Threat Help?

[thasensei]

Other posts floating around the forums have made me suspect that I'm not generating nearly as much threat as I should be. In fights where I can taunt freely, it's not a problem. But in those fights where I have to save a taunt for mechanics, I sometimes run into trouble. The same goes for those fights where the boss has a threat drop and I need to quickly reestablish threat.

 

I dummy parse about 700 DPS with maybe a burst to 800 DPS during my opening. Lets talk about the opener, since that's probably the most critical piece, and that's where I have the most trouble.

 

Throw > Leap > Sunder > Overhead Slash > Blade Storm > Sunder > Master Strike > Sunder > Force Sweep

 

This opening generates roughly 25000 total threat. If I taunt at this point, that bumps me up to 27500 threat. Then I've got another 6 seconds during which I'm into my normal rotation and doing 700 DPS if I don't have to move or interrupt or whatever. So 21 seconds into the fight I've burned my taunt and produced about 32000 threat.

 

If I understand the mechanics correctly, a Melee DPS would need 10% more threat to rip aggro and ranged would need 30%. So that means a Sentinel would need to be doing about 1650 DPS and a ranged DPS would need to be doing about 1950 DPS. Both are within the realm of possibility, particularly when we're talking about a 21 second time span over which most DPS classes can do some great burst damage.

 

So it seems to be that I'm simply not pumping out enough damage. I can still use an upgrade on my hilt and armoring mods (hilt is Rakata, armoring mods are the high endurance 61s), but I don't feel like that's going to make much difference.

 

What am I doing wrong here? I'd greatly appreciate any input or advice. Thanks in advance!

[JFerret]

How about adding in Hilt Strike to your rotation (generates a high amount of threat) and if specced to top of tank tree guardian slash (again generates high amount of threat).

 

I have had discussions about Guardian threat and people tell me they struggle I ask if they specced into hilt strike they tell me no, they have gone for more dps skills. No wonder they struggle. You will never match a dps on damage so why even bother trying. I do spec master strike to hit big that might help.

 

You may need to keep your single taunt for mechanics but if you know its coming you can time it right and it will have passed its cooldown, nothing to say you cant spam taunt same goes for your aoe taunt as long as you dont pull aggro from the other tank on the other boss

 

Also I wonder why your force sweep is at the end of your rotation, if specced correctly it ads 3 stacks of sunder armor, use sunder to get the extra 2 (if specced) hit him with guardian slash (smart aoe) and threat generated should be enough till you restart rotation.

 

All of the above works for me and I dont lose aggro ever.

 

It is still alot easier to hold aggro on a shadow and vanguard though but thats because they are easier to play, guardian is probably the most difficult tank to master in this game.

Edited December 4, 2012 by JFerret

[cisme]

One important thing to know is that the 110% threat rip only apply when they are within 2m of the boss this means that if you step back 2m your threat will jump from 25000 to 32500 rather than 27500. As a guardian threat will always be an issue so make sure you put on your guards and try to spam high threat abilities as much as possible maybe even replacing some high endurance armorings with high strength ones

[Ephesia]

How about adding in Hilt Strike to your rotation (generates a high amount of threat) and if specced to top of tank tree guardian slash (again generates high amount of threat).

 

I have had discussions about Guardian threat and people tell me they struggle I ask if they specced into hilt strike they tell me no, they have gone for more dps skills. No wonder they struggle. You will never match a dps on damage so why even bother trying.

 

You may need to keep your single taunt for mechanics but if you know its coming you can time it right and it will have passed its cooldown, nothing to say you cant spam taunt same goes for your aoe taunt as long as you dont pull aggro from the other tank on the other boss

 

Also I wonder why your force sweep is at the end of your rotation, if specced correctly it ads 3 stacks of sunder armor, use sunder to get the extra 2 (if specced) hit him with guardian slash (smart aoe) plus threat generation.

 

All of the above works for me and I dont lose aggro ever.

