Tanking Stat Weights

[dipstik]

Is there an updated spreadsheet for 2.0 online? I'm trying to figure out the limit on f/t+e/k and r/m+e/k ratio for making the absorb proc better than def proc for powertechs so I can figure out the best relics for each individual fight, I got the boss data on KN post and added the percentages (not considering i/e dmg cause it won't mitigate anyways).

 

 

Titan looks promising for the absorb relic, maybe olok and oasis but I did no math to confirm. Usually I would put all bosses and relics data on my tanking spreadsheet but I don't have one for post 2.0 (made one when it hit the pts and then BW changed everything) so I could figure out the best for each boss for my toon's current stats since the best relic also depends on your current stats. If the absorb relic is better for those 3 bosses it would make 50/50 on the operation, except for last boss which I don't have data but I guess he does a lot of force dmg (and the dragon melee/kinectic probably).

 

 

On another subject do you guys think bioware will change the static def boost on the def proc relic to leave it like the others or do you think this is intended to give more value on def over absorb? idk why they always screw up on relics, its the same as the uptime on campaign/rakata relics over DG relics that would make average mitigation on some DG worse than the lower tier relics.

 

they do need to revisit the relics for other reasons (no tech internal/elemental proc dmg relic) but who knows if they will.

[Yngow]

they do need to revisit the relics for other reasons (no tech internal/elemental proc dmg relic) but who knows if they will.

 

wow didnt know that. I've been using internal proc before 2.0 because it was based on tech (even though there was no tooltip indicating that)

[MVaglin]

Edit: Nevermind, I was thinking completely wrong. Edited May 3, 2013 by MVaglin

[Hockaday]

if u look at the OP i give the dps where the underwolrd heal relic equals the other relics:

 

 

mit=634 heal dps

def proc 4519

abs proc 5625

shd use 5945

pvp 5913

use def 10902

 

conquerer heal relic is better than defense proc unless dps>3450

 

so for under 3450, 2 healing relics would be best,

for 3450+ to 5913 you want def proc and underwolrd healing.

for 5913+ def proc and elite war hero (or on use shield)

 

Ah I see, thank you. My apologies once again; I must have missed that, or simply misunderstood.

[Rumz]

Can anyone confirm if the DG absorb would proc with the UW/Ark Def proc?

 

I read somewhere that the DG and Ark/UW do not share a CD.

 

I unfortunately am unable to get the EWH, so looking for what combo of relics to use.

[dipstik]

I can check with my underworld proc power and dg proc damage.

[Yngow]

I'm not sure, but as far as I know right now all proc relics are kicking in at the same time unless they are the same relic, so proc def works with proc absorption, proc power pvp works with proc power pve and so on.

And as far as I know 2 tank proc relics or 2 dmg proc relics should not work at the same time, so I consider this situation to be a glitch unless a dev confirms that this is the intended use. Also, 2 different clicky relics also work but when you use one you get a "relic cooldown" on both that is lower than the individual cd on each relic.

 

So unless a dev confirms that this is intended I would not advise anyone to gear up with 2 tank procs because they can fix it at any moment, if you do at least have a backup relic ready.

I would also be prepared if they remove/nerf the EWH relics, bioware updated all pvp relics exactly to prevent people using pvp relics as BiS for pve.

[Darth_Dreselus]

I still can't figure out why your numbers are different to KBN. Obviously the formula is different but that may as well be written in hebrew =D. Is there any easy-ish answer as to why it is so?

 

I can see the values for defensible and shield-able attacks being different but not by an amount which would seemingly warrant such a discrepancy between suggested gearing.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[dipstik]

KBN uses an assumption for the value of shield (which i think is very novel) where shield is assumed to take up 39 to 65% (or some such) of the total stat budget. previously i had posted info for both 720 and 790 shield since those are the minimum values of shield if you are at the same time maximizing your stat budget, but i then decided to throw out the 720 because those numbers would only be good while you are between arkanian and underworld. for juggs and sins, the desired level of shield is below the minimum achievable using enhancements which increase the total stat budget. there is talk of using the purple 28s with lower shield with higher values of defense/absorb, which would decrease the overall stat budget by around 20, but will be closer to ideal. havent looked at those numbers yet.

 

i decided to create AMR profiles where i calculated the optimum distribution for the stats achievable with gear, and got as close as possible using those numbers. another difference is that KBN uses mathematica to find the optimum values, where i use excel solver (pre 1.7 i used maple, but it took around 15 mins to get the values for each gear level).

 

 

the only other difference in assumptions would be for vanguards where KBN assumes a static defense buff of 7% due to oil slick being used on cooldown, where i consider that to be more of an oh crap cooldown, so i dont include it.

[KeyboardNinja]

Just to confirm, dipstik's answer is quite thorough and I agree with all of his points. The broadest difference between our numbers comes from the fact that I allow shield to float in a range. I would argue that this is more accurate for precisely the reason dipstik listed: it makes the numbers useful across all stat budgets, not just "full arkanian" or "full underworld". If I were to fix shield to a particular value, I'm fairly certain I would see stat distributions within a reasonable margin of error from dipstik's results. We're both using the same damage distribution assumptions, as well as the same basic attack assumptions (which has a significant effect on the value of defense).

