7k smash,...intended?

[SgtBranham]

a 5k hit is OK... i said nothing is wrong with .... A 5K AOE HIT IS NOT OK... A 6K AOE HIT IS NOT OK... A 7K AOE HIT IS NOT OK.

 

point in case.... if i jump at you and i can immediately hit the smash button with it attached to my mouse buttons. its quicker then most can hit KB. in fact there are times i have force sweeped(same as smash), i swept as they kb'd and still saw the damage go above their head. I have killed people as they popped into stealth trying to get away from my sweep.

 

an AOE doing this damage is not appropriate. look at all other AOE damages in the game. you will find they do not do anywhere near this kind of damage.

 

P.S. oh and in a warzone 2 days ago... i saw 7 juggs and guardians all top damage. lately its been about 4 avg sometimes more on one side. i am seeing more and more lightsabers(melee) in warzones. This reminded me of the days when i saw Sorcs/Sages overrunning the WZs. before their nerf

 

This is just one of the unique abilities of the class. Not every class can ignore 100% of targets armor like carnage marauders can. Not everyone call pull friendly targets (sorc) or deny an area like an engineering sniper can. Its part of what gives each advance class its own flavor. Its fine against equally geared players and with 1.6 everyone will be equally geared to the point that you won't be able to make that argument anymore.

[CharterMonkKent]

a 5k hit is OK... i said nothing is wrong with .... A 5K AOE HIT IS NOT OK... A 6K AOE HIT IS NOT OK... A 7K AOE HIT IS NOT OK.

 

point in case.... if i jump at you and i can immediately hit the smash button with it attached to my mouse buttons. its quicker then most can hit KB. in fact there are times i have force sweeped(same as smash), i swept as they kb'd and still saw the damage go above their head. I have killed people as they popped into stealth trying to get away from my sweep.

 

an AOE doing this damage is not appropriate. look at all other AOE damages in the game. you will find they do not do anywhere near this kind of damage.

 

P.S. oh and in a warzone 2 days ago... i saw 7 juggs and guardians all top damage. lately its been about 4 avg sometimes more on one side. i am seeing more and more lightsabers(melee) in warzones. This reminded me of the days when i saw Sorcs/Sages overrunning the WZs. before their nerf

 

Should rage/focus be complaining when smash hits for under 4k?

 

Reality check. My smash hits between 2.9k-6.7k. There are so many factors that decide on where the hit will fall in that scale. On top of that there are a number of abilities in game that make smash "hit" for zero damage.

 

Out of all main dps tree attacks in this game, smash is one of the easiest to negate/avoid/reduce.

 

If you got hit for 7K. there was a combination of debuffs/buffs/CDs/gear imbalance. And no saying "I'm in full WH", WH is by no means the best gear in pvp. Like most classes, with rage/focus there is a huge gap between WH and BiS.

[DrRepulsor]

OK u all cry babies, I have jugg and and my smash crit on light armor like sorc/sage/assin dps for 7-7.5 k and yes my force bonus dmg if some1 asking is 1100 how i got that much and yes im running around 1200 exp on heavy armor like bh/warriors dps i hit near from 5.5-6.5k it also depends on medium armor up to 6.5-6.8k. And i forget i have marauder smash spec which i do nto play mauch but his full wh min/max as my jugg hits like truck around these numbers as well.

And yes I think rage spec is OP what im proposing its just my idea take or hate I do not care make smash hit like its on target u are on and all other players hit for only 50-60%of dmg it supposed to do on first target.

Ok if u do not like first idea have another one make smash hit for 15-20% less in pvp depend developers now how to round numbers. But in pve make is the same as it is like some cry baby will not cry and ask about pve crap!

Edited November 26, 2012 by DrRepulsor

[PlagaNerezza]

Should rage/focus be complaining when smash hits for under 4k?

 

Reality check. My smash hits between 2.9k-6.7k. There are so many factors that decide on where the hit will fall in that scale. On top of that there are a number of abilities in game that make smash "hit" for zero damage.

 

Out of all main dps tree attacks in this game, smash is one of the easiest to negate/avoid/reduce.

