Rage DPS for PVE?

[MantorokTwelve]

I've mostly been raiding as vengeance (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#1010MZcGMRMuddGoZGz0M.2), and have been able to put up competitive numbers, but a guildie told me about a jugg he knew that saw his DPS jump by like 500 when he made the switch from ravagespam to smashspam.

 

Problem is, I don't know the rotation for rage as well as I do for vengeance, I'm not sure how to manage my shockwave procs (should I always smash on cd, regardless of shockwaves, when do I choke, when do I crush, when do I enrage). Not entirely sure about the build either. Figured something like this (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101MZcMMZhMRrdfRbfz.2), but not entirely sure where to put the last point.

 

Also, not sure on what gear set to get. I've been using the PVP shells for the 10% extra damage after jumping (the 8% health from intercede is situationally useful too). The 2 piece bonus for PVE seems decent, 5 seconds off of enrage to bring it down to every 35 seconds sounds pretty awesome. 4 piece PVE seems fairly worthless though, saber throw isn't much more than an extra rage builder.

 

Any help would be appreciated. And for those who think rage isn't viable for raids, I have 109% force crit multiplier in rage, and I'm about half 61/63 gear.

Edited December 7, 2012 by MantorokTwelve

[Uniclonus]

Argh. Had a reply typed up, and the site ate it. Ok, let's try again

 

Take this with a potential grain of salt. I don't get to run my Rage Jugg too often since I'm usually healing, so I freely admit I could be doing it wrong.

I tend use Enrage as part of my opening Charge in and Smash. After that I start hitting abilities to bring down the cooldown on Smash. When it gets low, toss a Crush then Obliterate, then Smash. After that I start cycling around through the Assaults and Vicious Slash till about 3 seconds left on the CD for either Oblit or Smash. At that point, Choke to get the Shockwave, then the obvious. After that point, I pretty much use Crush whenever it's up, Choke when it's up and Crush isn't, and use Enrage when both Crush and Choke are down or if I need the 4 stacks immediately. I usually have very little downtime when Smash is up but Shockwave stacks aren't. The times when that happens, it's usually a couple seconds wait till something for Shockwave is off CD, so I fill the time with something like Ravage.

 

The tree looks good. Only difference I have is I cut Stagger for Improved Sundering (stuff usually either doesn't move when I Smash, or can't be immobilized anyway). The last point is kinda a dead point. There's no clear best place to put it that I've found. I've got it in Enraged Sunder, but I'm tempted to try out Quake. Accuracy is also an option though, to be able to wring a little more Surge out of gear.

 

Gear wise, I'm running the 2 piece Vindicator for that Enrage cooldown reduction. It's sick and helps you have the Shockwave pretty much everytime Smash is ready. The 4 piece is pointless, since Throw isn't needed to build Rage (free Smashs and all the use of Enrage means I'm never at a loss for it). I ended up grabbing a set of Weaponmaster gloves and boots for that 2 piece bonus. I figured cheaper Vicious Throw would be nice, since it's one of the things that can cut the cooldown on Smash.

[MantorokTwelve]

Derp I didn't mean to put stagger on that tree, meant to have improved sunder.

 

I figured enrage, jump, smash would be my opener, I do something similar with vengeance. What I do right now in vengeance is I pop a dread guard on use relic, then equip my PVP stat stick relic before we start the fight. Then I pop my adrenal while I'm in midair, then ravage as soon as I land. If I do that except with smash, I'll be doing some damn good damage (and threat).

 

I guess accuracy would be a good place to put that last point. I was thinking maybe enraged sunder, as I use it on my vengeance spec, but with one point it doesn't seem that great, neither does payback. Accuracy would give me a little more armor penetration, which is never a bad thing, plus more hits whenever I'm not choking, crushing, screaming, or smashing.

 

I'm still not sure about the set bonuses though. I really like the PVP bonus because of how many bosses in this game have phases that require you to move. Pretty much the only bosses where I don't benefit from the PVP set are minefield and the last phase of TFB, every other raid boss has a lot of opportunities for me to charge in. I think overall I'd parse out to get more damage out of the damage buff than the lowered enrage cooldown. Could really help in phases where you have to push the boss (purple level on operator, stormcaller in NiM).