 

You are forgetting that Hilt Strike has a long cooldown is an inherenty low damage ability (45 sec). Hight Threat is only 1.5x the normal threat btw. Same goes for Guardian slash, it consumes 4 focus, has a longer cooldown and lesser damage and threat then Overhead Slash. Overhead Slash has a shorter cooldown, higher threat generation than both of the abilities.

[JFerret]

You are forgetting that Hilt Strike has a long cooldown is an inherenty low damage ability (45 sec). Hight Threat is only 1.5x the normal threat btw. Same goes for Guardian slash, it consumes 4 focus, has a longer cooldown and lesser damage and threat then Overhead Slash. Overhead Slash has a shorter cooldown, higher threat generation than both of the abilities.

 

I am not forgetting that at all but you can get 6 focus every min for free (plus easy to generate focus through sunder) and overhead slash is so far up the vigilance (dps) tree that you may as well be dps cos your mitigation sucks and I feel for any healer who has to heal a guardian tank specced that high up a dps tree.

Edited December 4, 2012 by JFerret

[thasensei]

You may need to keep your single taunt for mechanics but if you know its coming you can time it right and it will have passed its cooldown, nothing to say you cant spam taunt same goes for your aoe taunt as long as you dont pull aggro from the other tank on the other boss

From what I've heard other guardians say, I shouldn't need to burn both taunts to maintain aggro. That's what I do currently, but I'm hoping that I can improve my overall threat generation so that it's not necessary.

 

Also I wonder why your force sweep is at the end of your rotation, if specced correctly it ads 3 stacks of sunder armor, use sunder to get the extra 2 (if specced) hit him with guardian slash (smart aoe) and threat generated should be enough till you restart rotation.

I use force sweep as a focus-free filler. Since my goal in the opening is threat, everything revolves around using my hardest hitting abilities as fast as possible - so that means using Overhead Slash and Blade Storm as early and as often as I can manage.

 

One important thing to know is that the 110% threat rip only apply when they are within 2m of the boss this means that if you step back 2m your threat will jump from 25000 to 32500 rather than 27500. As a guardian threat will always be an issue so make sure you put on your guards and try to spam high threat abilities as much as possible maybe even replacing some high endurance armorings with high strength ones

I hadn't heard that bit about the 2m range before. I've always just heard it referenced as 110% and "melee distance" which I assumed to be 4m or less. Any chance you've got a reference so that I can read up on that a bit more? Also, for those mobile bosses, will they let me back up to the necessary range, or are they just going to close the gap? Is it advisable to run away for a second to taunt?

[cisme]

I hadn't heard that bit about the 2m range before. I've always just heard it referenced as 110% and "melee distance" which I assumed to be 4m or less. Any chance you've got a reference so that I can read up on that a bit more? Also, for those mobile bosses, will they let me back up to the necessary range, or are they just going to close the gap? Is it advisable to run away for a second to taunt?

 

I'm pretty sure I got that info from some post from Kitru so I have no link to give you but feel free to Google it

[Kitru]

I'm pretty sure I got that info from some post from Kitru so I have no link to give you but feel free to Google it

 

I got it from one of the big threat analysis threads nearly a year back.

 

I've never seen a definitive determination of what exactly the max distance for melee range for threat is, but it's well known that it's not the same as melee range for players (I've heard numbers as low as 1.5m and as high as 2.5m). My guess is that it's a bit of unintended artefactual code from some point in development when melee range for both players and NPCs was 2m (or what have you) and that, when attack range was increased, the threat ranges were left alone, whether by accident or intent.

 

The only way someone is actually within that range is if they're pretty much hugging the target's model. Most good DPS and tanks sit in the 3-4m range since it gives them better mobility and visibility so you should never really have to worry about ranging the target to get your additional threat out of taunt or having to deal with a 110% threat grab from an mdps. Even when you're doing general tanking, bosses will stand outside of the nominal melee threat range. I actually can't recall any bosses that insist on hugging you that closely. Sometimes pulls and leaps will bring you in closer, but the boss won't move until you actually get outside of 4m (barring specific mechanics).