 

If you got hit for 7K. there was a combination of debuffs/buffs/CDs/gear imbalance. And no saying "I'm in full WH", WH is by no means the best gear in pvp. Like most classes, with rage/focus there is a huge gap between WH and BiS.

 

Any skill when used ineffectively can be made to underproduce. Smashing without leaping sucks. We all know that its like a maul without duplicity up.

 

The point most people make is not the single hit. Although some people argue that it's to much dps burst, the fact is that its an instant cast AOE crit hit and good people can chain them very easily and coordinate massive AOE critical hitting burst damage on opponents.

 

If smash was a single hitting ability it wouldn't be much different from any other burst class in the game. Since it operates in a different manner it is open to being questioned on its "fairness".

 

I don't get your point. So a combination that nets you a 7k smash is not valid concern about a tree?

 

Your grasping at straws.

Edited November 26, 2012 by PlagaNerezza

[RogueNights]

This is the silly part. Juggs damage output is only as good as the enemy team is stupid. SPREAD OUT. Don't stand where 5 people can get smashed. Sure there are a few bottle necks in WZs but keep that to a minimum. Also, lets mention that in the 9 seconds smash is on cooldown, Juggs hit like a wet noodle compared to the other melee dps classes. It all builds up on one attack. Yes it hits hard. Yes it can hit alot of people if they bunch up. Its a burst damage ability and when factored in so that all damage is taken as a whole, they are on par with the other melee DPS classes.

 

Would agree that jugs can run into serious dps problems post smash which theoretically would compensate a little for having op smashes.. Would say 2 things negate the effect tho, the first is how front loaded jugs dps is, their average dps in the first few gcd is clearly the best/near the best, however even up until the 2nd smash, it is still very good. The 2nd is if the opposing team does not have enough heals and enough opponents are low health, jugs are able to add vicious throw to their rotation, which is enough to give them very very good single target dps between smashes..

[WolfSp]

Someone said that already, but how long is the Cd on that smash? And the jump thats more or less needed for the jug to be able to smash something? Someone said that already but in PvP Dps has to be considered too. If a class can kite well and is ranged the dps will be higher then a class that can do one single hard hit and then more or less nothing for a while. It feels different for the one being hit but in fact the potential of killing an enemy will most likely be equal. Yes, 4 or 5 "smashers" will instakill at least one player using those Cds. But then it takes a while to follow this effort up. I have to admit i dont have data to back this up but i assume it is not that unbalanced.

[CharterMonkKent]

The point most people make is not the single hit. Although some people argue that it's to much dps burst, the fact is that its an instant cast AOE crit hit and good people can chain them very easily and coordinate massive AOE critical hitting burst damage on opponents.

 

If smash was a single hitting ability it wouldn't be much different from any other burst class in the game. Since it operates in a different manner it is open to being questioned on its "fairness".

 

I don't get your point. So a combination that nets you a 7k smash is not valid concern about a tree?

 

Your grasping at straws.

 

I wasn't making an argument. Not sure where you saw that in my post. My point was sharing actual numbers instead of the posts about 7-9k hits happening all the time in WZs. Over exaggeration ruins discussions all the time in these forums.

 

Smash as a single target ability would cause issues for any of the classes counters (i.e. those with AOE damage reduction). It would also make Rage one of the worst DPS classes in game, on par with lethality operative.

 

Smash hits 2 people max. Any more than that and it's the fault of the people in the AOE, i.e. awful game play. Grouping in WZs is the way to lose in rated or non. Let's not ask to nerf classes because people aren't good enough to understand the basics of play in this game.

 

The only problem with smash is the gear imbalance in this game. Which should hopefully end in 1.6

[UGLYMRJ]

I have 1370 expertise and I get hit by 6.5-7k smashes/sweeps quite frequently.

 

Pics or it didn't happen...

 

 

Just kidding... it didn't happen.

[CharterMonkKent]

Pics or it didn't happen...

 

 

Just kidding... it didn't happen.

 

see it's statements like that which make discussions pointless. 7k smashes "frequently", then state just expertise stats. There are so many factors. Where are the complaints about TD/ED/RS hitting all at once for 12-14k damage? I miss those..

 

When I'm on my sorc healer I'll get hit for high 6s from time to time. But that only happens when I don't have my bubble up and the jugg hasn't been taunted.

