Time to nerf the sniper/gunslinger

[NoTomorrow]

^this. please. it's complete bogus that troopers (VGs/PTs) have NO CLOSER whatsoever against an entire ranged AC. if you cryo and the harpooned a sniper prior to 1.5, you could close the gap but you filled the sniper's resolve. that's a fair trade for both sides. he still has his plethora of punts/stuns/mezzes and dcds. it's not like this makes them defensless. but it's pretty bogus that a sniper can just sit on a platform and wreck you w/o any chance of closing the gap. every other melee has a method to close the gap on a sniper under cover. I'm not saying make them easy kills. but no closer whatsoever? yeah. I'm repeating myself and all but...that's bogus.

 

welcome to different classes gameplay. If we balanced the game by your principles, the snipers whould have had a stealth scan already by now. As for the stun and pull combo, that was only a thing against the badies working. Any decent sniper when aggroed guys like you the first thing the would do - entrench.

Edited December 6, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[NoFishing]

First, I agree that ranged classes should have their stuns restored to 30m. But snipers/slingers are just fine...they are the natural enemy of all of the leaping smash monkeys currently dominating PvP, and IMO are just about perfectly balanced against them.

[NoTomorrow]

Snipers have more CC than any class in the game. That'd be your melee defense. Knockback +root is a lethal counter to melee. They're hardly defenseless. If they could put a static warzone into the game, the sniper would rule that warzone.

 

Go back to the hole you crawled out from:

 

Sniper (full MM)

Knockback + Root (cover pulse)

Root (legshot)

Knockback (ambush)

4s Melee stun

8s Aoe Mezz

 

Assassin Tank:

AoE knockback

4s 10m stun

8s mezz

out of combat, stealth mezz

spinning kick, knockdown 2s (basically a 2s stun)

Force Pull

Force slow

[NogueiraA]

Snipers really deserve a nerf.

 

All the classes you can gap close but snipers.

"LoS, L2P, use stealth, bla bla bla", NO... Why? When you finally reach a sniper, he has so many tools to kite you again, remeber, in this point he did a lot of damage on you.

Sniper vision:

- he reached me, lemme stun him for 4 sec ambushin for 5.5k and Snipe for 3k.

- My 4sec stun finished? Ok, lemme cover pulse him and I have 2 seconds to damage him without break the root, Snipe for 3k with no root breaks.

- The root finished? Ok, lemme insta root him again using Leg Shot and I have 2 seconds to do damage WITHOUT breaks the root, 3k Snipe or if I'm in Marksmanship, Ambush with 1.4 secs cast for 5k damage..

- instant root finished? He can reach me again... Ok, lemme flash bang him and I have 8 seconds to run away 35m.

- Nice, I'm 35m distance from him, lemme do some 15k damage until he can reach 10m from me...

- Yay, instant root again using Leg Shot and I have 2 seconds to damage without breaks the root!

- He finally reached me and what I have now?? I'm dead because he'll cc me until my death, oh wait, I have ENTRENCH !! He can't touch me, he can't cc me, pull or whatever... 20 seconds untouchabble.

- I'm taking so much damage, what I have now?? Ok, a probe which absorbs damage!!

- My probe finished? I'm ****ed... Oh wait, I have EVASION dodging 100% the melee and ranged atacks!!!

- Now lemme cover pulse him again, 4 sec stun and flash bang him + instant root because my Cooldowns are too short.

- An assassin or Operative come from stealth on me? Lemme dot him, when he use vanish my dot will work great!

 

This is what happens with juggs, mara's and powertech's. Either stealth classes.

 

The funny part is, people think snipers are fine, but not.

People complain about mara/sent defensive cooldowns, pffftt...

The other only classes who has a CC immunity is Juggs in vengeance, lasts 4 secs after Force Charge and Assassins with force shroud, if specced in tank tree lasts 5 secs. Sniper Entrench lasts 20 secs with 45secs CD.

OMG, how this is fine???? Really.

[miszcz]

Snipers really deserve a nerf.

 

All the classes you can gap close but snipers.

"LoS, L2P, use stealth, bla bla bla", NO... Why? When you finally reach a sniper, he has so many tools to kite you again, remeber, in this point he did a lot of damage on you.

