PVE Tank 27/14/0?

[planet_J]

Ok...so looking at it...it seems as though the last 2 tank abilities are really not that great...so I was thinking about grabbing a few more skills in vengeance. Primarily looking at the bleeds for force scream and unstoppable on force charge....thoughts?

 

-EDIT- tweaked it a bit to pick up the boost in smash damage to get better aoe threat generation. I dropped the bleeds on force scream.

Edited December 15, 2012 by planet_J

[Elyx]

That's the direction many people are going nowadays. What you spend your extra points in is personal pref. I myself like either unstoppable (huge defensive bonus, especially if your using your leap and intercede skills well), or the extra threat/damage from smash.

 

essentially, the last two tiers of immortal really aren't attractive enough IMO. the only one that I feel is worth it is the extra rage from soresu...and I'm almost irritated it's up there. It's like Bio had no clue what to do with immortal, so they added a critical element there to almost "force" us to spec that high. gets on my nerves. but it boils down to a choice of:

 

extra rage

extra smash and sweep damage

20% DR on leap

 

so to me its a flexibility thing. with the free respec it only takes me about 2 minutes to alter my spec, so i have no problems switching a few points in the midst of a run if I need to.

[planet_J]

I am really liking the extra threat in smash...makes it easier to keep aggro in groups. My teammates seem to really enjoy it as well...lol

[Aikon]

My main is a Guardian, which is the mirror class to Juggernaut, and it sounds like you run a very close variation of what I run for PvE. I came across the 27/14/0 spec back in January (in this exact section of the forums) when my Juggernaut was my main (yeah, yeah... I betrayed the Empire and went soft). I have not changed my primary spec since and have never looked back, though I have messed around with a few points here and there to fine tune.

 

The popular thing is to do is run 31 points in defense/immortal or hybrid with more points in vigilence/vengeance, but if you can run 27/14/0 and have the gear, it really is a fun tank spec to run.

[HoboWithAStick]

I would never let a tank into my raid that wasn't full 31 tank spec. Jugs especially since they don't hold threat no matter what they do anyways.

[Aikon]

I would never let a tank into my raid that wasn't full 31 tank spec. Jugs especially since they don't hold threat no matter what they do anyways.

 

Unfortunately, that is the common perception of Juggernaut/Guardian tanks whom are not full 31's. I agree that it can be very difficult for this class to hold aggro and I've seen many more bad tanks than good tanks. It is fair to generalize, but I can say that I'm a fairly successful tank that runs 27/14/0.

 

Is it difficult to play this spec? I can't really answer that question because I've been running the same spec for months and months, and I run it comfortably and successfully. I do have all Black Hole/Campaign level gear, though. However, I didn't get all geared out until about two months ago, and I still tanked fairly well.

 

I think it really depends on the player with this spec. Is it easier to run full 31 tank tree? Yes. It is easier to run hybrid with more points in vigilence/vengeance? Probably, too. All about personal preference, I suppose, and if you can play the role you're needed to play successfully.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Aikon

[WillLongstick]

I would never let a tank into my raid that wasn't full 31 tank spec. Jugs especially since they don't hold threat no matter what they do anyways.

 

Then you're missing out. I run a 17/24/0 spec that goes up Immortal far enough for the force scream bubble, and up Vengeance far enough for the 4% Damage Reduction and Impale. Trading 4% Shield Chance for 4% Damage Reduction is a significant step up in survivability, and taking Impale on a 9 second cooldown will generate more aggro than Crushing Blow (top talent in tank tree) as it's on a 15 second cooldown. I've never tried the 27/14/0 or similar build but I sure bet getting a point of rage every 3 seconds makes aggro work out.

 

All around though, aggro is starting to slide in respect to the numbers some DPS are pushing. I'm working on NiM EC right now and to beat the enrage timer on the tanks DPS can't sit back for very long and an unguarded Sin DPS was ripping aggro off the Sin Tank on Stormcaller a few times since you can't roll taunts to start that fight. Speccing one way or another doesn't significantly help the situation when tanks can pull 700 DPS and several classes are pulling 1800+ over the course of a fight.

 

There is one valid point sort of made in the quoted comment, Juggs are the only tank AC with a viable hybrid build.

[planet_J]

My smash is a more effective aoe threat generator period. With 130% threat that hits 5 targets instead of 3 and applies 4 stacks of sunder to all and it does 130%ish damage...I am keeping everything in front of me pissed at me even easier than before...

