what people are willing to pay and for what items (color crystals, orange gear, mounts etc).

 

Really, OP, this is just QQing for QQing's sake.

I will attribute this to your love of the game, because I too do not want to see it go down.

But if unreasonable prices on vanity items (that I can get through the GTN anyway...) is what we need to keep this game going, I'm all for it. Let them charge 1000$ for a mount. See if I care.

 

Also, bare in mind that vanity items' prices, whether we are talking about a Color Crystal in Swtor or Apple's iPhone, is NEVER in line with its value. It's not a mathematical equation where you put production cost and a fixed margin on one side and get the final price of the item on the other side. Vanity items have the distinct quality of being as valuable as people consider them to be and they are priced accordingly.

 

Unless of course... this whole issue here is that you just want that set that costs 1200 coins and you do not want to pay that much for it or buy it for a hefty amount of credits from the GTN... in which case...

Edited December 19, 2012 by TheNahash

[ScarletBlaze]

I have looked for any quote from any of the developers that stated this particular expansion would be free to subscribers and have not found it. The only discussion I could find was this back in August.

 

What (if anything) will subscribers have to pay for after F2P launches?

 

I wish I had a solid answer for you on that. We’re still in discussion about some of the larger content updates that we’re planning. Great example is the planet Makeb. We’ve talked about Makeb, we have a lot of plans around Makeb. I wish I could give you more details, but I can tell you that I think the playerbase is going to be really, really pleased. More story content. New and interesting things for the players to do. More systems and interesting functions in the game … I can’t go into a lot of detail, but around things like that … This is a pretty big piece (of content). It is probably all that I can say. It is definitely still for discussion whether we sell that to the subscriber or the subscriber gets that for free because it is a big beefy chunk of content.

 

 

 

http://www.swtor-life.com/video/the-...nterview/7112/

 

 

 

In reading this discussion no where does he say it would defintely be free only that it was still up for discussion.

Edited December 19, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[Invictos]

I'm aware that Swtor is a subscriber/F2P hybrid business model. But my point was vanity is expensive period. If we can for a minute reflect on the real world. Does anyone really need a million dollar gold plated bathtub? No, but celebrities have it and its expensive. Why? Because they can.

 

In the real world, gold has intrinsic value. If there were an infinite supply of gold-plated bathtubs, then they would be dirt cheap. I'm not saying that your opinion on EA's pricing is wrong, but that analogy doesn't hold water (no pun intended): Once an item has been designed in SWTOR, there is literally zero overhead to produce more of that item. Tuning the price from that point forward is purely a matter of maximizing revenue over time.

 

EDIT: Our thread -- which was about the pricing of cosmetic items in the Cartel Market, has been folded into a thread about the expansion. So if my post seems out of place, that's why.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Invictos

[Kashley]

Really, OP, this is just QQing for QQing's sake.

I will attribute this to your love of the game, because I too do not want to see it go down.

But if unreasonable prices on vanity items (that I can get through the GTN anyway...) is what we need to keep this game going, I'm all for it. Let them charge 1000$ for a mount. See if I care.

 

Unless of course... this whole issue here is that you just want that set that costs 1200 coins and you do not want to pay that much for it or buy it for a hefty amount of credits from the GTN... in which case...

 

I like how you call it QQ'ing when I question pricing. (Seems to be a trend on this forum whenever someone says something that isn't unquestionable praise.) I questioned the reasoning why something that takes more man hours cost less than some things that are simply recolored. I am asking for clarification on why the prices in the shop are so high comparable to that of the new expansion. The fact that you have resorted to calling my post a QQ speaks volumes about you. I feel I presented a reasonable argument and your resolved to try and discredit me based on what I have bolded out of your commentary. WHICH I addressed in an earlier post that you obviously did not bother to read.

 

My question still stands, when will the pricing in the market be addressed in relevance to the expansion and pretty much in general.

 

EDIT

O WOW Thanks BioWare for merging my thread into the one about you all supposedly lying about subs not having to pay for Makeb. How does the pricing on the cartel market in relevance to the cost of the expansion HAVE anything to do with you all being accused of lying about charging for Makeb? BRAVO.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Kashley

[TheNahash]

In the real world, gold has intrinsic value. If there were an infinite supply of gold-plated bathtubs, then they would be dirt cheap. I'm not saying that your opinion on EA's pricing is wrong, but that analogy doesn't hold water (no pun intended): Once an item has been designed in SWTOR, there is literally zero overhead to produce more of that item. Tuning the price from that point forward is purely a matter of maximizing revenue over time.

 

But it does hold water.