Sniper vision:

- he reached me, lemme stun him for 4 sec ambushin for 5.5k and Snipe for 3k.

- My 4sec stun finished? Ok, lemme cover pulse him and I have 2 seconds to damage him without break the root, Snipe for 3k with no root breaks.

- The root finished? Ok, lemme insta root him again using Leg Shot and I have 2 seconds to do damage WITHOUT breaks the root, 3k Snipe or if I'm in Marksmanship, Ambush with 1.4 secs cast for 5k damage..

- instant root finished? He can reach me again... Ok, lemme flash bang him and I have 8 seconds to run away 35m.

- Nice, I'm 35m distance from him, lemme do some 15k damage until he can reach 10m from me...

- Yay, instant root again using Leg Shot and I have 2 seconds to damage without breaks the root!

- He finally reached me and what I have now?? I'm dead because he'll cc me until my death, oh wait, I have ENTRENCH !! He can't touch me, he can't cc me, pull or whatever... 20 seconds untouchabble.

- I'm taking so much damage, what I have now?? Ok, a probe which absorbs damage!!

- My probe finished? I'm ****ed... Oh wait, I have EVASION dodging 100% the melee and ranged atacks!!!

- Now lemme cover pulse him again, 4 sec stun and flash bang him + instant root because my Cooldowns are too short.

- An assassin or Operative come from stealth on me? Lemme dot him, when he use vanish my dot will work great!

 

This is what happens with juggs, mara's and powertech's. Either stealth classes.

 

The funny part is, people think snipers are fine, but not.

People complain about mara/sent defensive cooldowns, pffftt...

The other only classes who has a CC immunity is Juggs in vengeance, lasts 4 secs after Force Charge and Assassins with force shroud, if specced in tank tree lasts 5 secs. Sniper Entrench lasts 20 secs with 45secs CD.

OMG, how this is fine???? Really.

 

this is perfect situation when you fight against trainig dummy or "retard" that dont use their cc's

shiled probe absorbs lougheable ammount of dmg

evasion dont work agains tech and force attacks

stealths can clense dot before they vanish

snipers are fine!

[NogueiraA]

this is perfect situation when you fight against trainig dummy or "retard" that dont use their cc's

shiled probe absorbs lougheable ammount of dmg

evasion dont work agains tech and force attacks

stealths can clense dot before they vanish

snipers are fine!

 

A jugg can be the trainig dummy... No gap close, only one Zealous Leap/Obiliterate. Can't force push or force choke because of Entrench.

Mara have short stealth and predation to reach sniper.

Sins can cleans using shroud, operatives have a instant cleanse. If the sniper are using lethality, bye bye vanish because the dots will reaply.

 

Stop defending your class with no arguments.

[ZipZep]

Really, stop dueling snipers on your jug...

 

If a lethality specced sniper beats an assassin or operative in duel, im gonna say the 2 later classes failed horribly.

 

If you are in wz, accept that if playing focus/rage snipers at range will kill you. Just as you will destroy them should you get close. Snipers wont always have cover pulse, but you always have auto crit smash

 

If you are tank, you have tools to prevent enough dmg to allow team mates to help you in time. Not your job to kill the sniper anyway.

 

Snipers are absolute beasts in duels, but in wz, this really is mostly a matter of people lacking the knowledge of how to LoS. Also, melee needs to stop tanking engineer snipers when these pop Entrench, Plasma probe and Orbital on themself....

 

Naturally i play sniper, but its gonna be alot less rewarding if marauders and jugg's can suddenly leap to me in wz aswell. So leave snipers alone, they are just fine.

[NoTomorrow]

NobueiraA i searched through your posts, you are a Marauder and also an Assassin. You are asking for some good amount of criticism for a lot of your arguments, especially if you are playing marauder and assassin.

 

Snipers really deserve a nerf.

 

All the classes you can gap close but snipers.

"LoS, L2P, use stealth, bla bla bla", NO... Why? When you finally reach a sniper, he has so many tools to kite you again, remeber, in this point he did a lot of damage on you.