[HBCentaurion]

Anyone have a link to this build?

[planet_J]

I will post a darthhater build to my jugg later...at work atm and can't copy/paste the link from my phone

[wadecounty]

27/14 for PvE makes no sense, you sacrifice 10 Rage per minute from Sweeping Fury and a huge threat generator in Crushing Blow, and all you get out of it is Unstoppable (great in PvP, a very small bonus in PvE) and I guess the bleed on Scream (barely any damage).

 

The reason the regular hybrid spec is so good is because it reduces the cooldown on Force Scream, giving you more damage and more Sonic Barriers, it gives you Impale to replace Crushing Blow as your big threat generator, and Deafening Defense gets you more overall mitigation. This 27/14 hybrid does none of that, and just sacrifices things to aid your threat for things that won't and Unstoppable.

 

At the VERY least, I'd go 27/12/2 and pick up the boost to Smash, but in reality, neither of these make sense for PvE, you need either Crushing Blow or Impale for burst threat. It'll be fine for hard mode flashpoints, but you'll start out every boss fight in an operation constantly losing aggro to your DPS.

[planet_J]

My build is 27/12/2 and increased threat and damage from smash is more effective in my experience, for pve aoe threat generation, than crushing blow which costs more rage, does less damage, and hits fewer targets with a comparable if not a tad longer cooldown...

[wadecounty]

My build is 27/12/2 and increased threat and damage from smash is more effective in my experience, for pve aoe threat generation, than crushing blow which costs more rage, does less damage, and hits fewer targets with a comparable if not a tad longer cooldown...

 

Right but then why the hell wouldn't you spec 31/7/3, get improved Smash damage, AND Crushing Blow, and even a small boost to Ravage, at the expense of Unstoppable, an ability that only truly shines in PvP?

 

You do the hybrid for Deafening Defense, Impale and shortened cooldown on Force Scream, NOT for Unstoppable, that's just a nice bonus along the way.

 

If you don't have either Impale or Crushing Blow, your ability to hold single target threat is going to be pathetic, even moreso than it already is for a Juggernaut compared to other tanks.

 

EDIT: And again, if this is just for tanking content you outgear and hard mode flashpoints, that's fine, have at it. Do whatever you want actually, it'll all work. But if you plan to progression raid in this spec, I wouldn't take you with me.

Edited December 22, 2012 by wadecounty

[planet_J]

I have smash, force scream, force choke and ravage for threat generation and couple that with liberal use of backhand...my TEAMMATES have said they prefer my spec for raids...particularly the healers and ranged DPS who aren't pulling aggro as much. And in case you ask...my gear hasn't changed.

[wadecounty]

I have smash, force scream, force choke and ravage for threat generation and couple that with liberal use of backhand...my TEAMMATES have said they prefer my spec for raids...particularly the healers and ranged DPS who aren't pulling aggro as much. And in case you ask...my gear hasn't changed.

 

So are you tanking hard mode Terror or nightmare Denova?

 

If not... if you're tanking story mode ops, or hard mode EV/KP or something, in 61/63's, then again, your spec doesn't matter, you outgear the content.

 

If you ARE tanking the current hardest tier of content in that spec, then I don't know what to tell you. Its mathematical fact that Impale or Crushing Blow being used on cooldown would greatly improve your threat. Liberal use of Backhand? Its cooldown is 1 minute, and nobody but the worst tanks in the world are losing aggro 1 minute into the fight.

 

I will say that its not going to be a huge difference, you'll just be able to keep the boss from being ripped off you early on a bit sooner in the fight (DPS are GOING to rip, but Crushing Blow can both keep that from happening for an extra GCD or 2, and help it stop happening a bit earlier in the fight than without Crushing Blow). But AGAIN, the only thing you gain from going 12 into Vengeance instead of getting Sweeping Fury and Crushing Blow, is Unstoppable... which is pointless, because in most fights its only going to proc once, at the start, or on tank swaps, and those are NOT times where you need the damage reduction because your healers are watching you closely at those times.

 

To summarize, you are choosing Unstoppable over Crushing Blow for PvE. That is gimping your spec, and good DPS will rip off you constantly at the start of a fight. If your DPS aren't ripping off you constantly in that spec, you run with bad DPS or you only do easy content.

