Tanking Stat Weights

[Hockaday]

So i believe I've missed the conversation considering the relics, but, are we to use the pvp and pve healing relics now? I believe it was mentioned that both relics work. But I'm not sure. Sorry to ask.

[THoK-Zeus]

@dipstick: One question about the best Relics for Shadow Tanks. You wrote that there must be atleast 7200 DPS going on the tank, so that the Proc Relics for Abs./Def. are more viable then the 634 healing Relic.

If i just count that backwards, that means that f.e. the Underworld proc +550 Absorb Relic migates just 1,46% of the incoming dmg (634 / (7200 times 6 seconds)) when it is active. I assumed they proc the same time (both are on a 20 s CD). That can't be correct (The migation value of 550 Absorption Rating must be sth around 6% or so for shadows). Did i overlook sth. ?

Edited April 27, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[dipstik]

So i believe I've missed the conversation considering the relics, but, are we to use the pvp and pve healing relics now? I believe it was mentioned that both relics work. But I'm not sure. Sorry to ask.

 

for a sin/shadow, yeah the healing relics. one pve one pvp.

[dipstik]

@dipstik: One question about the best Relics for Shadow Tanks. You wrote that there must be atleast 7200 DPS going on the tank, so that the Proc Relics for Abs./Def. are more viable then the 634 healing Relic.

If i just count that backwards, that means that f.e. the Underworld proc +550 Absorb Relic migates just 1,46% of the incoming dmg (634 / (7200 times 6 seconds)) when it is active. I assumed they proc the same time (both are on a 20 s CD). That can't be correct (The migation value of 550 Absorption Rating must be sth around 6% or so for shadows). Did i overlook sth. ?

 

what i did was take the weighted mitigation of the best relic ( i think it was the def proc one) and i subtracted the base form that to give me the improvement of mitigation due to thye best relic. so the number is: weighted-base=difference

 

to find out how much damage is mitigated by the relic at a certtain dps level we just take: difference*dps=mitigated_damage

 

now i need to compare the healing relic to the mitigated damage so i set

 

difference*dps=heals_from_relic

 

and i solve for dps.

Edited April 27, 2013 by dipstik

[Grumpftard]

for a sin/shadow, yeah the healing relics. one pve one pvp.

 

I have a question about this.

In screwing around with relics last night...with the Arkanian and DG relics both equiped (haven't had crap for roles on UW relics)....both healing relics were proc'ing. There was even a couple instances where one relic proc'd the other.

Can anyone confirm the same with the UW? Need to know if the UW and Ark will proc together. UW and DG?

So right now I have Ark / DG... that's 580 /505. Iirc the PvP is only 465-ish?

Is the healing proc from the smaller relics significant enough to beat the UW mitigation relics?

If yes, then I'm interested to know which combination of healing relics work best.

[THoK-Zeus]

Yes, but your maths seems to be incorrect. If i use your formula for defense rating, i get an increase in defense Rating from 5,43% from an active Proc Relic. But when i count your formula backwards it says that the Underworld Proc Defense Relic, just gives an increase of 1,46% to migation when active. Is Defense Rating really just working on 26,8% of all attacks?

 

Edit: It seems that you counted the 6s /23s Time of the Proc Relic a second time when you did the maths. The percentage of the time the proc Relic is active is about the same percentage (26,1 %).

Edited April 27, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[Mallorik]

My first question , who is right kbn or dipstik? are the two different stat set ups for different situations? I play a guardian and at 2200 rating there are pretty significant differences in the numbers especially in absorb.

 

The second is probably something stupid on my part that im not seeing but in the OP why are their two tables for each class with the same stat pools but different stat distribution?

 

And thanks for the wrok guys, keep it up. Ive been a min max freak since EQ1 back when min maxing meant just getting all your stats to 255.

[Grumpftard]

My first question , who is right kbn or dipstik? are the two different stat set ups for different situations? I play a guardian and at 2200 rating there are pretty significant differences in the numbers especially in absorb.