 

The reality of a 7k smash on my sorc, the squishiest of them all...

 

1. 4K-5K absorbed by the bubble

2. Smash damage reduced by taunt

3. I take 2k applied HP pool damage

4. During the smash I'm healed for 1.5k from my splash AOE

 

Worst case scenario on 7k smash without bubble

 

1. I take 7k damage

2. 6.6k instant self heal.

3. try again in 10 seconds if you aren't dead by then

[WaywardOne]

Any skill when used ineffectively can be made to underproduce. Smashing without leaping sucks. We all know that its like a maul without duplicity up.

 

The point most people make is not the single hit. Although some people argue that it's to much dps burst, the fact is that its an instant cast AOE crit hit and good people can chain them very easily and coordinate massive AOE critical hitting burst damage on opponents.

 

If smash was a single hitting ability it wouldn't be much different from any other burst class in the game. Since it operates in a different manner it is open to being questioned on its "fairness".

 

I don't get your point. So a combination that nets you a 7k smash is not valid concern about a tree?

 

Your grasping at straws.

 

Prove that there is a problem. Arguing that there is a problem by saying "6.8 is too much" is not proof. How often does it happen? What happens when you have a bubble, guard, an aoe taunted area, 1300 exp and 3 smashes whack you? I'll tell you: YOU LAUGH AND SAY "DO IT AGAIN!". What game are you playing?

[SenseX]

Of course it is possible. So here's the completely gimped ROFLSTOMPING build for Sentinels and how you get those insane hits: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501ZGMrRMbMzZur0rdf.2

 

Running Ataru Form (oh yeah!) you simply do:

1. Inspiration (+15% damage)

2. Force/Zealous Leap (100% critical chance on Sweep)

3. Force Stasis (100% damage bonus on Sweep)

4. Precision Slash (100% armor penetration)

5. HULK SMASH!!!

 

This works really well against non/semi-skilled players, it's utterly useless against skilled players and/or in RWZs.

Since it's crucial that you get all ticks from 3., you can throw in an Awe after 2., wait for someone to use CC breaker and then proceed with 3. on that person.

 

Ideally you also optimize your gear completely towards Power & Surge Rating with 0 Critical Rating.

 

Go try it!

 

Oh and after that you can still do a few things (like debuff/root healers with Crippling Throw) but overall you're pretty useless while you don't have those cooldowns. Anyway, if you Sweep 5 well geared people like this you can easily do a total of 40k+ damage with 1 hit and make people go *** CHEATER?! which is kinda funny...

Edited November 26, 2012 by SenseX

[BoDiE]

Exactly.

Are rage juggs/maras the best 1v1 class/spec? Heck no.

 

Do rage juggs/maras always or even usually top damage boards in wzs? No (but yes it can happen and some players are better at wz scoreboards than others - so what?)

 

So what makes them op'd? Because they can pop the biggest crits every so often? That seems to be the entire argument.

 

Now I know maranabs are retarded.

[BoDiE]

Pics or it didn't happen...

 

 

Just kidding... it didn't happen.

 

Oh it did, and does often.

[PlagaNerezza]

I wasn't making an argument. Not sure where you saw that in my post. My point was sharing actual numbers instead of the posts about 7-9k hits happening all the time in WZs. Over exaggeration ruins discussions all the time in these forums.

 

Smash as a single target ability would cause issues for any of the classes counters (i.e. those with AOE damage reduction). It would also make Rage one of the worst DPS classes in game, on par with lethality operative.

 

Smash hits 2 people max. Any more than that and it's the fault of the people in the AOE, i.e. awful game play. Grouping in WZs is the way to lose in rated or non. Let's not ask to nerf classes because people aren't good enough to understand the basics of play in this game.

 

The only problem with smash is the gear imbalance in this game. Which should hopefully end in 1.6

 

The game is mechanically designed to tunnel people together. All of the maps require you to be in very tight areas or you'll lose the objectives. I am not saying make it a single target hit.

 

Its an AOE auto critical ability that can top 5k damage easily by any descently geared and skilled player with the potential to top 6-7k in the hands of geared good players and can come near 8-9k on ungeared players.

