Time to revisit Crushing blow Bio

[Elyxin]

So, now that f2p is out of the way I want to re-address an issue that has long embittered the Juggernaut AC (and also our brother guardians). And I apologize up front for the length of the post

 

Crushing blow. It is, simply put, a waste of talent points. Many of us long term jugg's know this, but I thought that looking at the basic numbers would help express to the newer crowd of tanks the reasons why we think it's wasted points, as well as expressing to Bio how horrible the design is, in hopes that they are willing to revisit a mediocre talent that was broken even further In 1.4 when they tried "fixing" the immortal tree.

 

Liability clause: I am not a mathematician, nor am I in the field of statistics or science. But the basic elements of this issue can be understood with a grade school level understanding of math. So I apologize for the minor inaccuracies, and if anyone has any other relevant data (not opinions...we get plenty of those on these forums), please feel free to add to the discussion. and before the Trolls get on the bandwagon, I am a firm supporter of the immortal spec. I like how it plays as a class, and I feel that a complete rework is not necessary. but there are a few very glaring aspects of the tree that are a cancer, and Bio needs to understand this. So onto my primitive math!

 

First, a comparison of AoE abilities. 1.4 completely altered Crushing blow and changed it from a very nice heavy hitting single target skill to a mild "AoE" with some interesting, but relatively unusable features. I assume that it's because of these features that Bio felt it necessary to kill its damage outright, but as you'll see below, these features don't add up to a useable or even beneficial package when compared to other skills. the critical reason for this is rage cost, and environmental variables that make the full potential of crushing blow a complex niche skill at best, and worthless at worst. For AoE comparisons, Ill be using Sweeping Slash. Smash is not a good comparison...it completely outperforms crushing blow by so much it's not a valid comparison. Smash with the appropriate talents is one of the most powerful abilities a Juggernaut tank has, hands down.

 

Note: these numbers are based on the skill descriptions from Torhead. actual in game skill descriptions may vary, and the numbers that float up above your screen may also be different. these are baseline numbers for comparison only:

 

Sweeping slash basic:

599.5 average (round to 600) x5

cost: 3 rage

damage per rage: 200 pts per opponent, potential of 1000 pts overall per pt of rage.

 

possible talents

Heavy Handed = 8%

Decimate = 20%

 

Total of sweeping slash with talents:

768 average x5

Damage per rage:

256 pts, or 1280 overall for 5 per pt of rage

 

crushing blow basic:

1120.5 Average (r 1121) x3 + KD on standard or less

Cost: 5 rage

Possible Talent boosts: none

 

Total damage:

1121 x3

Damage per Rage:

224.2 (r 224), or 672 on all 3 targets overall, per rage

 

Verdict for max targets: Sweeping slash wins due to 5 targets

Sweeping slash: 1280dmg/rage

Crushing blow: 672dmg/rage

 

Verdict for 3 targets max:

Sweeping slash: 768dmg/rage for 3

Crushing Blow: 672dmg/rage for 3

 

Individual targets:

Sweeping slash: 256dmg/rage

Crushing blow: 224dmg/rage

 

overall verdict: Sweeping slash is the victor, being far more efficient at bringing in damage then Crushing blow, even on individual targets. Crushing blows only advantage is it knocks down standard or weaker targets. But at the same time, without a full 5 stack on the main target, this effect, in addition to the nominal AoE it provides, wont happen. In other words, sweeping slash, which was thought of even prior to 1.4 as an inferior Aoe talent, is better damage then the new crushing blow. the talents are easy enough to get in a normal Immortal build, so i believe that the talented numbers are a fair comparison.

 

Now, we know that Crushing blow sucks for AoE. no surprise there. but what about single target? due to the complex set of mechanics that need to be in place for it's AoE element to work, perhaps we should look at it's single target strengths. in light of this, i will compare it with a single target skill we have, Vicious slash. Please keep in mind that in order to get maximum talent bonuses for vicious slash, it would take solid investment in the Rage tree, which is doable but not optimal for tanking specs. so i will include both numbers for comparison.