[Slivovidze]

I probably roll the same build as OP, I have pretty much the same opener (just reversed OHS with Bladestrom sometimes, to get blade barrier up asap), but I do not have aggro problems at bossfights, unless dps guys don't give me a GCD or two to build my threat. I am even less geared than you.

If you lose threat at the beginning of the fight, it is probably fault of the mean DPS who burst immediately and thus you can't get your initial aggro. Try talking to them and/or guarding them.

If you lose threat midfight, it is possible that you screw up your focus management. Make sure to pop combat focus every time you run dry (after the initial spike, of course) to squeeze the cooldowns on OHS and Bladestorm as much as possible. Make sure to keep attacking even if dry on focus, be it just a force push or strike, and do not forget to squeeze Riposte on cooldown. And of course, Forcesweep on CD as it's free (providing you run same build as me).

 

TBH you actually seem to me as more experienced tank than me so I am not even sure what am I trying here, but I'm just saying that I don't have problems with threat in my guild (we are all rakata with some campaign pieces and a bit mod tuning). I even managed to learn to never ever use taunts before sh*t hits the fan and my group starts taking serious damage (and still holding threat, of course).

 

Also, there is thread started by me somewhere around this thread, it is about accuracy. If you roll like me with zero gear accuracy, you might miss one OHS and there is fire on the roof, because your DPS buddies hit everything they have. That happnes to me. Rarely, but happens.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Slivovidze

[JFerret]

From what I've heard other guardians say, I shouldn't need to burn both taunts to maintain aggro. That's what I do currently, but I'm hoping that I can improve my overall threat generation so that it's not necessary.

 

The other tanks are shadows/vanguards? Yes they dont have the same woe's as a guardian for keeping threat which is why they dont have to spam taunt. The guardian is the hardest tank to play to keep aggro its as simple as that, you want tips for keeping aggro then spam taunt if you dont u will lose aggro there is no other way around it until bioware fix the guardian tank class in some way or allows a better hybrid such as the Shadow that gives the mitigation a tank needs in ops plus the damage to keep threat.

[Slivovidze]

The other tanks are shadows/vanguards? Yes they dont have the same woe's as a guardian for keeping threat which is why they dont have to spam taunt. The guardian is the hardest tank to play to keep aggro its as simple as that, you want tips for keeping aggro then spam taunt if you dont u will lose aggro there is no other way around it until bioware fix the guardian tank class in some way or allows a better hybrid such as the Shadow that gives the mitigation a tank needs in ops plus the damage to keep threat.

 

Umm check again what you quoted, he said "The other guardians"... And I as a guardian don't need to spam taunts either, even though I admit that I am not in top tier of game content yet (I am right under it).

[WooduckAUS]

I have similar sounding build and rotation as OP, by the sound of it. Shouldn't need to use taunts in rotation, save for fight mechanics, when you have it down right. I'll throw a force sweep in at the start of my rotation. Normally after my leap in, then follow with sunder for full armor debuffs. With buffs from the skill tree it is only a little behind OS and BS for threat, but gives the armor debuffs.

 

Like someone else said, could be your dps jumping in too hard too early. Also if you are less geared then your dps, could be the cause of it too.

[_gideon]

I got it from one of the big threat analysis threads nearly a year back.

 

I've never seen a definitive determination of what exactly the max distance for melee range for threat is, but it's well known that it's not the same as melee range for players (I've heard numbers as low as 1.5m and as high as 2.5m). My guess is that it's a bit of unintended artefactual code from some point in development when melee range for both players and NPCs was 2m (or what have you) and that, when attack range was increased, the threat ranges were left alone, whether by accident or intent.

 

Here's some good testing showing that the melee threat range is 2.75m on target dummies: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-786-post-21688.html#pid21688

 

If you walk around inside a large mob it shows that you are 0m from the target at all points inside the hitbox. This led me to believe that 2.75m from the edge of the target dummy might be 4m from the dead centre with ability range calculated to the edge and threat range calculated to the dead centre.