 

If coordinated spike teams can and do kill mutliple targets in about 1 gcd without much warning to the incoming burst its worth for the sake of fun gameplay to be looked at. I don't think its unreasonable and unexpected that the rage tree and have it brought back inline with other burst classes. Its been mentioned as on that list. How that is done is up to the developers. Saying its fine is ignoring the fact that it is being reviewed.

 

What I would think as a reasonable solution would be to adjust the skill dominate. Max out the critical to be like recklessnesses 60%. Infact make it identical to recklessness with 2 (possible 3 with gear) charges.

 

At the very least this would force you to have some mods and enhancements into providing additional critical and thus balance out the smash dps over time. This wouldn't be a huge change but something that reduced the AOE effectiveness. It would limit the smash critical to 2 victims or on a single target give you a critical force scream.

 

Since ravage is weapons damage it would not be impacted.

 

or

 

Just limit the critical hits that dominate delivers to 2 opponents. I just happen to believe its easier for the developers to use recklessness and charges because its already in game and works. (SEE Assassin using recklessness then discharge). Even if it means they might get more critical hits on force scream.

 

If you claim it only hits 2 people most times cap the amount of critical hits it delivers to 2 opponents. You'd probably oppose that too though.

[AMKSED]

I've already asked for a video of someone dueling a friend with both people in high-end PvP gear. And not a single link has been posted.

[Antipodes]

Fortunately for you naysayers I took a screenshot of the scoreboard because I knew the smashers/sweepers wouldn't believe me. I guess I lied, the sweep was 9542. Hopefully this works because I seldom post images online.

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img42/7075/screenshot2012111623443.jpg

 

Edit: Yay, it appears to have worked on my end. Enjoy!

 

I wear just above 1200 expertise on my Sage and Jiraya sweeps me for about 7.2k. That's just with the Vindicator's 4 set bonus and not inspiration or the expertise buff afaik.

 

There's another Focus Guardian, Allcard, that hits me for 7k+ regularly too. Both of them have over 700 bonus damage.

[CharterMonkKent]

The game is mechanically designed to tunnel people together if this is your mentality in WZs I don't want to be on your team . All of the maps require you to be in very tight areas or you'll lose the objectives Which map requires Melee/Healer/Ranged to be within 5m of each other? . I am not saying make it a single target hit.

 

Its an AOE auto critical ability that can top 5k damage easily by any descently geared and skilled player with the potential to top 6-7k in the hands of geared good players and can come near 8-9k on ungeared players. I agree once geared the CAN top 5k. I am well geared and I hit equality or better geared people below 4k more often than I hit them above 5k

 

If coordinated spike teams can and do kill mutliple targets in about 1 gcd without much warning to the incoming burst its worth for the sake of fun gameplay to be looked at I've never seen this happen on any of my 5 50s all of which have 70+ valor (I've spent a lot time in WZs). Not saying that it doesn't happen but in all my time I haven't seen 3 or 4 smashers coordinated together. I don't think its unreasonable and unexpected that the rage tree and have it brought back inline with other burst classes How is a single smash burst? Are you again assuming all smashes hit for 7k? Deception for instance chains 2 5k hits. That is burst. Burst is Pyro Thermal Det + Explosive Dart + RS hitting for 11k-14k at once . Its been mentioned as on that list. How that is done is up to the developers. Saying its fine is ignoring the fact that it is being reviewed.

 

What I would think as a reasonable solution would be to adjust the skill dominate. Max out the critical to be like recklessnesses 60%. Infact make it identical to recklessness with 2 (possible 3 with gear) charges. a one trick pony class that has a 40% chance to hit for 2k or under is a dead class, especially when the ability is on a 10-12sec cool down

 

At the very least this would force you to have some mods and enhancements into providing additional critical and thus balance out the smash dps over time. rage/focus cannot ignore crit, anyone who does will have no sustained DPS. Surge only focused gear means one missed smash would create meaningless DPS for 20-28 seconds, that is, when smash is back up This wouldn't be a huge change but something that reduced the AOE effectiveness. It would limit the smash critical to 2 victims or on a single target give you a critical force scream.

 

Since ravage is weapons damage it would not be impacted. non issue with rage

 

or

 

Just limit the critical hits that dominate delivers to 2 opponents what mechanic would be used to pick the two targets. I just happen to believe its easier for the developers to use recklessness and charges because its already in game and works. (SEE Assassin using recklessness then discharge). Even if it means they might get more critical hits on force scream.