Materials might not be an issue here but rarity is. That's why the Overlord's Chair costs 2mil+ while you can find a normal mount for 9k. But still people are willing to pay credits and real life money to find/buy it. So as long as they keep something rare and as long as that something is considered "cool" by the community, they can charge for it as much as they want and there will be people willing to buy it.

[kamed]

In the real world, gold has intrinsic value. If there were an infinite supply of gold-plated bathtubs, then they would be dirt cheap. I'm not saying that your opinion on EA's pricing is wrong, but that analogy doesn't hold water (no pun intended): Once an item has been designed in SWTOR, there is literally zero overhead to produce more of that item. Tuning the price from that point forward is purely a matter of maximizing revenue over time.

 

EDIT: Our thread -- which was about the pricing of cosmetic items in the Cartel Market, has been folded into a thread about the expansion. So if my post seems out of place, that's why.

 

Yes, the pricing of gold is only as valuable as the perceived consumer demand for it. Gold has no actual practical value (unless they are used to conduct electricity in our electronics), I hope we all know that and that's why I picked it along with vanity items in-game. Both really add nothing except having bragging rights that you have said item. Yeah you can argue that gold can be used for buying power, but that's not the statement I am making here.

 

If you were hungry and stuck in a desert would you like to carry a bunch of gold bricks or some survival gear? This, I hope is a no brainer.

[TheNahash]

I like how you call it QQ'ing when I question pricing. (Seems to be a trend on this forum whenever someone says something that isn't unquestionable praise.) I questioned the reasoning why something that takes more man hours cost less than some things that are simply recolored. I am asking for clarification on why the prices in the shop are so high comparable to that of the new expansion. The fact that you have resorted to calling my post a QQ speaks volumes about you. I feel I presented a reasonable argument and your resolved to try and discredit me based on what I have bolded out of your commentary. WHICH I addressed in an earlier post that you obviously did not bother to read.

 

My question still stands, when will the pricing in the market be addressed in relevance to the expansion and pretty much in general.

 

So I got it all wrong? You're not actually complaining?

I like how your whole post is about how I unfairly said your post is just QQing (and btw, QQing is the trend on this forum, not praise) yet, I see no effort on your part to discredit what I said as nonsense. Oh, except that my post "speaks volumes about me".

 

So I went back and re-read your post:

 

My complaint is I want the pricing to make sense. In relation to each other it is extremely out of balance. I personally don't care for any of the items on the cartel market much less think they are worth the price tag stuck on them. However, I play with people who do like the items and I understand their frustration when they complain about the pricing. I cant reasonably explain why an armor set costs more than an expansion.

 

So...it's not 1200 CC that you don't want to spend, it's 1200 CC that your friends don't want to spend...

I don't see how that's SO different from my assumption, but you could start by explaining to them that they could buy a no-name shirt or a Ralph Lauren shirt, both of the same quality and time put into making them. Chances are the RL shirt will cost about 100$+ more than the no-name one just because they can sell it for that much. And that they will be perfectly fine wearing the no-name one, because it's essentially the same thing with a different logo on it.

 

Is that answer more in line with your question?

Edited December 19, 2012 by TheNahash

[Invictos]

But it does hold water.

Materials might not be an issue here but rarity is. That's why the Overlord's Chair costs 2mil+ while you can find a normal mount for 9k. But still people are willing to pay credits and real life money to find/buy it. So as long as they keep something rare and as long as that something is considered "cool" by the community, they can charge for it as much as they want and there will be people willing to buy it.

 

Yes, but the question is whether EA will earn more money by increasing its sales' volume (lowering prices). Your point about perceived value through rarity is only tenuously related, because the items we're discussing are only artificially rare (whereas gold is unavoidably and existentially rare). Yes, some items in SWTOR should be kept exceedingly rare for vanity purposes, but what should constitute a vanity item isn't cut-and-dried. Should the only hood-down jedi robes in the entire game be high-end vanity items, or are they -- as the design suggests, given that they're wearable at level 1 -- simply an extension of the character creator, a means by which people can suit their look to their characters' story?

 

Those two categories -- vanity and character customization -- aren't necessarily synonymous. We're not talking about the infamous EVE Online monocle here; we're talking about the general pricing of outfits. Uniqueness -- the ability to preen in front of other players -- is important, but it's not the only factor involved in a customer's decision to purchase an outfit. If you think a retinted armor skin or a similar-to-every-other-armor-but-for-the-hood's-placement outfit should be a status symbol, then we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion. You draw the status symbol line in a different place than I do, but rest assured, whether you realize it or not, you do draw that line somewhere.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Invictos

[Invictos]

Yes, the pricing of gold is only as valuable as the perceived consumer demand for it.

