Annihilation and Carnage PvE Basics

[Omophorus]

Once you hit 50, assuming you're doing PvE; you can choose to either do Annihilation or Carnage. Carnage is much easier, and for the average player you will achieve a higher DPS with that spec. Annihilation *in theory* is the highest DPS spec in the game, with a cap at 2554 dps; but as far as I know there have been very few parses in the spec exceeding 2100. Personally, I played as Annihilation for a long time, and can do more damage in that spec but I use carnage for raiding as its better for the current contents needs for burst damage, and having my annihilator stacks fall off on some fights hugely impacted my deeps in Anni.

 

This is the real kicker. I love Anni, and on a dummy I can match or exceed my Carnage numbers (especially with a Pulverize proc on the first Annihilate) without a lot of trouble.

 

However, current content design is much more focused on repeated burst phases rather than sustained and unbroken uptime. As soon as Annihilator stacks fall off, you're boned as Anni, and they certainly will on most of the more challenging encounters in the game due to baked-in down time.

 

About half of Carnage's total DPS (depending on the encounter) is compacted into Gore windows, and the spec has 2-3 GCDs of wind-up at most (versus 22.5s or 15 GCDs for Annihilation to reach max sustained DPS once Annihilator stacks fall off) to be able to punch out big, consistent DPS. As such, it can more easily cope with mechanics that break uptime, and apply serious burst almost on-demand. On the downside, the theoretical potential is lower and the DPS outside of Gore windows is nothing special, so interrupted Gores or delayed Gores are brutally punishing.

 

I'm a bit of a weirdo in that I actually find Anni easier to play, but the resource management is second nature to me and I make fewer mistakes than I do on Carnage. I semi-frequently get too aggressive maintaining DPS between Gore windows and occasionally find myself either Rage starved or hoping to proc Blood Frenzy off Ravage without Massacre buff. In practice the impact isn't that big, but I get annoyed even by small mistakes and I find Anni more forgiving. Then again, I think I'm the only one and nearly everyone else finds Carnage substantially easier.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Omophorus

[IAmViiOLENT]

This is the real kicker. I love Anni, and on a dummy I can match or exceed my Carnage numbers (especially with a Pulverize proc on the first Annihilate) without a lot of trouble.

 

However, current content design is much more focused on repeated burst phases rather than sustained and unbroken uptime. As soon as Annihilator stacks fall off, you're boned as Anni, and they certainly will on most of the more challenging encounters in the game due to baked-in down time.

 

About half of Carnage's total DPS (depending on the encounter) is compacted into Gore windows, and the spec has 2-3 GCDs of wind-up at most (versus 22.5s or 15 GCDs for Annihilation to reach max sustained DPS once Annihilator stacks fall off) to be able to punch out big, consistent DPS. As such, it can more easily cope with mechanics that break uptime, and apply serious burst almost on-demand. On the downside, the theoretical potential is lower and the DPS outside of Gore windows is nothing special, so interrupted Gores or delayed Gores are brutally punishing.

 

I'm a bit of a weirdo in that I actually find Anni easier to play, but the resource management is second nature to me and I make fewer mistakes than I do on Carnage. I semi-frequently get too aggressive maintaining DPS between Gore windows and occasionally find myself either Rage starved or hoping to proc Blood Frenzy off Ravage without Massacre buff. In practice the impact isn't that big, but I get annoyed even by small mistakes and I find Anni more forgiving. Then again, I think I'm the only one and nearly everyone else finds Carnage substantially easier.

 

I agree, personally I love anni; but during some raids its just just much too difficult to maintain correctly and carnage ends up pulling ahead due to it just have next to no windup and fitting half its damage into 4.5s windows :/

On older content though, I'll run anni just for giggles and absolutely demolish damage. Love it

[Omophorus]

I agree, personally I love anni; but during some raids its just just much too difficult to maintain correctly and carnage ends up pulling ahead due to it just have next to no windup and fitting half its damage into 4.5s windows :/

On older content though, I'll run anni just for giggles and absolutely demolish damage. Love it

 

Oh god KP. I love KP. Unbroken uptime on everything, roflstomp all the things with Annihilation (or get simply absurd peak DPS on Fabricator with Carnage).