As an assassin you simply have no right to complain here at all. You've got stealth, and you've got the initiative, you can attack at the most opportunistic moment when the sniper is caught with his pants down. Of course if you open on him when he has entrench on, you can only blame yourself. It's your fault. You've got that 2s knockdown skill available, which tanksins can even use out of invisiblity, you are really in a good position to get a maul after the sniper falls on his face and looses the ballistic dampers confered by cover.

 

As a marauder, you've got force camo, which allows you to position yourself in a way that will give you an advantage. Smart marauders can open from a position so that knockback will only push them into the nearest wall instead of kilometers away. Besides, no stupid sniper is going to waste his cover pulse immediately on the opener.

 

As a sniper i developed a habbit never to rush my cover pulse, i really wait to see what will the class open with. However, many maras fail at this mind game, and they kinda expect to be knocked back immediately and start hesitating like hell to use their abilities.

 

No sniper is going to even risk using cover pulse against a jug if he opened with a leap. The tier 3 vengeance skill seems to be taken by almost any jug player in SWTOR. I am talking about 4sec CC immunity after leaps.

 

Sniper vision:

- he reached me, lemme stun him for 4 sec ambushin for 5.5k and Snipe for 3k.

MM sniper will not ambush you without his reactive shots proc. Wasting 2,5 sec on an ambush that can miss is plain stupid. As for 5.5k ambush, why are engaging him without your cloak of pain? No crit ambush will hit you for that damage with CoP. And why are you not using any of the ranged defense skills? Where is deflection? Where is saberward? Where is your obfuscate??? 90% miss chance for ranged attacks for 6 seconds!! May be you are one of those marauder badies that don't even have obfuscate on their ability bars..

 

If you keep saving these cooldowns for when you have 2000 hp left, I will not use ranged attack on you, i will simply knife you with an yellow damage shiv ignoring all your range defense.

 

And only badies will be stunning you randomly. I am not going to fill most of your resolve just so that you can later use your hard hitting attacks like ravage without me being able to stop you.

 

- My 4sec stun finished? Ok, lemme cover pulse him and I have 2 seconds to damage him without break the root, Snipe for 3k with no root breaks.

For my reply to cover pulses, look up. Only a stupid sniper will be knifing you than cover pulse you immediately. I never did this BS, but if anyone did, i suspect that he might as well filled your resolve bar this time. IF you cannot take advantage of this, you are bad.

 

The 2 second guaranteed root. By this time MM sniper will not have his snapshot snipe proc. So if he cover pulses you, you are knocked back, GCD 1,5 sec, snipe activate 1,5 sec. it's 3 sec since cover pulse. If he snipes you now, the root is lost. As for other specs it's still no problem because you either have interrogation probe dotting you or lethality dots. Only MM has has Followthrough as an instant attack, and that is only after a snipe, by this time my FT will be in CD. Any other specs cannot instahit you before the cover pulse 2sec guaranteed root ends. I could throw a grenade, by i dont want to break the CC of my team mates, and wasting 20 energy for a grenade is stupid if you are not engineering.

 

- The root finished? Ok, lemme insta root him again using Leg Shot and I have 2 seconds to do damage WITHOUT breaks the root, 3k Snipe or if I'm in Marksmanship, Ambush with 1.4 secs cast for 5k damage..

Again fail on your judgement. If you are an assasin, you have access to a big chunk of defense from your talents, if you are tank, you are even better of at completely dodging the legshot!!! And since a big number of assassins are hybrids in darkness, you also have root cleansing with force speed. Get it through your skull please: legshot is a ranged attack with physical debuff. Can be cleansed by those that have physical debuff cleansing, (talented healer sorcs) and operative. Tanks have the least worries about legshot.

 

If you are a marauder, it works as intended. Your class is vulnerable to roots. And even in this case you still have saberward, if the fail sniper followed your upper suggestion, your marauder's resolve would have had his resolve filled by now.

 

- instant root finished? He can reach me again... Ok, lemme flash bang him and I have 8 seconds to run away 35m.

 

may I redirect you to a thread where the resolve mechanics is explained? You seem to think that your class has 2000 resolve limit instead of 1000. It's not that your assassin and marauder dont have an powerful mezz either. You got the mezz, we got mezz.

 

- Nice, I'm 35m distance from him, lemme do some 15k damage until he can reach 10m from me...