[HBCentaurion]

wadecounty; do you have a link to your build?

[planet_J]

HM EV/KP in 56 gear...the sniper in our guild in full campaign is about the only dps that got so problematic that I have started guarding him over the healers. Once I made that change things have gone smoothly. I don't anticipate future problems yet, but if I run into them, then I will adjust accordingly until I find a new build that best works for me and my guild. The dps I run with are mostly rakata/columi mix and I hold aggro just fine...

[planet_J]

wadecounty; do you have a link to your build?

 

I will link you my build plus the builds of the other jugg tanks in my guild...it will be 3 total.

 

A 27/12/2 an 18/23 and a 31/10

[wetslampigduex]

HM EV/KP in 56 gear...the sniper in our guild in full campaign is about the only dps that got so problematic that I have started guarding him over the healers. Once I made that change things have gone smoothly. I don't anticipate future problems yet, but if I run into them, then I will adjust accordingly until I find a new build that best works for me and my guild. The dps I run with are mostly rakata/columi mix and I hold aggro just fine...

 

and after reading this comment i hope everyone moves on and uses there time more efficiently... i dont understand why a pve tank would use anything but a 31 point build. As other stated hybrids are pvp use only don't bring that garbage to my raids. Passing on 4% increase to internal and elemental dmg?!?!? giving up a passive ability that grants you rage?!?! Not taking crushing blow?!?! instant 3 stack of armor debuff and high threat which you juggys suck at, my guess would be that this guy also takes thrown gauntlets cause he like the animation

 

Run it if you want, also enjoy your time in EV and KP cause that will be all your clearing

 

edit: havnt touched my juggy since last Jan. but in about 30 seconds i came to the conclusion that there is no reason not to go with a 31 or even 32 point build in the tanking tree

Edited December 26, 2012 by wetslampigduex

[Anvillian]

This is the spec I've been using for all Flashpoints and Ops, and haven't had any issue. Juggs/Guards still need a bit of a threat buff to their abilities, but apart from that, this spec is great.

 

32 / 7 / 2

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GMGbudMdfzZcMMZ0M.2

Edited December 27, 2012 by Anvillian

[Xtrema]

HM EV/KP in 56 gear...the sniper in our guild in full campaign is about the only dps that got so problematic that I have started guarding him over the healers.

 

Your guard should be on dps at all times to begin with. 25% threat reduction is always better than a 5% damage reduction on the healers. (unless ur on last phase of tfb hm, because ur dps doesn't generate threat on the big boss - and even then you're guarding the healers to reduce their threat, not for the dmg reduction)

 

and after reading this comment i hope everyone moves on and uses there time more efficiently... i dont understand why a pve tank would use anything but a 31 point build. As other stated hybrids are pvp use only don't bring that garbage to my raids. Passing on 4% increase to internal and elemental dmg?!?!? giving up a passive ability that grants you rage?!?! Not taking crushing blow?!?! instant 3 stack of armor debuff and high threat which you juggys suck at, my guess would be that this guy also takes thrown gauntlets cause he like the animation

 

Run it if you want, also enjoy your time in EV and KP cause that will be all your clearing

 

edit: havnt touched my juggy since last Jan. but in about 30 seconds i came to the conclusion that there is no reason not to go with a 31 or even 32 point build in the tanking tree

 

I think you're only reading what you want to read. 4% reduction to internal/elemental is swapped for 4% reduction to all damage, and if you can manage properly an additional 15% reduction to all damage popping enraged defense. You also get Force Scream more often which means more procs of Sonic Barrier, as in more mitigation. Impale replaces Crushing Blow perfectly fine. A free smash coupled with Quake is also a great way to help mitigation, and of course Unstoppable is just a nice bonus (+20% DR to all damage again after jumps, which btw happens more often than u think).

 

Full 31 juggs are viable, but the immortal tree is seriously lacking in many areas. That's why hybrids are formed, and the way to go nowadays. Plenty of discussion backing that on these forums.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Xtrema

[planet_J]

and after reading this comment i hope everyone moves on and uses there time more efficiently... i dont understand why a pve tank would use anything but a 31 point build. As other stated hybrids are pvp use only don't bring that garbage to my raids. Passing on 4% increase to internal and elemental dmg?!?!? giving up a passive ability that grants you rage?!?! Not taking crushing blow?!?! instant 3 stack of armor debuff and high threat which you juggys suck at, my guess would be that this guy also takes thrown gauntlets cause he like the animation

 

Run it if you want, also enjoy your time in EV and KP cause that will be all your clearing

 

edit: havnt touched my juggy since last Jan. but in about 30 seconds i came to the conclusion that there is no reason not to go with a 31 or even 32 point build in the tanking tree

 

Evidently...you're not reading what I said...