 

There are a couple fights in EC and TFB where Anni does well, but the only non-trivial one is Dread Guards in TFB HM, and requires a lightning storm strategy tailored to keep you on Heirad instead of running somewhere else. I am mostly raid tanking now, but I want a chance to DPS that fight again as Anni.

[BlznSmri]

I enjoy Anni well enough it's a good spec to start out on because it only gets resource tricky if you get too many Pulverize procs or use Vicious Slash one too many times. It was kinda fun getting back into the spec the other night when I decided to play around with it again, did about 100 dps less and I do in Combat/ Carnage but I'm going to attribute that to only having like 94% accuracy in the gear I was using.

 

That said, I stick with Combat/ Carnage because of things like what happened at the 50 second mark of the 21:02:21 - 21:04:15 (kephass the undying) fight.

Edited January 6, 2013 by BlznSmri

[Omophorus]

I enjoy Anni well enough it's a good spec to start out on because it only gets resource tricky if you get too many Pulverize procs or use Vicious Slash one too many times. It was kinda fun getting back into the spec the other night when I decided to play around with it again, did about 100 dps less and I do in Combat/ Carnage but I'm going to attribute that to only having like 94% accuracy in the gear I was using.

 

That said, I stick with Combat/ Carnage because of things like what happened at the 50 second mark of the 21:02:21 - 21:04:15 (kephass the undying) fight.

 

KtU is tailor-made for Carnage though.

 

Field respec is a must have for Marauder, and it only takes 3 gear swaps to min/max both Anni and Carnage, so no reason you can't switch based on the fight. No one here would argue that newer content favors Carnage. It's why nearly all the top progression Marauders run the spec.

 

It would be nice if there were more opportunities to swap specs based on boss (how about a boss where Rage is actually useful?), that's all any Anni fan is saying. Having to be good at all 3 specs would quickly separate the men from the boys.

[BlznSmri]

KtU is tailor-made for Carnage though.

 

Oh I know. That's why I like it though lol, still the highest spike I've seen yet.

 

Field respec is a must have for Marauder, and it only takes 3 gear swaps to min/max both Anni and Carnage, so no reason you can't switch based on the fight. No one here would argue that newer content favors Carnage. It's why nearly all the top progression Marauders run the spec.

 

It would be nice if there were more opportunities to swap specs based on boss (how about a boss where Rage is actually useful?), that's all any Anni fan is saying. Having to be good at all 3 specs would quickly separate the men from the boys.

 

My issue with not being able to switch between Watchmen/ Anni and Combat/ Carnage off the fly is that I don't have those three pieces of gear required just yet. I rarely get to raid on my Sentinel.

 

But for fights that Rage is actually useful, well, off the top of my head there's only the Trandoshan swarm phase of NiM EC and Add Duty for The Writhing Horror in TFB. Otherwise, Rage just makes trash lulzy and that's part of the reason why I don't include it in either of my guides.

[IAmViiOLENT]

Oh I know. That's why I like it though lol, still the highest spike I've seen yet.

 

 

 

My issue with not being able to switch between Watchmen/ Anni and Combat/ Carnage off the fly is that I don't have those three pieces of gear required just yet. I rarely get to raid on my Sentinel.

 

But for fights that Rage is actually useful, well, off the top of my head there's only the Trandoshan swarm phase of NiM EC and Add Duty for The Writhing Horror in TFB. Otherwise, Rage just makes trash lulzy and that's part of the reason why I don't include it in either of my guides.

 

surprisingly, I switch my spec practically per boss. I even ran rage on kephess nim once for giggles when I was the DPS on add duty that week. Speaking of Karagga, Someone needs to beat my 8m HM/SM records now! I'm the highest mara/sent on both of them = someone needs to beat them so I have a better dummy score to try and reach LOL. That fight is such a joke.

 

Next time you guys are in KP with a really high DPS raid group, do what we did this week and kill Jarg before anyone besides the tank touches Sorno. Absolutely hilarious, took us 2 minutes.

[arkitip]

Toss me in as another person that thinks Annihilation is easier than Carnage. Carnage just has you operating in such strict timing windows to maximize its DPS (i.e. Scream at this EXACT moment or lose DPS). There's also the couple of buffs you're constantly watching in Blood Frenzy and the Massacre buff, and to a much lesser extent execute.