 

Even if your hilarious scenario has by some miracle happened, what the hell are you doing as an assassin moving in his line of sight anyway? Show me a marauder that will move straightly into the sniper after your ridiculous scenario happens. Where have your LoSing skills gone?

 

- Yay, instant root again using Leg Shot and I have 2 seconds to damage without breaks the root!

I think you are one of those dudes that think that roots should be added to resolve. Jesus christ melee players, may i ask you to read my signature?

 

- He finally reached me and what I have now?? I'm dead because he'll cc me until my death, oh wait, I have ENTRENCH !! He can't touch me, he can't cc me, pull or whatever... 20 seconds untouchabble.

 

Entrench is a big damn shield that even a blind dude can see from kilometers away. Congratulations you fought sniper on his own terms. You lost. The equivalent of this would be me doing normal rotation when you are Gore+Ravaging me. Stupid isn't it? You dont expect someone to do nothing when you are ravaging them. Now why are behaving just like this when the sniper is entrenched?

 

- I'm taking so much damage, what I have now?? Ok, a probe which absorbs damage!!

The shield probe functions just like a sorc bubble, it's an hp buffer. A marauder or an assassin whining about a shield probe.. jeez, you probably have worse defense CDs than me..

 

- My probe finished? I'm ****ed... Oh wait, I have EVASION dodging 100% the melee and ranged atacks!!!

 

And why are you using your melee/ranged attacks when he has evasion? Why are you not force screaming? Why are you not shocking him?

 

- Now lemme cover pulse him again, 4 sec stun and flash bang him + instant root because my Cooldowns are too short.

Sorry dude, with your stupid tactics to engage a sniper, there would be no need for the next cover pulse (which has a 30sec CD, you would be dead by now anyway.

 

- An assassin or Operative come from stealth on me? Lemme dot him, when he use vanish my dot will work great!

So you have a valor 60 assassin? really???? What the hell is force shroud for? operative doesn't have trouble either: Cleanse dots (as those are tech). Lethality lingering dots? no problem again, Cleanse, thene evasion, all dots gone.

 

This is what happens with juggs, mara's and powertech's. Either stealth classes.

Now, this is what happens with terrible players that shouldn't be playing PvP in the first place. May i suggest considering PvE?

 

The funny part is, people think snipers are fine, but not.

People complain about mara/sent defensive cooldowns, pffftt...

The other only classes who has a CC immunity is Juggs in vengeance, lasts 4 secs after Force Charge and Assassins with force shroud, if specced in tank tree lasts 5 secs. Sniper Entrench lasts 20 secs with 45secs CD.

OMG, how this is fine???? Really.

 

So you've got a problem with self-rooting turrent class, their entrench can be seen from miles away. A vengeance jug talented leap with CC immunity is much more subtle to notice. How many people failed to see that?

And wait wait! The jug can leap every 15 sec, during one minute: you can leap at 0s, 15s, 30s, 45s, 60s: 5 leaps =5x4s = 20 secs of total CC immunity .

 

There you go

 

You every argument shattered into pieces. You know, i can roll a marauder, or assassin, and faceroll your sniper any time of the day. This is just how terrible you are.

Edited December 6, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[NogueiraA]

Really, stop dueling snipers on your jug...

 

If a lethality specced sniper beats an assassin or operative in duel, im gonna say the 2 later classes failed horribly.

 

If you are in wz, accept that if playing focus/rage snipers at range will kill you. Just as you will destroy them should you get close. Snipers wont always have cover pulse, but you always have auto crit smash

 

If you are tank, you have tools to prevent enough dmg to allow team mates to help you in time. Not your job to kill the sniper anyway.

 

Snipers are absolute beasts in duels, but in wz, this really is mostly a matter of people lacking the knowledge of how to LoS. Also, melee needs to stop tanking engineer snipers when these pop Entrench, Plasma probe and Orbital on themself....

 

Naturally i play sniper, but its gonna be alot less rewarding if marauders and jugg's can suddenly leap to me in wz aswell. So leave snipers alone, they are just fine.

 

All you're saying is: Snipers are fine, do not fight them and you'll be fine!