 

And who knows, if I get REALLY pro and am able to use intercede as part of my rotation, I could jump to a healer and then back on the boss, get that 10% bonus every 20 seconds or so. That's a 10% damage buff with a 20 second cooldown. I thought it was great for ravage, but with the raw burst of smash it could be crazy. I get a full ravage channel into the damage buff, should be able to fit in a smash and a scream instead of that.

Edited December 7, 2012 by MantorokTwelve

[KVork]

Definitely usefull in PVE.

 

Rotation of Shockwaves goes as follows:

Enrage

Crush

Choke

Crush

Enrage

Crush

 

At this moment you will get your first smash without full shockwave.

 

Use Intercede/Charge Combo if Obliterate is on CD (basicaly every other smash). Also use Enraged Defense more often than less (it is GCD, can pop it midair during intercede), huge threat drop for 2 rage is important because you will propably not be guarded, and at the same time your DPS may be quite high.

 

In rage 2pc set bonus is a must (Enrage CD red) and then second one depends on your style. One can argue if 4pc PVP set can be more boosting for Rage Juggernaut (full buffed Smash+Ravage/or Scream with +10% dmg ... scary )

Getting 2pc Weaponmaster bonus for cheaper Vicious Throw may be also a good one, didnt test it yet thou.

[OlosBC]

Damn this thread, ate my post too hah.

 

Good info, I recently went focus on my guardian, and have been looking for this info.

[MantorokTwelve]

I talked to the jugg I talked about in the OP, and I've learned a lot.

 

Most important thing for ALL juggs, is that apparently we don't get any benefit from other players' armor debuffs whatsoever. That's why you can't use shatter until you get your own sunder up in vengeance. So for max DPS, we need to keep our own sunders up 100% of the time. Which isn't a bad thing, because sunder is a great rage generator.

 

But anyways, he told me his opening is saber throw, charge, crush, sunder, smash, and then have a priority of crush > choke > enrage for shockwaves, keep ravage on cooldown, always use your free scream from your jump abilities, keep saber throw on cooldown (4 piece PVE bonus), and dump rage into vicious slash when necessary. He said always rage dump before hitting enrage, if you have more than 2 rage when you pop enrage you've wasted resources.

 

Another important thing is he said he never uses enraged defense, and always gets a guard from a tank. The reason for this is simple; the juggernaut has the worst threat drop of any class. It costs 2-4 rage, and then takes away up to 1 rage per second for the next 10 seconds. No other class has a threat drop that costs anything (except powertechs, they don't have threat drops at all, so they'd get a guard too).

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101MZcMMZGMRrdfMrcz.2 that's his spec, I disagreed with him about picking up interceptor, but he said payback was situational, 1 rage for force crush isn't worth a point, and he doesn't use enraged defense, while extra speed can help during positioning in fights like kephess and the dread guard. I would consider putting 1 point into accuracy until I get mine up to 99%, but otherwise it looks good.

 

For stats, he said he stacks power/surge, and augments with strength, minimize crit rating (since we get force crit bonus and smash is autocrit). Right now my power is at 1119, force bonus damage is at 1098.8, force crit multiplier is at 109.23%. I'm going to hit something HARD.

[Okuy]

I've mostly been raiding as vengeance (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#1010MZcGMRMuddGoZGz0M.2), and have been able to put up competitive numbers, but a guildie told me about a jugg he knew that saw his DPS jump by like 500 when he made the switch from ravagespam to smashspam.

 

Problem is, I don't know the rotation for rage as well as I do for vengeance, I'm not sure how to manage my shockwave procs (should I always smash on cd, regardless of shockwaves, when do I choke, when do I crush, when do I enrage). Not entirely sure about the build either. Figured something like this (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101MZcMMZhMRrdfRbfz.2), but not entirely sure where to put the last point.

 

Also, not sure on what gear set to get. I've been using the PVP shells for the 10% extra damage after jumping (the 8% health from intercede is situationally useful too). The 2 piece bonus for PVE seems decent, 5 seconds off of enrage to bring it down to every 35 seconds sounds pretty awesome. 4 piece PVE seems fairly worthless though, saber throw isn't much more than an extra rage builder.