 

The second is probably something stupid on my part that im not seeing but in the OP why are their two tables for each class with the same stat pools but different stat distribution?

 

And thanks for the wrok guys, keep it up. Ive been a min max freak since EQ1 back when min maxing meant just getting all your stats to 255.

 

Lol...actually they are both right....kinda.

The disparity comes in (from my understanding) with the assumptions behind the math when it comes to "How much incoming damage is of what type"

One set of number is assuming that incoming damage is more of one type than the other set of numbers. Other than that (as far as my limited math ability knows) their methodology is the same. My assumption is that as time goes on and we get more and more data on the actual damage distribution %'s, that KBN and Dipstik's charts will get closer and closer to being roughly the same values.

 

The two different charts for each class comes from running the numbers with 720 shield and again 790 shield.

 

This is all assuming that I am actually understanding everything correctly....rofl!

Edited April 27, 2013 by Grumpftard

[Mallorik]

See I knew I missed something, I didn't notice that the shield was all 720 in one and 790 in the other.

[dipstik]

Yes, but your maths seems to be incorrect. If i use your formula for defense rating, i get an increase in defense Rating from 5,43% from an active Proc Relic. But when i count your formula backwards it says that the Underworld Proc Defense Relic, just gives an increase of 1,46% to migation when active. Is Defense Rating really just working on 26,8% of all attacks?

 

Edit: It seems that you counted the 6s /23s Time of the Proc Relic a second time when you did the maths. The percentage of the time the proc Relic is active is about the same percentage (26,1 %).

 

I'll double check. It should be

(6/13)relic+(17/23)base

 

The amount of mitigation from defense depends on armor rating and amount of internal/elemental. defense should be working for 0.7*0.8=0.56 of the dps, where 28% of it you get a free 10% boost to defense, and the other part you dont.

Edited April 28, 2013 by dipstik

[dipstik]

updated OP. i didnt see any double counting of the proc time or anything. I did neglect to add the 32 static defense to the defense relic, so that makes it BiS for vanguards now, when before absorb won. which is noce sine you dont have to worry about your on use shield absorb hitting hard DR form absorb 550 procs.

[dipstik]

Lol...actually they are both right....kinda.

The disparity comes in (from my understanding) with the assumptions behind the math when it comes to "How much incoming damage is of what type"

One set of number is assuming that incoming damage is more of one type than the other set of numbers. Other than that (as far as my limited math ability knows) their methodology is the same. My assumption is that as time goes on and we get more and more data on the actual damage distribution %'s, that KBN and Dipstik's charts will get closer and closer to being roughly the same values.

 

The two different charts for each class comes from running the numbers with 720 shield and again 790 shield.

 

This is all assuming that I am actually understanding everything correctly....rofl!

 

before any numbers were run to see how much damage was 90% versus 100% accuracy, i assumed a 50/50 split for gearing, because that seemed to be the most conservative guess. now when using combat logs to get dps etc, I think my 20% force/tech kinetic/energy is more conservative because it makes room for a string of such attacks. if the uncertainty is plus minus 10%, and we are saying it is 10%, then i would rather gear for 20/80 than 0/100.

[Grumpftard]

Dipstik,

Did you see my post on previous page about DG relic?

[dipstik]

im not sure about arkanian and underworld, or underworld and DG.

 

i know my UW works with the PVP

[ScytheEleven]

Are the percentage numbers on askmrrobot correct? I'm done playing for the night, and I'm pretty sure on my PT tank I have close to 1000 shield rating, which gives me around 41% shield chance. On askmrrobot, it says my chance at 964 would be 55%...

[dipstik]

i was wondering about that myself. best way to check is to match your gear and compare. think they were asking people to update the forulas in their forums. Edited April 28, 2013 by dipstik

[eventidephoenix]

They don't drop anywhere. There is no such thing as 72 crafting. PT and juggs want high mitigation mods while sin tanks want high endurance b mods. It is insanely easy to gear up a sin tank as it is.