 

Unless the threshold range turns out to be 2.75m for all targets regardless of size, but that would be a pita to test.

Edited December 6, 2012 by _gideon

[Kitru]

If you walk around inside a large mob it shows that you are 0m from the target at all points inside the hitbox. This led me to believe that 2.75m from the edge of the target dummy might be 4m from the dead centre with ability range calculated to the edge and threat range calculated to the dead centre.

 

This makes the most sense. Threat range is determined by range from absolute center whereas attack range is determined by range from the edge of the model. It groks with my experience, especially the differences in handling threat with large targets versus small ones (large targets tend to be easier, most likely because DPS is less likely to accidentally intrude into the melee threat range).

[DinesenDK]

Throw > Leap > Sunder > Overhead Slash > Blade Storm > Sunder > Master Strike > Sunder > Force Sweep

 

This opening generates roughly 25000 total threat.

Hello,

 

I'm a returning player who decided to try out guardian for tanking. After reading this interesting thread I'm rather puzzled from where you get the threat-numbers from??

 

anyone care to explain please?

[grallmate]

Hello,

 

I'm a returning player who decided to try out guardian for tanking. After reading this interesting thread I'm rather puzzled from where you get the threat-numbers from??

 

anyone care to explain please?

 

These number come from the combat logs, either from a real time parser such as SWMoniTOR or Mox or a web parser such as AskMrRobot or TorParse.

 

In terms of melee vs ranged threat thresholds I also hypothesised that it was from the centre of the mob model while the range displayed in the UI is from the edge. I suspect this is also the case with mechanics like Zorn's fearful.

 

OP: For the opener where I really can't afford to lose threat like Writhing Horror, I use:

Throw -> Leap (and Power Adrenal to avoid animation delay) -> Sunder -> Blade Storm -> Force Sweep -> Sunder -> Force Stasis -> OHS (Taunt) -> Sunder -> Blade Storm -> Master Strike (AoE Taunt)

I also use Riposte as soon as its available and on CD thereafter.

 

I like this rotation because it maximizes survivability and ensures I am getting maximum threat from OHS and Master Strike. Solo, I only have 4 stacks of Sunder for OHS and 5 for Master Strike, while in a raid, the 20% armor debuff from our 'Slinger makes this a non-issue. It also ensures I am getting my DoTs from Blade Storm and Stasis ticking ASAP. I also have enough CDs to avoid needing my armor adrenal until it has come of CD and being a Biochem this doesn't cost me anything.

[DinesenDK]

These number come from the combat logs, either from a real time parser such as SWMoniTOR or Mox or a web parser such as AskMrRobot or TorParse.

Thanks, all I needed to know.

[thasensei]

So I got to do some playing around last night. In my opening burst, I'm able to get to about 850 DPS, but that's only sustainable for a few seconds. So I'm getting close to that 1800 TPS that I hear people talk about, but it's not even close to sustainable. I'd love to see some parses if anybody has one they wouldn't mind sharing.

 

I think paying attention to my distance when I taunt helps out a lot. I noticed that when I leap to Writhing Horror I'm at 0m. I know hitboxes and distances can be funny, but my taunts seemed to be a lot more effective when I started backing up a bit. So a huge thank you to everyone that pointed that out!

 

OP: For the opener where I really can't afford to lose threat like Writhing Horror, I use:

Throw -> Leap (and Power Adrenal to avoid animation delay) -> Sunder -> Blade Storm -> Force Sweep -> Sunder -> Force Stasis -> OHS (Taunt) -> Sunder -> Blade Storm -> Master Strike (AoE Taunt)

I also use Riposte as soon as its available and on CD thereafter.