 

If you claim it only hits 2 people most times cap the amount of critical hits it delivers to 2 opponents no need to twist what I said. People who PvP and stand on top of each other have bigger problems than smash. 8 sec AOE mezz.... You'd probably oppose that too though.

 

Only because it's a monday...

[AMKSED]

I wear just above 1200 expertise on my Sage and Jiraya sweeps me for about 7.2k. That's just with the Vindicator's 4 set bonus and not inspiration or the expertise buff afaik.

 

There's another Focus Guardian, Allcard, that hits me for 7k+ regularly too. Both of them have over 700 bonus damage.

 

Get a video of it. And show your gear and his.

[UGLYMRJ]

Oh it did, and does often.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't happen...

 

I'm saying it doesn't happen often.

[CharterMonkKent]

I wear just above 1200 expertise on my Sage and Jiraya sweeps me for about 7.2k. That's just with the Vindicator's 4 set bonus and not inspiration or the expertise buff afaik.

 

There's another Focus Guardian, Allcard, that hits me for 7k+ regularly too. Both of them have over 700 bonus damage.

 

Jiraya does hit hard. But he is BiS and not indicative of the entire player base.

 

We all need to stop asking to nerf classes because .1% are BiS.

[robegan]

As an under-geared sage healer, I feel the double or triple lolsmash quite frequently (many times they all hit for 7K+, or at least enough to take me from 100% health to 0%). It does suck to be on the receiving end, but even if that were unavailable to them, they'd do something else. My other favorite is being force choked by a Jugg (with my cc/stun breaks on cd), while the other two use Ravage.

 

As much as it sucks, it's unrealistic to think I'd survive for long against any double or triple attack like that, regardless of class.

[CharterMonkKent]

As an under-geared sage healer, I feel the double or triple lolsmash quite frequently (many times they all hit for 7K+, or at least enough to take me from 100% health to 0%). It does suck to be on the receiving end, but even if that were unavailable to them, they'd do something else. My other favorite is being force choked by a Jugg (with my cc/stun breaks on cd), while the other two use Ravage.

 

As much as it sucks, it's unrealistic to think I'd survive for long against any double or triple attack like that, regardless of class.

 

Thank you for bringing reality to this thread. The best way to stop me when I'm on my jugg? Same way as when I'm on my oper/sorc/sniper/pt.

 

Isolate + 4 sec stun = dead any class

[AMKSED]

Thank you for bringing reality to this thread. The best way to stop me when I'm on my jugg? Same way as when I'm on my oper/sorc/sniper/pt.

 

Isolate + 4 sec stun = dead any class

 

So when 3 people attack you, you die? That is complete BS and should not happen at all.

[CharterMonkKent]

So when 3 people attack you, you die? That is complete BS and should not happen at all.

 

When you have a 3 on 1 you don't die?

 

edited because I realize my sarcasm to your sarcasm was too light haha

Edited November 26, 2012 by CharterMonkKent

[Safgril]

Should rage/focus be complaining when smash hits for under 4k?

 

Reality check. My smash hits between 2.9k-6.7k. There are so many factors that decide on where the hit will fall in that scale. On top of that there are a number of abilities in game that make smash "hit" for zero damage.

 

Out of all main dps tree attacks in this game, smash is one of the easiest to negate/avoid/reduce.

 

If you got hit for 7K. there was a combination of debuffs/buffs/CDs/gear imbalance. And no saying "I'm in full WH", WH is by no means the best gear in pvp. Like most classes, with rage/focus there is a huge gap between WH and BiS.

 

 

LOL on my level 40 man... i avg.. 3.2k on my sweeps. you mean to tell me you do less as a 50? and i am talking about PVP... since we are in PVP forums... i really dont care about PVE. again... let me point out to you... it is AOE...

 

if this was a single target skill that reached up to 7k.. i would have no problem. But this is an AOE... nobody should be doing damage on avg 5k and up to 6k and 7k on large crits for an AOE...

 

point me one other class that does an AOE that powerful... then lets talk. till then you are blowing smoke up your own behind.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Safgril