 

@NoTomorrow I'm typing your reply

Edited December 6, 2012 by NogueiraA

[miszcz]

A jugg can be the trainig dummy... No gap close, only one Zealous Leap/Obiliterate. Can't force push or force choke because of Entrench.

Mara have short stealth and predation to reach sniper.

Sins can cleans using shroud, operatives have a instant cleanse. If the sniper are using lethality, bye bye vanish because the dots will reaply.

 

Stop defending your class with no arguments.

 

snipers are hard counter to heavy melee class - how are we suposed to kill them when we gonna get nerfed?

sure nerf us , nerf operatives again and nerf everytning that actually dont need nerf...

[NoTomorrow]

snipers are hard counter to heavy melee class - how are we suposed to kill them when we gonna get nerfed?

sure nerf us , nerf operatives again and nerf everytning that actually dont need nerf...

 

I said if before and i will say it again, when you will get leaps on snipers, snipers will get stealth scan.

PS: Read my signature.

 

NogueiraA, I really want to see what new interesting stories you are going to come up with against snipers being OP

Edited December 6, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[NogueiraA]

I said if before and i will say it again, when you will get leaps on snipers, snipers will get stealth scan.

PS: Read my signature.

 

NogueiraA, I really want to see what new interesting stories you are going to come up with against snipers being OP

 

The guy in your signature...

Quote: Originally Posted by Fdzzaigl

So you can't deal with something unless you can charge right in its face, sums up what most of the irritating hordes of Marauders and Juggs are about in Warzones..

 

You agree with this guy complaining about the amount of warriors in a WZ?

People love lightsaber, people look at this game "Damn, I want 2 lightsabers, so cool". This guy complaining about people focusing being a warrior makes no-sense.

Another example.. "Powertech? Nahh, I want two blaster pistols". "Vanguard? Nahh, I want that big ****** canon"..

[miszcz]

I said if before and i will say it again, when you will get leaps on snipers, snipers will get stealth scan.

PS: Read my signature.

 

why are you rageing at me? i dont want snipers to be nerfed...

[Siorac]

Even a Guardian can kill a Sniper. Well, Vigilance can. LoS until his Entrench is over, Force Push, Leap, kill. 99% of them will blow at least one stun or knockback on Unremitting. Roughly 70% will blow two. And once you're in melee range, they're dead. Just don't forget to use Sweep, Blade Storm and Plasma Brand when they put up Evasion.

 

My point is that a not really overpowered non-stealth, white damage reliant melee spec have the tools to deal with a Sniper. It's a bit more difficult if they save those CCs but during the CC immunity you can position yourself so the knockback won't take you out of 10 meter range - Stasis until the root ends.

 

This ain't a foolproof method, I know, but they're supposed to be our hard counter and yet we have the tools to put up a good fight. Nothing wrong with them.

[NoTomorrow]

Siorac

 

a question to jugs: are there any popular jug builds that don't take unremitting? I feel like its a no brainer to take this talent. Is there any visual indication for unremitting except for the buffs bar? I am just assuming that they have it.

Edited December 6, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Siorac]

Siorac

 

a question to jugs: are there any popular jug builds that don't take unremitting? I feel like its a no brainer to take this talent.

 

Ummm, ever met a Rage Jugg/Focus Guardian? There are like three-four of them in every Warzone They don't have access to Unstoppable/Unremitting, unless they give up their 31-point talent. Smashysmashy isn't quite deadly enough without that though.

[NoTomorrow]

Ummm, ever met a Rage Jugg/Focus Guardian? There are like three-four of them in every Warzone They don't have access to Unstoppable/Unremitting, unless they give up their 31-point talent. Smashysmashy isn't quite deadly enough without that though.

 

so for them force crush is still more valuable than CC immunity?

[ZipZep]

All you're saying is: Snipers are fine, do not fight them and you'll be fine!

 

@NoTomorrow I'm typing your reply

 

What im saying is learn the abilies that snipers use and stop trying to melee em when entrench is up.

As i guy stated above, im not gonna let you gore --> Ravage me either so why would you not at least try use your cd's to counter my abilities?

 

Snipers are a bursty class, but in dps still trailing pyro's and naturally rage marauders and juggs. They have more cc's which doesnt show in the end stats of each wz, and this is really the greatest strength of the class. Control. And a good sniper will abuse it to extremes agianst players like you who dont even try to invent counters to them.