 

I like this rotation because it maximizes survivability and ensures I am getting maximum threat from OHS and Master Strike. Solo, I only have 4 stacks of Sunder for OHS and 5 for Master Strike, while in a raid, the 20% armor debuff from our 'Slinger makes this a non-issue. It also ensures I am getting my DoTs from Blade Storm and Stasis ticking ASAP. I also have enough CDs to avoid needing my armor adrenal until it has come of CD and being a Biochem this doesn't cost me anything.

 

Thanks grallmate, that's exactly what I was lookin for. I'll have to try this out on a couple dummy parses and see if it makes any difference.

 

I think the biggest difference in your rotation and mine is your Stasis. I am currently spec'd for Force Rush (OHS gives a higher chance to crit on Blade Storm/Dispatch) instead of Stasis Mastery. Is Stasis worth it over the extra crit chances?

[grallmate]

I think the biggest difference in your rotation and mine is your Stasis. I am currently spec'd for Force Rush (OHS gives a higher chance to crit on Blade Storm/Dispatch) instead of Stasis Mastery. Is Stasis worth it over the extra crit chances?

 

Basically, if you don't have Stasis Mastery, don't use Force Stasis for anything other than to generate 2 Focus over ~2.1 seconds (due to ability knockback and you want to break the channel after its second tick since you won't see a third). It's basically a useless ability for a tank without Mastery for this reason. It generates the same Focus as Sunder but over a longer period, it generates lower threat than most of your other abilities and the stun is useless on Ops bosses. I had tried not taking Stasis Mastery (got Courage instead) but I found my rotation felt much more fluid with Mastery.

 

Since you've taken Force Rush you'll probably need to tweak my rotation to have OHS before Blade Storm. Something like:

Throw -> Leap -> Sunder -> Sweep -> OHS -> Sunder -> Blade Storm -> (Combat Focus) -> Slash -> Sunder -> Master Strike -> Sunder -> OHS -> Blade Storm

It's less fluid and its probably the only time you'd use Slash since you have Focus, need the extra threat and can't afford to use Strike that early on. I don't know how well this would sync up with your CDs later on either.

 

Another important consideration, I almost always have the Focus to use Blade Storm on CD but later on OHS is a bit of a drain on Focus so gets used a lot less, once we're at the sub 30% mark I replace it with Dispatch. Unless you're using OHS before BS or Dispatch, Force Rush isn't being utilized, perhaps adding the burning DoT to OHS (Burning Purpose) would work better for you?

 

On that note, do you have 2 points in Force Rush or just 1? Similarly, do you have both points of Blade Barrier? DO NOT drop a point in Blade Barrier, it is very important to have it up every time you BS.

[Jason_T]

I think also the way the Taunts work for Guardians is an issue. They force the enemies to attack you for something like 6 seconds regardless of threat. They supposedly add a certain % of threat based on the current threat on the enemy, and also something to do with your distance form the enemy as well, but I havent seen a good breakdown on this.

 

I am not always able to keep every enemy off the DPSers if they dont keep their DPS reasonable. In every MMO I've played the DPS can easily pull agro off a tank if they dont keep themselves in check. Just dont forget it is their job to manage their own threat if they are getting beat on too much. I just try to keep them on me as much as possible but knowing it wont be possible 100% of the time.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Jason_T

[Kitru]

The "taunts' dont necessarily directly add to your threat though (at least the description does not indicate this if they do)

 

The taunts provide you, at the time of application, sufficient threat to force the target to attack you *in addition to* the Taunt debuff. It's not a flat quantity of threat; it varies based upon how much threat has already been generated on the target (your range to the target also matters: if you are within 4m of the center of the target, it provides you with 110% of total threat; if you are outside of 4m from the center of the target, it provides you with 130% of total threat). In the first 15 seconds of a fight, the threat generated by Taunts are largely negligible because not enough threat has been generated. After this, however, Taunts are the single most effective threat generators available, such that, if you taunt after roughly a minute or more of fighting, you'll never lose threat for the remainder of the fight (unless someone else taunts off of you or a threat drop occurs).