 

Any help would be appreciated. And for those who think rage isn't viable for raids, I have 109% force crit multiplier in rage, and I'm about half 61/63 gear.

 

Personally i find they both come close for me. First time doing rage on the dummy i pulled 1900 pretty easy. didnt upload it cause i was pretty P.O. about how easy numbers could be pulled with rage. but vengeance forever and always.

[Okuy]

I've mostly been raiding as vengeance (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#1010MZcGMRMuddGoZGz0M.2), and have been able to put up competitive numbers, but a guildie told me about a jugg he knew that saw his DPS jump by like 500 when he made the switch from ravagespam to smashspam.

 

Problem is, I don't know the rotation for rage as well as I do for vengeance, I'm not sure how to manage my shockwave procs (should I always smash on cd, regardless of shockwaves, when do I choke, when do I crush, when do I enrage). Not entirely sure about the build either. Figured something like this (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101MZcMMZhMRrdfRbfz.2), but not entirely sure where to put the last point.

 

Also, not sure on what gear set to get. I've been using the PVP shells for the 10% extra damage after jumping (the 8% health from intercede is situationally useful too). The 2 piece bonus for PVE seems decent, 5 seconds off of enrage to bring it down to every 35 seconds sounds pretty awesome. 4 piece PVE seems fairly worthless though, saber throw isn't much more than an extra rage builder.

 

Any help would be appreciated. And for those who think rage isn't viable for raids, I have 109% force crit multiplier in rage, and I'm about half 61/63 gear.

 

CHANGE YOUR SPEC NOW! Disgraceful spec... venge spec is off by a million miles... what thought process were you going through?? and that rage spec is pretty off as well. 4/32/5 thats your Mauull the merciless exclusive.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Okuy

[MantorokTwelve]

CHANGE YOUR SPEC NOW! Disgraceful spec... venge spec is off by a million miles... what thought process were you going through?? and that rage spec is pretty off as well. 4/32/5 thats your Mauull the merciless exclusive.

 

Feel free to tell me what I should be doing then

[Karasuko]

I've mostly been raiding as vengeance (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#1010MZcGMRMuddGoZGz0M.2), and have been able to put up competitive numbers, but a guildie told me about a jugg he knew that saw his DPS jump by like 500 when he made the switch from ravagespam to smashspam.

 

Problem is, I don't know the rotation for rage as well as I do for vengeance, I'm not sure how to manage my shockwave procs (should I always smash on cd, regardless of shockwaves, when do I choke, when do I crush, when do I enrage). Not entirely sure about the build either. Figured something like this (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101MZcMMZhMRrdfRbfz.2), but not entirely sure where to put the last point.

 

Also, not sure on what gear set to get. I've been using the PVP shells for the 10% extra damage after jumping (the 8% health from intercede is situationally useful too). The 2 piece bonus for PVE seems decent, 5 seconds off of enrage to bring it down to every 35 seconds sounds pretty awesome. 4 piece PVE seems fairly worthless though, saber throw isn't much more than an extra rage builder.

 

Any help would be appreciated. And for those who think rage isn't viable for raids, I have 109% force crit multiplier in rage, and I'm about half 61/63 gear.

 

I honestly dislike the way Rage plays in pve, 1 GCD every 10 seconds shines, the rest are "*** am i doing?" damagewise. Not to say it can't put out good numbers I just find my personal preference is for the sustained dps that doesn't spike as much.

 

Where rage really shines is on the following sort of fights.

-Fights with adds

-2 target fights that are close together (none that i can think of)

 

As for set bonuses thats really somethign of personal and on a fight to fight basis thing.

2pce mara pve- average.

2pce jugg pve- hot hot hot

4-pce Jugg pvp- abit above average (saber throw hits pretty hard for a rage gen)

2pce pvp- Situationally average, overall pretty poor because you ahve healers.

4pce- pvp very fight dependant (id say quite good for HM TFB

 

Asto gear.

remove all crit from your gear. Stack power and surge.