 

Annihilation has more to do "in the middle" than Carnage (yay Massacre spam!) but really just requires you to maintain enough Rage to keep Annihilator stacks going IMO, and those have a longer window to work within than anything in the Carnage spec. It has you watching Rupture to make sure not to override it but otherwise Charge and Deadly Saber share the same CD so that's really not something you have to pay much attention to.

 

You can be running a 2100 parse in Carnage only to delay a Gore, not have the proper amount of Rage during a Gore window, etc. and watch that parse drop to 1950 and never be able to recover from there.

 

 

Of course if you really want easy, just play Rage. It's so much different from managing what Shockwave abilities to use in what order on a Jugg and then playing a Marauder and barely having a chance to use a Shockwave builder besides Berserk because you build 30 Fury so quickly.

Edited January 6, 2013 by arkitip

[BlznSmri]

Bump.

[DarkWingedEagle]

Thanks I've been looking for a good guide for mars and this has made a lot of sense and helped a lot . I used to only run carnage then some guildies convinced me to switch to annihilation and I did do better on the dummies and had never really thought about some of these things . So thanks a lot everyone Edited January 21, 2013 by DarkWingedEagle
Spelling

[Omophorus]

Thanks I've been looking for a good guide for mars and this has made a lot of sense and helped a lot . I used to only run carnage then some guildies convinced me to switch to annihilation and I did do better on the dummies and had never really thought about some of these things . So thanks a lot everyone

 

Doing better on a dummy doesn't necessarily correlate with doing better in actual content.

 

Just sayin'.

[Saferai]

Doing better on a dummy doesn't necessarily correlate with doing better in actual content.

 

Just sayin'.

 

This is one thing that seems to be seriously overlooked now a days, carnage may parse higher on an operations dummy, but is scales worse with an arp debuff than annih does, scales much worse sub 30% than annih does ect. The different between specs on current fights is also grossly over exaggerated recently as well, a brief glimpse at the rankings on torparse will show you that both specs are virtually equally represented across the boards on all fights. Often your raid comp and strat make more of a difference on whether a fight favors one spec over the other than the fight mechanics themselves do.

[BlznSmri]

This is one thing that seems to be seriously overlooked now a days, carnage may parse higher on an operations dummy, but is scales worse with an arp debuff than annih does, scales much worse sub 30% than annih does ect. The different between specs on current fights is also grossly over exaggerated recently as well, a brief glimpse at the rankings on torparse will show you that both specs are virtually equally represented across the boards on all fights. Often your raid comp and strat make more of a difference on whether a fight favors one spec over the other than the fight mechanics themselves do.

 

The only true benefit Carnage has over Annihilation is that Carnage has practically no "Ramp up" time to be doing their max DPS whereas Annihilation requires something like 23 seconds to get all three stacks of Annihilate up (being their 2nd or 3rd most damaging ability)/

[Omophorus]

This is one thing that seems to be seriously overlooked now a days, carnage may parse higher on an operations dummy, but is scales worse with an arp debuff than annih does, scales much worse sub 30% than annih does ect. The different between specs on current fights is also grossly over exaggerated recently as well, a brief glimpse at the rankings on torparse will show you that both specs are virtually equally represented across the boards on all fights. Often your raid comp and strat make more of a difference on whether a fight favors one spec over the other than the fight mechanics themselves do.

 

I do want to point out that Carnage has theoretically *lower* Ops dummy numbers than Annihilation if both are played optimally. You just see more big e-peen waggler Carnage parses because they're easier to extract (get a massive relic/adrenal/BT boosted Gore window early and a 5-7 minute parse is lookin' rosy).

 

Also...

 

The difference in scaling with ArPen is extremely minor. By comparison, slightly more of Carnage's damage is irrespective of external ArPen, but the delta is not very large. 45-50% of Carnage's damage comes from Gore windows, 35-45% of Annihilation's damage comes from bleeds. Even in the best case scenario, total DPS on the Annihilation side only improves a couple percentage points relative to Carnage.