[Siorac]

so for them force crush is still more valuable than CC immunity?

 

Well yeah. I don't quite see the point of that build if you can only do a real huge Smash every 25-30 seconds as opposed to 10.

[NoTomorrow]

The thing is, out my hundreds of hundreds of WZ, i don't really remember seeing all 3 sorc madness dots on me (crushing darkness, affliction, creeping terror), while i am playing my madness sorc i am doing this left and right effortlessly killing most of the snipers.

 

People are just blind to their options, and instead they come and whine here on the forums.

Edited December 6, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Siorac]

The thing is, out my hundreds of hundreds of WZ, i don't really remember seeing all 3 sorc madness dots on me (crushing darkness, affliction, creeping terror), while i am playing my madness sorc i am doing this left and right effortlessly killing most of the snipers.

 

People are just blind to their options, and instead they come and whine here on the forums.

 

That's probably because very few Sorcs run a full Madness build and instead choose the hybrid for the bubblestun and the rooting Overload.

[NoTomorrow]

That's probably because very few Sorcs run a full Madness build and instead choose the hybrid for the bubblestun and the rooting Overload.

 

because having a rooting DoT every 9 seconds doing internal damage is not good enough for them.. Do they plan to use the deathmark debuff on affliction or what?

[ZipZep]

Madness sorcs would in fact be one of the best classes to counter snipers.

 

People I dont like dueling/getting 1 v 1 in wz on my sniper:

 

1: madness sorcs (DoT --> Kite ---> self heal as needed)

2: Healing Sorcs (DoT --> Kite ---> Self heal as needed and keep going for 10 min) Ok, this is hard in a wz ^^

3: Lethality Operative (The same)

 

The situation naturally require a huge pillar to be present aswell, but usually this is the case in wz, and people dum enough to duel snipers in the middle of the dune sea deserves to loose.

 

The hard counter to snipers is people who can use the map layout to their advantage.

Since the thread was about nerf's to my beloved class, I would say that if anything, the 20 sec duration of entrench could be discussed. taking away any of our snares and stuns will however destroy the class in my humble opinion.

[foxmob]

welcome to different classes gameplay. If we balanced the game by your principles, the snipers whould have had a stealth scan already by now. As for the stun and pull combo, that was only a thing against the badies working. Any decent sniper when aggroed guys like you the first thing the would do - entrench.

 

no. you cannot entrench all the time. but your reply does highlight the reason why there was nothing wrong or OP about this mechanic in the first place. they nerfed the range on cryo grenade because...what? there were too many stuns in the game? meanwhile they significantly increased the practical time it takes to build resolve, which resulted in more stuns. any sniper/gs could *eventually* be pulled from a place of power. that's a good thing. the fact that he could entrench and guarantee himself that position for a while is also a good thing.

 

as for your "different styles of gameplay," I'm talking about fundamentals here. every single ranged class has a tool to create separation, and I think we can all agree that this is designed to deal with melee, right? and every single melee has a gap closer designed - necessary for dealing with any ranged, yes? Now look at the practical applications: does your punt ever *not* work on a particular melee class? outside of full resolve (which would also apply to your getting pulled) and certain dcds (the aforementioned entrench), there is nothing to prevent you from punting. you get it? you're a ranged class; you have a punt that can only be temporarily nullified by resolve or a dcd. the same applies to the tank class gap closers (pulls). *except* when it comes to gs/snipers. and since you can maintain cover indefinitely, we're not talking about a dcd anymore. even a mara can stealth for 4s to get into melee w/o getting blasted all the way in. there are different kinds of gap closers. that's the different gameplay. not having one is a joke.

 

I'm not calling for a sniper nerf. they are fine. one of the OP's suggestions was to fix something that BW broke in their misguided attempt to "fix" stuns/resolve.

[foxmob]

What kind of gap closer do you think non stealthers have? Especially if they're up in the rafters like in Huttball. Warriors can't leap to them. Force Speed can be rooted through, and won't get to them if they're on a ledge or something. .

 

you're right, my bad. juggs/guardians are sol too.