 

Rotation is easy

-Smash. 4 stacks of sing,force charge buff

-Vicious throw

--force crush/enrage/choke

-ravage

-mini jump move that does damage (nfi what the imp version is)

-force scream

-sundering strike.

-saber throw

-white swing equiv

[MantorokTwelve]

Only crit I have is in my earpiece, I just switched out all my mods for power/surge. I don't think rage is that bad outside of smash, I've seen good damage with scream, ravage, and vicious slash.

[arkitip]

Do NOT.remove all your crit gear. The only time that's acceptable is for PVP. For PvE the returns on 125-150 crit rating are too good to pass up even for a spec that has 30% of its damage come from an auto crit ability.

[Elyx]

Do NOT.remove all your crit gear. The only time that's acceptable is for PVP. For PvE the returns on 125-150 crit rating are too good to pass up even for a spec that has 30% of its damage come from an auto crit ability.

 

Yeah...its pretty silly to kill all your crit only because of 30-40% of your damage doesn't use it. it just becomes less critical (hehe punny....)

 

I actually like them both. Rage feels very mobile. i don't have to be on the mob at all times I build up and pow!. I don't feel like i have to be on the mob 100% of the time. drop crush, whack other mobs whiel it builds, and let go, and they all die. But it also feels less smooth then vengeance. But it's fun to click just a few attacks, and lay everything out with one hit.

 

Vengeance is my go too, love it, love the style and animations. I see Rage being viable, but i don't like the lack of range gen (not as bad as it was, but still less then vengeance), and i miss all the defensive abilities i get from vengeance.

 

Overall, I simply see vengeance as more flexible for Ops and FP's, independant of what numbers are produced on a test dummy. but it doesn't detract from Rage's viability, especially if you PvP allot as well

[BigjoeHoe]

This is my thinking and my numbers

 

I roll with 38 Force Crit and 78 Surge, Reason for the crit is becouse i want those small dots to crit often, my Melee Crit is 33% witch im thinking of raiseing to 35 idk yet, but with those stats In Vengence tree i pull 1600dps With NO ragvage procs if i can get a few Ravage procs DPS shoots up too 1700-1750 with Rage tree i start out good becouse the paser is warming up but after a 6 minute fight im down to 1500 DPS. So i sergjest Vengence for PvE DPS

[TwistedTony]

Rage is a beast for pve. I'm putting up 1600-1650 with vengeance and 1700-1750 consiststantly with rage. It's garbage cuz not only as rage the prefered spec for pvp, it's the same for pve

[KVork]

Rage is a beast for pve. I'm putting up 1600-1650 with vengeance and 1700-1750 consiststantly with rage. It's garbage cuz not only as rage the prefered spec for pvp, it's the same for pve

 

This.

 

25-30% is from autocrit smash if you consider single-target dps only.

 

In practice Rage in PVE is more squishy than Vengeance but propably more usefull and effective dps-wise, definitely better in any encounter that includes multiple targets.

Crit 30% unbuffed is your target.

[TwistedTony]

This.

 

25-30% is from autocrit smash if you consider single-target dps only.

 

In practice Rage in PVE is more squishy than Vengeance but propably more usefull and effective dps-wise, definitely better in any encounter that includes multiple targets.

Crit 30% unbuffed is your target.

 

Yeah the depressing part is I think bioware intended rage to put up higher numbers than vengeance cuz vengeance has better survivability, making it good for hybrids. I'm still pissed tho cuz vengeance is by far my fav spec, yet I don't like using a gimped spec

[KVork]

Yeah the depressing part is I think bioware intended rage to put up higher numbers than vengeance cuz vengeance has better survivability, making it good for hybrids. I'm still pissed tho cuz vengeance is by far my fav spec, yet I don't like using a gimped spec

 

Obviously you didnt tank in full Immortal, that one is gimped... Vengeance is quite ok, similar single target dmg to Rage, nice dots, some extra defense and smoother rotation, I dont think it needs a buff, it is halfway between full tank and full killing machine (Unless we agree that Juggernaut damage in PVE is not competetive when compared to what other "melee" dps can pull, then it needs a buff. Juggs are far behind other melee - ok I dont know how is Operative dps this days - but As, PT and Mara bring more in terms of dps).