 

My point was that there isn't an infinite supply of gold. People who sell gold items have to adjust the price of those items based on the cost of materials, and gold is a very costly material. That's why your analogy's flawed. I'm not interested in debating whether gold is valuable to a starving man in a desert; that's less than irrelevant.

[Arkerus]

I have looked for any quote from any of the developers that stated this particular expansion would be free to subscribers and have not found it. The only discussion I could find was this back in August.

 

What (if anything) will subscribers have to pay for after F2P launches?

 

I wish I had a solid answer for you on that. We’re still in discussion about some of the larger content updates that we’re planning. Great example is the planet Makeb. We’ve talked about Makeb, we have a lot of plans around Makeb. I wish I could give you more details, but I can tell you that I think the playerbase is going to be really, really pleased. More story content. New and interesting things for the players to do. More systems and interesting functions in the game … I can’t go into a lot of detail, but around things like that … This is a pretty big piece (of content). It is probably all that I can say. It is definitely still for discussion whether we sell that to the subscriber or the subscriber gets that for free because it is a big beefy chunk of content.

 

 

 

http://www.swtor-life.com/video/the-...nterview/7112/

 

 

 

In reading this discussion no where does he say it would defintely be free only that it was still up for discussion.

 

This is exactly right. As I posted earlier, they danced around the questions and NEVER said it was free. While it may feel sneaky that they never said one way or another, they never, ever said it was free.

 

In the interview they dance around the question the same way.

 

The reality is folks, they never planned on giving it away for free. Get over it or move on. Your choice.

[TheNahash]

Yes, but the question is whether EA will earn more money by increasing its volume (lowering prices). Your point about perceived value through rarity is only tenuously related. Yes, some items should be kept exceedingly rare for vanity purposes, but what should constitute a vanity item isn't cut-and-dried. Should the only hood-down jedi robes in the entire game be high-end vanity items, or are they -- as the design suggests, given that they're wearable at level 1 -- simply an extension of the character creator, a means by which people can suit their look to their characters' story?

 

As I'm sure you know, you can price a product in one of two ways:

Either you set your price low, therefore you have a bigger customer base that spends less or you set the price high and have a smaller customer base that spends more.

There are of course some inherent limitations, considering the customer base is not the whole world but a few hundred thousand people of which some are totally indifferent to the whole idea of buying anything vanity-related. Bioware is still obviously testing its customer base's limits right now. They want to see how much is too much.

 

But as for your question, that is something that Bioware, who is obviously still testing the waters, should decide.

 

Those two categories -- vanity and character customization -- aren't necessarily synonymous. We're not talking about the infamous EVE Online monocle here; we're talking about the general pricing of outfits. Uniqueness -- the ability to preen in front of other players -- is important, but it's not the only factor involved in a customer's decision to purchase an outfit. If you think a retinted armor skin or a similar-to-every-other-armor-but-for-the-hood's-placement outfit should be a status symbol, then we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion. You draw the status symbol line in a different place than I do, but rest assured, whether you realize it or not, you do draw that line somewhere.

 

Believe me when I say that I don't really give much thought to how my character looks. Granted, I do not want him to look like an oversized chicken or like he jumped out of a Marvel comic, but I will not pay real life money to make him look better. I will try to find some gear I like through other means (questing, GTN etc.).

However you should not underestimate how much people are willing to pay to make a virtual character look as close to what they'd want him/her to look like.

 

Status symbols, whether they are recoloring of old armor or a previously unattainable hoods-down robe, is what a lot of people want. I'm definitely not saying that it's OK for Bioware to recolor a shell and try to pass it as something new, but what it all comes down to is that as long as people buy them, they will keep doing just that. Money speak louder than words sometimes and as long as they are rolling in they (think they) are on the right path.

[Durasturan]

There is certain MMO out there that charges $30 for a 5 level increase, with just an island of new content and Pandas, which sucks.

Stop whinning, it is an expansion by definition and the price is reasonable, even more for subscribers.

 

By MY definition of an expansion, an expansion must include a level cap increase, a new zone to explore, a new class and a new race. Since this doesn't have a new class or race it does not qualify as a expansion under my definition.

 

Oh and also the fact Jame's Ohlen specifically said it's NOT an expansion, it is a patch and nothing in their description of what this "expac" includes indicates they have substantially increased the amount of content it contains.

[Grayseven]

But to be truthful. Its not about the money.

 

You keep saying this, along with your lame "effect" thing, but in truth it IS about the money. Because if it isn't, you don't have an argument.

 

You were never told it was going to be free. You simply (and wrongly) interpreted an interview to say what you want it to say instead of what it actually says (or in this case, doesn't say). You infer so much in the video that your false outrage has you blind to the facts...FACTS...that no one ever said Makeb was going to be free.