 

I will repeat for posterity...

 

SMASH RECHARGES FASTER, COSTS LESS RAGE, HITS MORE TARGETS, APPLIES MORE SUNDER TO MORE TARGETS, AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT DOES MORE DAMAGE AND THUS GENERATES MORE THREAT BECAUSE OF 30% THREAT BUFF AND 28+% DAMAGE BUFF.

 

Any questions?

Edited December 27, 2012 by planet_J

[Anvillian]

I think you're only reading what you want to read. 4% reduction to internal/elemental is swapped for 4% reduction to all damage, and if you can manage properly an additional 15% reduction to all damage popping enraged defense.

This is where i strongly disagree. You're missing out on Shield Specialization, which gives a continuous, passive 4% increase in shield chance as opposed to roughly 19% damage reduction every 35 seconds. If you spec/gear properly, you can bring your shield chance over 50% very easily, which increases survivability significantly. You're also missing out on Dark Blood, which increases the duration of endure pain by an additional 5 seconds. If you couple the Rakata medpac from Biochem which provides 15% extra health as well as a decent heal, Endure pain (now in a 15 second duration due to Dark blood talent) with Enraged defense, you'll be healing for quite a bit of health.

Biochem is the only viable crew skill a tank should have. Those rakata stims / Adrenals / Medpacs are insanely useful. Since they're all reusable, You'd be crazy not to pick them up!

 

You also get Force Scream more often which means more procs of Sonic Barrier, as in more mitigation.

That is a good talent, but its just a bonus, frequent use of force scream (by 3 seconds difference) does NOT make or break a tank.

 

Impale replaces Crushing Blow perfectly fine.

No it does not. People confuse the relationship with damage and threat. They are not proportional to each other. Damage, does provide a small % of threat, but the tank's abilities have an added % threat on top of their damage, which allows them to hold aggro over heavy dps'ers. Impale is a damage dealing ability, it does not have a % threat aspect in its mechanic unlike Crushing Blow. Therefore Impale is uselss for tanks as it does not provide any additional threat. Crushing blow also has a nice effect of adding 3 stacks of sunder armor on and around the main target and a small AoE knockdown. Basically a tank's Cleave.

 

A free smash coupled with Quake is also a great way to help mitigation, and of course Unstoppable is just a nice bonus (+20% DR to all damage again after jumps, which btw happens more often than u think).

That is not a big deal, Tanks already generate rage easily and efficiently for them to use all their abilities without having to run out of rage. If they do run out, They have Enrage to help them out.

 

Unstoppable is a strict pvp talent. The damage reduction for 4 seconds and immunity is absoutley not worth it in PvE. You will not be charging frequently enough to make use of the 20% damage reduction. The uptime for charge during a boss fight or AoE fights is the longest because you wont be using charge since all your targets will be around you. I just dont understand why people say unstoppable is good, its not, It has no place in PvE apart for SOME bosses, the only one i can think off, is Hk-57 in foundry. Since he stealths and appears anywhere in the area.

 

Full 31 juggs are viable, but the immortal tree is seriously lacking in many areas. That's why hybrids are formed, and the way to go nowadays. Plenty of discussion backing that on these forums.

The Immortal tree is fine, it could use some adjustments to some threat generation. Hybrids at this scale are formed when people try to mix PvP with PvE. People that can't be bothered changing their talents when going from a warzone to a flashpoint or vice versa.

 

Evidently...you're not reading what I said...

 

I will repeat for posterity...

 

SMASH RECHARGES FASTER, COSTS LESS RAGE, HITS MORE TARGETS, APPLIES MORE SUNDER TO MORE TARGETS, AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT DOES MORE DAMAGE AND THUS GENERATES MORE THREAT BECAUSE OF 30% THREAT BUFF AND 28+% DAMAGE BUFF.

 

Any questions?