 

Vicious Slash:

base average = 2342 on one target

Cost: 3 Rage

 

Possible Talent bonuses:

Saber Strength: 6%

Brutality: 7.5% (assuming default crit rate of 50%)

total with talents: 2658

 

Damage per Rage:

without talents : 780.66 (r 781) per rage

with talents: 886 per rage

 

Crushing Blow Damage per rage

224.2 (r224) per rage

 

even just a basic comparison shows that Vicious Slash blows Crushing blow out of the water on single targets, even without the talents. On AoE targets, Sweeping Slash is a clear winner. Obviously this overall impact wasn't taken into account when the talent was changed. It is at this point probably the weakest skill to exists in the Juggernauts arsenal...period. whether you are comparing it at full damage, or damage per rage, it simply looses. And yet, immortal juggernauts have to invest 30 points into the tree to unlock the benefit of this "amazing" talent. It is simply a waste of points. If Sweeping fury weren't so high in the tree, there would be no reason whatsoever to invest points beyond tier 5.

 

many hybrid fans don't think there is a reason to even invest that deep. but I find the skills you gain in tier 5 extremely beneficial, and for those who PuG 4 man's regularly, the extra rage from Sweeping Fury in tier 6 is also a must. but the rest are a waste of time. Immortal needs a 31pt talent worth of being a 31pt skill. Shattering blow is worth 31 pts in vengeance...Force crush is worth 31pts in Rage. Crushing blow isn't worth the points invested to even get there, much less the point in the skill itself. In my humble opinion, even tanks serious about the immortal tree should invest only as deep as tier 5, and take 2 points in sweeping fury, and spend the rest in more advantageous positions.

 

It is a sad day when your basic attack at level one outperforms your highest talent in the tree. I hope that Bio starts paying attention, and realizes that just because a class "works" doesn't mean it isn't "broke". When you can tank almost as effectively (and in some ways better) as a FULL DPS SPEC then you can in a full tank spec, there's something vastly wrong. the reason Immortal can work is the huge boost we gain from threat in Soresu Stance, and because of the borderline OP nature of taunts in this game, NOT because immortal as a tree works. and definitely not because of crushing blow. it is simply the lowest point of an already low performing tree.

[Siorac]

There are some slight problems with this.

 

Crushing Blow costs 4 Rage, not 5 which completely messes up your numbers. Also, you failed to take its threat multiplier into account which is very significant.

 

The ability needs to be reworked because compared to something like Wither/Slow Time it's bad but let's keep the discussion at a serious level which doesn't involve comparing Crushing Blow to Vicious Slash...

[Carousel_t]

sweep > sunder > crushing blow. that's all it takes to get another aoe dealing skill. i do, however, sympathise with OP. crushing blow needs some love as it's damage (and threat generating) is on pair with impale - which is kinda sad.

[Elyxin]

There are some slight problems with this.

 

Crushing Blow costs 4 Rage, not 5 which completely messes up your numbers. Also, you failed to take its threat multiplier into account which is very significant.

 

The ability needs to be reworked because compared to something like Wither/Slow Time it's bad but let's keep the discussion at a serious level which doesn't involve comparing Crushing Blow to Vicious Slash...

 

thanks for the reminder. Not sure where I got 5. ill have to recalculate my numbers. But aside from that, your comment piqued my curiosity. why is it not serious comparing crushing blow to vicious slash? i would appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

 

Edit: revised numbers :

AoE

Verdict for max targets: Sweeping slash wins due to 5 targets

Sweeping slash: 1280dmg/rage

Crushing blow: 840dmg/rage

 

Verdict for 3 targets max: Crush is ahead now

Sweeping slash: 768dmg/rage for 3

Crushing Blow: 840dmg/rage for 3

 

Individual targets: crush ahead by a bit. Verdict: 3 targets or less, crush wins. that is assuming you have 5 stacks of sunder.

Sweeping slash: 256dmg/rage

Crushing blow: 280dmg/rage

 

Single target (crush vs. Vicious slash)

Damage per Rage:

without talents : 780.66 (r 781) per rage

with talents: 886 per rage

 

Crushing Blow Damage per rage

280 (r224) per rage

 

So...if you have 5 stacks of sunder, crush wins in with 3 targets or less. that appeases my worries a bit. but we still have a complex process to engage it's fullest aspects. yeah, it's only a few extra GCD's. yeah it's extra threat. But then again, Force sweep has extra threat as well (talented), and in the time it takes you to get those sunders up and use Crush, you could hit Force sweep twice, probably top the threat gen on crush on 5 targets, and spend less rage to get more damage and threat.

 

And vicious is a perfect comparison. crush gets more threat...but how much? enough to combat the lost DPS?

 

Its not like I don't see the benefits crushing blow has. But IMO it's not a silly comparison, it's very valid. It points out that we already have 2 skills in place that can do what crushing blow does, and far simpler. with less rage. and we don't have to spend 31pts to get them that way. But I honestly think were both in agreement, it needs to be reworked.