[Carousel_t]

Burst damage vs sustained damage with more survIvability. Thats rage vs veng. If we.re talking about rage, id say its very hard to control its burst which makes rotations that much harder. It is mobile but so is veng, if someone thinks otherwise they are doing it wrong. Speaking purely about damage, rage is aoe veng is single target, thats it. If someone says they can do better on a dummy with rage - good for them, i hope they take that dumy to ops with them

[TwistedTony]

Obviously you didnt tank in full Immortal, that one is gimped... Vengeance is quite ok, similar single target dmg to Rage, nice dots, some extra defense and smoother rotation, I dont think it needs a buff, it is halfway between full tank and full killing machine (Unless we agree that Juggernaut damage in PVE is not competetive when compared to what other "melee" dps can pull, then it needs a buff. Juggs are far behind other melee - ok I dont know how is Operative dps this days - but As, PT and Mara bring more in terms of dps).

 

my vengeance jug parses 1600-1650 on a dummy (and vengeance is terrible on a dummy) and my mara in equal gear parses 1800 at best. so 150 isn't THAT big a deal. And ive come within less than 5 percent on every fight against my guilds pt, and hes full 63's. im full 61's with a couple 63's. Thatd not far behind at all

[Elyx]

my vengeance jug parses 1600-1650 on a dummy (and vengeance is terrible on a dummy) and my mara in equal gear parses 1800 at best. so 150 isn't THAT big a deal. And ive come within less than 5 percent on every fight against my guilds pt, and hes full 63's. im full 61's with a couple 63's. Thatd not far behind at all

 

I agree. Were Not only not far behind other melee DPS, but we are also far ahead of many ranged DPS. I'm comfortable with the numbers overall.

 

Rage Vs. Vengeance to me is not really a key issue of which one does more damage. target dummies are situational at best, and AoE damage is misleading (but fun when you have trash to clear).

 

as long as both are withing earshot of each other, Then IMO it's "pick your own poison" I like the smooth approach to vengeance in most my Ops runs and solo work. Rage is a fun in-between, but after a week of it i go back to vengeance. it still doesn't feel as good as vengeance does for me. so my poison is the smooth flow and regular damage output of vengeance

[MantorokTwelve]

My biggest problem with vengeance is how immobile you are. Ravage roots you for 3 seconds, and your only gap closers are force charge and intercede (which can be hard to pull off). Most of the bosses in EC and TFB require quite a bit of mobility (Toth and Zorn, Kephess, Writhing Horror, Dread Guard, first phase operator, Kephess again, second phase of TFB), and it really sucks breaking a ravage channel because of mechanics. Only problem I have with rage in raids is the firebrand and stormcaller shield phase and kephess's trenchgutters in EC. I don't have much trouble at all on the tanks, and I think rage could be extremely useful once the warriors are kited/killed.

[KVork]

. I don't have much trouble at all on the tanks, and I think rage could be extremely useful once the warriors are kited/killed.

 

Still can be used on F&S shield phase, but with great care, not neccesary anyway.

 

In NiM EC you separate warriors from Gutters so Rage is a serious asset, ( never thought I will say that )

Edited December 19, 2012 by KVork

[Dire]

Aside from what many people say here - Rage is superior in raid. No one cal tell me otherwise unless they have been on NiM Tanks and can avoid a second DD (me and a marauder can). Thats a single target fight and we avoid every single 2nd DD.

 

Also have Warstriker title - rage all the way.

 

25% crit is all you need btw. Never give up a chance to stack power for crit.

[arkitip]

Aside from what many people say here - Rage is superior in raid. No one cal tell me otherwise unless they have been on NiM Tanks and can avoid a second DD (me and a marauder can). Thats a single target fight and we avoid every single 2nd DD.

 

Also have Warstriker title - rage all the way.

 

25% crit is all you need btw. Never give up a chance to stack power for crit.

 

The returns on 125-150 crit rating are so good that passing them up is silly, even for a spec with heavy reliance on auto crit abilities.