 

Smash recharging is good, but It's not a big deal, its only AoE. The spec ive linked does all of that, except for smash recharging quicker, which like i said just before, provides no real mitigation, only damage and threat.

[Xtrema]

This is where i strongly disagree. You're missing out on Shield Specialization, which gives a continuous, passive 4% increase in shield chance as opposed to roughly 19% damage reduction every 35 seconds.

 

Enraged Defense is not used on CD, so its not 19% DR every 35 seconds. We're talking 4% damage reduction to all damage which is also continuous/passive at all times. The extra 15% from enraged def is tricky to manage but if used properly is a huge DR bonus that also comes with innate healing.

 

What you're ultimately trading is 4% reduction to elemental/internal which deafening defense more than covers, and a 4% shield vs 4% total mitigation. That's 4% flat reduction of any incoming damage that doesnt require a shield proc. Its just plain better than a 4% boost to shield that will only increase your chance to proc ur absorb %.

 

 

That is a good talent, but its just a bonus, frequent use of force scream (by 3 seconds difference) does NOT make or break a tank.

 

This is so not a bonus. It's IMO the biggest selling point of hybrid, 3 seconds might seem small but over the course of an operations boss fight which lasts several minutes, the increased uptime of sonic barrier is huge. Combine this with our set bonus of +20% absorb, then throw in a rakata adrenal with force scream you'll be absorbing a huge amount. There's plenty of parses/math supporting this, I'm not gonna misquote them by going off memory, but the additional amount you end up absorbing is way more than you think.

 

No it does not. People confuse the relationship with damage and threat. They are not proportional to each other. Damage, does provide a small % of threat, but the tank's abilities have an added % threat on top of their damage, which allows them to hold aggro over heavy dps'ers. Impale is a damage dealing ability, it does not have a % threat aspect in its mechanic unlike Crushing Blow. Therefore Impale is uselss for tanks as it does not provide any additional threat. Crushing blow also has a nice effect of adding 3 stacks of sunder armor on and around the main target and a small AoE knockdown. Basically a tank's Cleave.

 

No offense, but I think you're the one confused . Every point of damage is translated to a point of threat. WIth Soresu it translates into two. Much more than "a small % of threat". Impale may not have the % threat boost but it more than makes up for it with it's much higher damage. All you really need to do is check out a parse to see that they are in fact very even. Impale will also be on a shorter CD than CB. Here's an example, a crit and a non-crit from each one:

 

Crushing Blow hits The Writhing Horror for 1000 energy damage, causing 2601 threat.

Crushing Blow critically hits The Writhing Horror for 1475* energy damage, causing 3837 threat!

 

Impale hits The Writhing Horror for 1391 energy damage, causing 2782 threat.

Impale critically hits Jealous Male for 1976* energy damage, causing 3953 threat!

 

Small sample size I know and admittedly I just pulled the first one I found but def not as far apart as you thought was it?

 

Unstoppable is a strict pvp talent. The damage reduction for 4 seconds and immunity is absoutley not worth it in PvE. You will not be charging frequently enough to make use of the 20% damage reduction. The uptime for charge during a boss fight or AoE fights is the longest because you wont be using charge since all your targets will be around you. I just dont understand why people say unstoppable is good, its not, It has no place in PvE apart for SOME bosses, the only one i can think off, is Hk-57 in foundry. Since he stealths and appears anywhere in the area.

 

Unstoppable is just a bonus we get on our way up to the real strengths of hybrid. It's a huge quality of life as almost everything has a knockback even in PvE. 20% addition to DR for 4 seconds is still 20% DR. But again, this is strictly a bonus.

 

The Immortal tree is fine, it could use some adjustments to some threat generation. Hybrids at this scale are formed when people try to mix PvP with PvE. People that can't be bothered changing their talents when going from a warzone to a flashpoint or vice versa.

 

This is not an issue anymore with subscribers getting free respecs, yet there's still a ton of tanks running hybrid (and yes, using it to clear the latest end game content)

 

Personally it doesn't sound like you've ever even tried the hybrid spec, if you can get past the myth that most of these abilities are "PvP only" you'll see that they really aren't, and really do make a difference in PvE. It's not for everyone, and does have issues with rage, but at least give it a shot. I did and never looked back

Edited December 27, 2012 by Xtrema

[planet_J]

If you don't want your DPS ripping aggro constantly, having Smash up more frequently generating more aoe threat is HUGE!