 

The facts have been shown to you, along with the simple fact that you, as a "business man" (yeah, right) should know that business plans change.

 

Your constant statements to the contrary, for you it has to be about the money because nothing else makes sense.

[kamed]

My point was that there isn't an infinite supply of gold. People who sell gold items have to adjust the price of those items based on the cost of materials, and gold is a very costly material. That's why your analogy's flawed. I'm not interested in debating whether gold is valuable to a starving man in a desert; that's less than irrelevant.

 

You are taking snippets of the debate and not looking at the whole. Vanity items and gold products offer no practical value aside from bragging rights. Yes gold could be bartered for better things in real life, but the same could be said for vanity items. You have that overlord throne mount or revans mask? 1-2 million credits for it. How are either of them not similar?

 

I brought forth the food and the starving man example, because vanity is as useless as it is in this game as gold is useless to starving man in the desert.

[hoaxburn]

Expansion packs should make people happy. instead im reading all these complaints. i am worried about the lv cap 55. i dont think thats enoughts. at least 60. and then one day 100. and we shall have peaaaaacceeeeee

do you know all the content in makeb? because tell me i want to know everything. oh wait NO YOU DON'T KNOW IT.

[Quraswren]

Expansion packs should make people happy. instead im reading all these complaints. i am worried about the lv cap 55. i dont think thats enoughts. at least 60. and then one day 100. and we shall have peaaaaacceeeeee

 

I'm pretty excited about it and 5 new levels is not too bad but my current only real worry about the digital expansion is talent trees. Are they going to revamp them, tweak them a little or are we just going to get 5 more talent points?

 

So much more information I need and it's just not there yet. So I must wait.

[Eldrenath]

Quote: Originally Posted by ScarletBlaze View Post

I have looked for any quote from any of the developers that stated this particular expansion would be free to subscribers and have not found it. The only discussion I could find was this back in August.

 

What (if anything) will subscribers have to pay for after F2P launches?

 

I wish I had a solid answer for you on that. We’re still in discussion about some of the larger content updates that we’re planning. Great example is the planet Makeb. We’ve talked about Makeb, we have a lot of plans around Makeb. I wish I could give you more details, but I can tell you that I think the playerbase is going to be really, really pleased. More story content. New and interesting things for the players to do. More systems and interesting functions in the game … I can’t go into a lot of detail, but around things like that … This is a pretty big piece (of content). It is probably all that I can say. It is definitely still for discussion whether we sell that to the subscriber or the subscriber gets that for free because it is a big beefy chunk of content.

 

 

 

http://www.swtor-life.com/video/the-...nterview/7112/

 

 

 

In reading this discussion no where does he say it would defintely be free only that it was still up for discussion.

 

/thread.

 

If there's anywhere of record where BW/EA committed to delivering Makeb as part of a patch update, post the proof or drop it. Pics or it didn't happen, folks.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Eldrenath

[kcol]

And it took you an MMO to realize that, eh? Are you a teenager? Because in the grown-up world, seeing is believing.

 

But just to be clear they've said in the past that they were thinking about it, not that you'd get it for free. Plus, the details of what this expansion will be are so little right now that even if you are right, we will not know until we know everything that will be included.

 

Not at first, it wasn't until they gave up and went F2P that it was started to be questioned. I like how the fanboys are so eager to forget the past. All you have to do is look it up on the forums, it's all there in black and white and color video. They held back this content update until after F2P was live, it has been ready for months and was show cased at E3 here http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/preview-exciting-new-reveals-e3. The same can be said for AH and the corresponding WZ. This company is FAIL and will continue to be as long as they continually treat it's loyal customer base in this fashion.

 

It was also promised to be released this year.

Edited December 19, 2012 by kcol
more info

[Ultramecha]

/thread.

 

If there's anywhere of record where BW/EA committed to delivering Makeb as part of a patch update, post the proof or drop it. Pics or it didn't happen, folks.

 

I think a Bioware dev said something along the lines that they were not sure yet if they would charge for Makeb or not because of it being such a big chunk of content. I'm sure its in the dev tracker history.

[Ultramecha]

Not at first, it wasn't until they gave up and went F2P that it was started to be questioned. I like how the fanboys are so eager to forget the past. All you have to do is look it up on the forums, it's all there in black and white and color video. They held back this content update until after F2P was live, it has been ready for months and was show cased at E3 here http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/preview-exciting-new-reveals-e3. The same can be said for AH and the corresponding WZ. This company is FAIL and will continue to be as long as they continually treat it's loyal customer base in this fashion.

 

If u hate the company why stick around? Why waste time here instead of playing something else...?