 

totally agree with you =\

[Prettyxinf]

relics for shadows:

 

healing does 634/23 s... need 7200 dps+ to make any relic better than healing relic

 

weighted relic base

def proc 0.436610018 0.425744183 0.440445019

abs proc 0.436841222 0.426630466 0.440445019

shd use 0.437086044 0.427009121 0.440445019

pvp 0.437047992 0.440445019

use def 0.43858544 0.429287549 0.440445019

 

heal relic and proc defense

 

So I have been looking to find a relic upgrade and based on the math above, I see the value in the healing proc relic as a shadow tank. I currently have the Arkanian Relic of Fortunate Redoubt as one of my relics. I am curious to the wording on the healing relic though, I have tended to shy away from playing with the healing relic due to the wording on the tool tip expressing that you must heal an ally to proc the heal effect. Did I take that a bit to literally? Everything I am reading here indicates, as a shadow tank, it will proc from our self healing abilities (Stance heals and 3 stack throw)? Is that correct?

[Viyll]

Yes and also atm if it's intended or not The Dread Guard and The Arkanian heal relics seem to proc together occasionally..here's just a quick parse I ran tonight against my ship dummy to show they can proc at the same time.

http://www.torparse.com/a/196985/1/0/Heals+Taken

snipet -

23:58:33.332 Tamie gains Healing Resonance.

23:58:33.332 Tamie gains Healing Resonance.

23:58:33.334 Tamie's Healing Resonance heals Tamie for 149.

23:58:33.335 Tamie's Healing Resonance heals Tamie for 130.

23:58:33.335 Tamie's Force Lightning heals Tamie for 748.

23:58:33.335 Tamie's Dark Charge heals Tamie for 368.

23:58:33.336 Tamie's Dark Charge hits Operations Training Dummy for 215 internal damage, causing 430 threat.

23:58:33.336 Tamie's Force Lightning hits Operations Training Dummy for 1005 energy damage, causing 2010 threat.

23:58:34.324 Tamie's Force Lightning heals Tamie for 748.

23:58:34.324 Tamie's Force Lightning hits Operations Training Dummy for 1005 energy damage, causing 2010 threat.

23:58:34.326 Tamie's Healing Resonance heals Tamie for 130.

23:58:34.327 Tamie's Healing Resonance heals Tamie for 149.

23:58:35.329 Tamie's Force Lightning heals Tamie for 748.

23:58:35.330 Tamie's Force Lightning critically hits Operations Training Dummy for 1517* energy damage, causing 3035 threat!

23:58:35.331 Tamie loses Harnessed Darkness.

23:58:35.332 Tamie loses Unshakable.

23:58:35.333 Tamie's Healing Resonance heals Tamie for 130.

23:58:35.334 Tamie's Healing Resonance heals Tamie for 149.

23:58:35.439 Tamie loses Conspirator's Cloak.

23:58:35.740 Tamie activates Thrash.

23:58:35.740 Tamie spends 23 Force.

23:58:35.740 Tamie gains Conspirator's Cloak.

23:58:35.964 Tamie's Thrash critically hits Operations Training Dummy for 922* energy damage, causing 1845 threat!

23:58:36.335 Tamie's Thrash hits Operations Training Dummy for 615 energy damage, causing 1231 threat.

23:58:36.336 Tamie's Healing Resonance heals Tamie for 130.

23:58:36.337 Tamie loses Healing Resonance.

23:58:36.338 Tamie's Healing Resonance heals Tamie for 149.

23:58:36.338 Tamie loses Healing Resonance.

 

It was something I was messing with when I got the new one and it peaked my interest.

[THoK-Zeus]

I'll double check. It should be

(6/13)relic+(17/23)base

 

The amount of mitigation from defense depends on armor rating and amount of internal/elemental. defense should be working for 0.7*0.8=0.56 of the dps, where 28% of it you get a free 10% boost to defense, and the other part you dont.