 

Not sure how sub-30% scaling is any different either. Neither talent tree gains explicit "when target is at low HP" buffs, and both are equally able to use Vicious Throw more or less to the CD. It can, and should, be included in every other Gore window, and the extra damage obtained there should offset any slight delays in use. It's a wash.

 

Where you are dead on is that group composition and tactics are the biggest deciding factor. The reason Carnage has gotten so popular is that you don't have to go out of your way to build your entire strategy around a Marauder. It works well with any group composition and is far more fault tolerant due to its lack of ramp up.

 

That said, there are certain fights where Annihilation just isn't optimal (Z&T, Warlord Kephess, Operator IX, Kephess the Undying, Terror From Beyond) even if it is quite workable. In all of those fights, it is very likely that Annihilator stacks will fall off regardless of tactics, and on-demand burst is hugely useful.

 

On top of all of that, there's the reality that an "ideal" Ops group, with 4 very strong, mostly even DPS aren't going to produce absurd DPS numbers. Everyone will have very good numbers, but not chart toppers, simply because everything will die too fast and mechanics will become the limiting factor for each DPS' ability to approach ideal play.

[IAmViiOLENT]

I do want to point out that Carnage has theoretically *lower* Ops dummy numbers than Annihilation if both are played optimally. You just see more big e-peen waggler Carnage parses because they're easier to extract (get a massive relic/adrenal/BT boosted Gore window early and a 5-7 minute parse is lookin' rosy).

 

Also...

 

The difference in scaling with ArPen is extremely minor. By comparison, slightly more of Carnage's damage is irrespective of external ArPen, but the delta is not very large. 45-50% of Carnage's damage comes from Gore windows, 35-45% of Annihilation's damage comes from bleeds. Even in the best case scenario, total DPS on the Annihilation side only improves a couple percentage points relative to Carnage.

 

Not sure how sub-30% scaling is any different either. Neither talent tree gains explicit "when target is at low HP" buffs, and both are equally able to use Vicious Throw more or less to the CD. It can, and should, be included in every other Gore window, and the extra damage obtained there should offset any slight delays in use. It's a wash.

 

Where you are dead on is that group composition and tactics are the biggest deciding factor. The reason Carnage has gotten so popular is that you don't have to go out of your way to build your entire strategy around a Marauder. It works well with any group composition and is far more fault tolerant due to its lack of ramp up.

 

That said, there are certain fights where Annihilation just isn't optimal (Z&T, Warlord Kephess, Operator IX, Kephess the Undying, Terror From Beyond) even if it is quite workable. In all of those fights, it is very likely that Annihilator stacks will fall off regardless of tactics, and on-demand burst is hugely useful.

 

On top of all of that, there's the reality that an "ideal" Ops group, with 4 very strong, mostly even DPS aren't going to produce absurd DPS numbers. Everyone will have very good numbers, but not chart toppers, simply because everything will die too fast and mechanics will become the limiting factor for each DPS' ability to approach ideal play.

 

This is exactly it, people on my server keep asking me why I run annihilation so often; because not only do I find it to be a funner spec, its more damage. A lot more. Carnage however, has bettter synergies with the current raid content, so for most fights I do run that. The other real problem with annihilation is that even though carnage has the higher initial burst, it evens out to the 2.1k-2.2k range much much quicker than annihilation. Its not uncommon in annhilation to be sitting at some ridiculously high numbers 30s in and that can cause a headache for a tank.

[Saferai]

I do want to point out that Carnage has theoretically *lower* Ops dummy numbers than Annihilation if both are played optimally. You just see more big e-peen waggler Carnage parses because they're easier to extract (get a massive relic/adrenal/BT boosted Gore window early and a 5-7 minute parse is lookin' rosy).

 

Also...

 

The difference in scaling with ArPen is extremely minor. By comparison, slightly more of Carnage's damage is irrespective of external ArPen, but the delta is not very large. 45-50% of Carnage's damage comes from Gore windows, 35-45% of Annihilation's damage comes from bleeds. Even in the best case scenario, total DPS on the Annihilation side only improves a couple percentage points relative to Carnage.

 

Not sure how sub-30% scaling is any different either. Neither talent tree gains explicit "when target is at low HP" buffs, and both are equally able to use Vicious Throw more or less to the CD. It can, and should, be included in every other Gore window, and the extra damage obtained there should offset any slight delays in use. It's a wash.