 

i wasn't unhappy with the previous version of Crushing blow. it hit hard, did good threat, applied sunders, and with 5 stacks hit even harder. i was totally mystified (as were many) when they switched it. with so many other options out there we didn't need another AoE, especially a throttled one. they could have doubled the threat output on smash. added a KB effect to force sweep...it just doesn't make sense.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Elyxin

[LilTsar]

vicious slash is the perfect comparison. virtually every other single-target rotational ability has a reason for usage, ie sunder, ravage, choke and even push either build rage or due to lack of cost help management, scream grants sonic barrier and retaliation grants blade barricade. crushing blow has threat, and jack else, and we already have smash and the occasional free backhand for that. so that leaves vicious slash/throw. and wither. and of course 'unstoppable' from vengeance, since that's the basic trade you get for dropping crushing blow.

[KVork]

OP, there is a flaw in yur calculations that makes Crushing Blow even more useless.

 

Sweeping Slash on contrary with Smash does hit more than 5 targets, up to 8 I believe. So in endgame when you slash , lets say a pack of trandoshians in Denova you get appr. 8x 1000dmg, thus generating roughly 20000 threat. All this for 3 rage, and now explain to me what the f*** is Crushing Blow for?

Edited December 4, 2012 by KVork

[Anysao]

I just use it for the threat gain... With a force sweep/smash for extra threat, so I can save my taunt. I love my guardian slash

[Atramar]

Didn't know some still uses full guard/jugg tanking tree...

[Siorac]

OP, there is a flaw in yur calculations that makes Crushing Blow even more useless.

 

Sweeping Slash on contrary with Smash does hit more than 5 targets, up to 8 I believe. So in endgame when you slash , lets say a pack of trandoshians in Denova you get appr. 8x 1000dmg, thus generating roughly 20000 threat. All this for 3 rage, and now explain to me what the f*** is Crushing Blow for?

 

No, it hits up to 5 targets.

 

Crushing Blow is for burst threat, basically. It's not really an AoE tanking tool though a Charge - Smash - Sunder - Crushing Blow sequence is a perfectly valid opener when tanking trash - not that anyone cares about tanking trash, really.

 

Throw - Charge - Smash - Sunder - Crushing Blow - Ravage >> that's huge burst threat at the start of an encounter so if the DPS hold it in their pants a little you should have no trouble managing aggro. Throw in a taunt after this and you're basically done.

 

The real problem with the ability doesn't come compared to Sweeping Slash or Vicious Slash (VS is nothing but a filler attack, no "utility", medium damage, relatively high cost, it's really stupid to compare it to Crushing Blow which is still far more useful overall) - the problem is that it's damage is so pitiful even with the multiplier that a single Impale generates comparable threat and it can be used more often for the same cost. The smart AoE is useless in boss tanking while five stacks of Sunder can be achieved easily via Smash and Sundering Assault so it's really only the extra threat that makes it worthwhile.

[Darth_Dreselus]

I run a full Immortal build after trying Hybrid.

 

I found that full Immortal just gives me more snap threat. The opener (20-25s) gives me on average 30k threat without taunts, where as 20-25s of Hybrid (i.e. 2 Screams and Impales) gives me on average 25k threat without taunts. I chose 20s because it is around the time a tank switch happens and if there is no need for switches then it is long enough to throw out 2 taunts.

 

Here is a quick parse but it is kinda old, I have since gotten more strength on gear, upgraded from 52 to 58 hilt and incorporated the Strength talent into my build (I was using the boost to Ravage before). I used MoX afterwards to just see how much damage I do and the strength buff was superior. I will do a threat parse of the new build and gear and post it later.

 

Fights: http://www.torparse.com/a/54078

Immortal 1, 3, 4, 5

Hybrid 8, 9, 10, 11

 

You can also see the effect of Crushing Blow v Impale

CB - non crit is 900-930 dmg and 2350-2410 threat

I - non crit is 1090-1180 dmg and 2180-2370 threat

 

In fact I would say that on their own they are too close to call but remember that in this parse Impale did have the strength buff and CB did not. You also get 2 Impales per 18s but only 1 CB per 15s. I will do more parsing in the future.

 

As an AoE CB is pretty bad and I don't really think of it as one. I also like its animation which personally was enough of a reason to run Immortal over Hybrid.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Darth_Dreselus