 

When i take your formula for Defense Rating, i get (for 2100 defensive stats Shadow from your formula):

 

Defense Rating without Relic: =0,1 + 0,05 +0,06 + 0,3*(1-(1-(0,01/0,3))^((492/55)/1,2))=0,2769946

Defense Rating with Relic Proc: =0,1 + 0,05 +0,06 + 0,3*(1-(1-(0,01/0,3))^((1074/55)/1,2))=0,33720399

Therefore the additional Defense Rating is 0,060209, that times the 0,56 of the working dps, then times the 6/23 of the time it works, then times 0,61 of the damage it blocks, when we count a 39% armor rating gives us 0,00536545.

 

Therefore when we take: total damage * migation= migated damage, 5137 dps on the tank are needed to be better as the Underworld Healing Relic, aswell as 3922 damage for the PVP Relic.

 

But there are some other problems aswell: Atleast for SV, the Combat Logs tell me that about 90% of the boss damage is Energy/Kinetic. Therefore the damage would be 3196 for Underworld and 2440 for the PVP Relic.

 

When i do the maths for the Absorb Proc Relic with your forumla i get even better results: 8,4% additional Absorb Rating when it Procs times 0,7 (0,9), of the damage type, times 0,555 for the Shield, times 6/23 for the percentage of time it procs nets 0,00853178 (0,010969).

Therefore just 3230 (2512 with 90% energy/kinetic damage)for the Underworld and 2466 (1918) dps for the PVP Healing Relic would be needed).

[dipstik]

i am using 2200 underworld stats. and you should not try to apply the defense to the "working" dps. just use the equation for overall mitigation with the proper armor rating and internal resistance.

 

it also looks like you are not applying the +32 static defense to the base amount for the defense relic.

 

and are you applying the base (17/23) term?

 

damage taken per second (pre heals/absorb):

DTPS=DPS*(0.56*(1-dr)*(0.5*(1-d-0.1)*(1-s*a)+0.56*(1-d)*(1-s*a))+0.14*(1-dr)*(1-r)*(1-s*a)+0.3*(1-r)*(1-ir))

 

where 0.1 from 90% accuracy attacks

dps is incoming dps

dr is damage reduction form armor, to kinetic and energy damage

d is defense fraction

s is shield fraction

a is absorb fraction

ir is internal resistance

r is resiatance

 

total mitigation is just DTPS/DPS

Edited April 28, 2013 by dipstik

[dipstik]

I have a question about this.

In screwing around with relics last night...with the Arkanian and DG relics both equiped (haven't had crap for roles on UW relics)....both healing relics were proc'ing. There was even a couple instances where one relic proc'd the other.

Can anyone confirm the same with the UW? Need to know if the UW and Ark will proc together. UW and DG?

So right now I have Ark / DG... that's 580 /505. Iirc the PvP is only 465-ish?

Is the healing proc from the smaller relics significant enough to beat the UW mitigation relics?

If yes, then I'm interested to know which combination of healing relics work best.

 

dps is estimated around 4500 to 6500 right now it looks like.

 

if you find the ratio of one heal relic to another you can just take 7200 ratio to get what the dps has to be to make defense relic better.

 

505/634=0.7965299684542587

7200*0.7965299684542587=5735.015772870662

Edited April 29, 2013 by dipstik

[dipstik]

updated OP for new damage numbers. unless you are fighting a boss that does less than 4500 dps, all tanks want the proc defense and elite war hero relic. Edited April 29, 2013 by dipstik

[Maelicbod]

Nm, this was answered. Edited April 29, 2013 by Maelicbod
Answered

[Hockaday]

updated OP for new damage numbers. unless you are fighting a boss that does less than 4500 dps, all tanks want the proc defense and elite war hero relic.

 

I assume you don't mean Sins as well, since that seems to still say two ehaling relics.