 

Building AMR profiles is absolutely the *most* accurate way to do things, but it's also the most time consuming and budget-specific. Dipstik is simply more dedicated to accuracy here than I am. :-)

 

The Oil Slick / Riot Gas thing is really a subjective question that depends on tanking style. Some powertechs/vanguards like to use the ability on CD for a high mean benefit, while others prefer to save it for burst moments. It's a surprisingly complex ability to take into consideration, because it's effectively a short-CD defensive cooldown that can not only be applied to your own mitigation but also "donated" to your co-tank. So…yeah. Tricky.

 

I would argue that, even saving Oil Slick / Riot Gas for burst moments, it is still going to have an effect on your ideal stat distribution, and that effect will be weighted by the magnitude of the burst. Thus, I don't think there is going to be an appreciable difference in terms of stat weights between "using it on CD" and "using it during burst moments", providing those burst moments happen with reasonable frequency. Since there is no appreciable difference, I approximate the value of *both* usage patterns by assuming the former rather than the latter, since the former is easier to calculate. Thus, a 7.5% static defense buff.

Edited May 6, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[dipstik]

Updated the AMR links for shadows and gaurdians. using the 66 crafted anhancements with +47 defense or absorb with 66 shield does provide more overall mitigation, even though the stat budget is less.

 

shadow:

 

previous was d=577, s=868, a=986 with mitigation of 0.31909 (pre heals)

new is d=634, s=777, a=100 with mitigation 0.31854

 

guardian:

 

previous was 1053,868,630 at 0.32204

new is 1137, 777, 623 at 0.32164

 

vanguards were already above the shield minimum and thus decreasing the over stat budget would not help them.

[Hockaday]

Really having a bad morning aren't I. lol. Looks good and can't wait to try it. I'll have to try and make a verpine verison. Edited May 6, 2013 by Hockaday

[Darth_Dreselus]

Thanks for the clarification. I will probably stick with 31s, while it may not be ideal it should still be close enough considering how undergeared tanks I have had in Ops and it was hardly an issue.

[dipstik]

i edited my update in the OP but didnt comment here. someone brought up that the endurance loss was huge for shadows, so i looked into it and the loss of self heals for shadows makes the mitigation not worth it. STAY WITH THE 31 ENHANCEMENTS!

 

you get 2 points of mitigation for 24 endurance or something, which is way beyond the 2.5 limit... so shadows./sins should stick with the 31's still. sorry

 

i know im going to get a bunch of flames from crafters... but you can sell then to juggs... or mail them to your guardian alt...

 

again im sorry

[Darth_Dreselus]

Why do you have the shield EWH in the VG AMR, when by your own weighted stats the On use Shield is better?

[dipstik]

shd use 0.281994229 0.267568957 0.278387911 -0.0036

pvp 0.281994229 0.277392254 0.277392254 -0.0046

 

the diff is greater for the pvp, so its better.

[Darth_Dreselus]

shd use 0.281994229 0.267568957 0.278387911 -0.0036

pvp 0.281994229 0.277392254 0.277392254 -0.0046

 

the diff is greater for the pvp, so its better.

 

Oh I missed you added that, i was sill goin by the 'lowest is best' as before.

 

Some explanations wouldn't go amiss. Just like saying that the highest difference is what you want.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[dipstik]

lol yeah, i added a column to make it easier... but i should have said something

[Hockaday]

I see your AMR for Sins/Shads have changed to a 777 Shield rating, but your build is the same. I believe I'm missing something, but how is that achieved? Since We're not using 66s anymore.

[dipstik]

sorry, needed to updte those amr stats in the OP. the amr profiles were updated on the 6th. Edited May 8, 2013 by dipstik

[mattiashag]

im a vanguard tank and cant get the EWH relic what relics should i go with then?

[Elzen]

Well, here's the rankings based on having Underworld Gear:

 

def proc 0.281093161 0.267712039 0.277602433 -0.0044

abs proc 0.281994229 0.268823737 0.278558448 -0.0034

shd use 0.281994229 0.267568957 0.278387911 -0.0036

pvp 0.281994229 0.277392254 0.277392254 -0.0046

use def 0.281994229 0.269959988 0.279988522 -0.0020

 

The lower that last column the better, so it looks like the lowest 2 numbers then are def proc and shield use.

[Marb]

Hi dipstik, I really like how you have taken the time to make up AMR profiles.

 

With your listed AMR profile for guardians, have you included the average contribution of the defense proc when choosing that stat spread? I'm putting together a list of things I need to match that profile, but I'm not sure if I need to drop defense down a bit from what you have in that AMR profile to account for the defense proc.

 

Thanks.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Marb

[dipstik]

i think as a rule, i will not include things with less than 50% uptime.

[eventidephoenix]

Hi Dipstik! Quick question: I am currently deciding to buy Campaign Armoring for 2 set bonus, since I've read that it's a lot better.

 

However Looking at the drop in Damage Reduction from armor rating, it worries me =\

 

Is it still better to use 61/61/72/72 armorings for 2x 5% shield buff set bonus? Or better to use 72/72/72/72 and just stick with one 5% shield buff?

 

TIA!