 

Where you are dead on is that group composition and tactics are the biggest deciding factor. The reason Carnage has gotten so popular is that you don't have to go out of your way to build your entire strategy around a Marauder. It works well with any group composition and is far more fault tolerant due to its lack of ramp up.

 

That said, there are certain fights where Annihilation just isn't optimal (Z&T, Warlord Kephess, Operator IX, Kephess the Undying, Terror From Beyond) even if it is quite workable. In all of those fights, it is very likely that Annihilator stacks will fall off regardless of tactics, and on-demand burst is hugely useful.

 

On top of all of that, there's the reality that an "ideal" Ops group, with 4 very strong, mostly even DPS aren't going to produce absurd DPS numbers. Everyone will have very good numbers, but not chart toppers, simply because everything will die too fast and mechanics will become the limiting factor for each DPS' ability to approach ideal play.

 

Your metrics seem someone off from mine, my carnage parses show 49-54% of carnage's dps coming during gore windows, likewise I've never seen bleed damage coming in over 40% in the presence of an arp debuff. The scaling is still minor admittedly, but most scaling factors are.

 

Carnage can not use VT on cooldown without sacrificing either rage neutrality or massacre buff uptime and holds the additional weakness of VT not being able to proc ataru strikes. Whilst annih uses VT much more in line with on cooldown, takes a smaller sacrifice of subbing VT for VS and the additional benefit of VT not proccing DS and thus making rolling 3 stack DS more common.

 

As for annih having higher potential on the dummy, unrealized potential is just that, unrealized. The dissonance between the posted annihlation results and it's simmed #s point to the sim being unrealistic, until I start seeing consistant 2150s out of annih that aren't all dressed up with resource preloading, exotech stims/adrenals and double BTs on 5min 15sec parses I have a hard time stomaching the 2550 sim results as gospel, the gap is just too wide.

[planet_J]

Honestly...I could see someone hitting 2300 with annihilation and bloodthirst if they nailed it fully buffed. The thing is...it would be tight...you'd have to have bleeds up almost 100% and you could never miss 3 stacks of deadly saber. You would have to work in your berserk on the spot and use your valorous call equivalent on cooldown with bleeds up. With the right timing and perfect execution it's very doable. I don't think anyone has gotten to the point where they have perfected "killing a dummy" so to speak.

[IAmViiOLENT]

Honestly...I could see someone hitting 2300 with annihilation and bloodthirst if they nailed it fully buffed. The thing is...it would be tight...you'd have to have bleeds up almost 100% and you could never miss 3 stacks of deadly saber. You would have to work in your berserk on the spot and use your valorous call equivalent on cooldown with bleeds up. With the right timing and perfect execution it's very doable. I don't think anyone has gotten to the point where they have perfected "killing a dummy" so to speak.

 

Yeah, Realistically I can see someone doing 2.3k in anni if they were perfect. Even though its simmed to do 2550 (which is sickening), I've never been able to maintain 2.5k for longer than 3 minutes, even the smallest mistake or gcd slip will drop you so far back down to normal. 2.5k just seems freakish.

[Saferai]

Yeah, Realistically I can see someone doing 2.3k in anni if they were perfect. Even though its simmed to do 2550 (which is sickening), I've never been able to maintain 2.5k for longer than 3 minutes, even the smallest mistake or gcd slip will drop you so far back down to normal. 2.5k just seems freakish.

 

Well someone hit 2288 in a 5 min 30 sec log, but it is also resource preloaded both fury and rage and it's double BT on a 5min 30sec parse, kinda stacked in comparison to a cold start 5 min sim would be. Oddly he also uses double EWH relics as well. Sadly it's in german so I can only make a vague analysis of it, but someone mentioned his min damage on annihlate is all wonky, on the time specified log it shows 4800 on the non time specified log it show 0, not really sure what to make of that, the log itself shows plenty of normative ranges both mh and oh. Torparse tanking maybe?

 

Frankly all this wishy washy hold hands and hope crap really isn't my style, OPFOTM could you post the sim you are referring to as well as the action priority list it is using? That would be a good first step on looking at where our missing 300+ dps has gone I think. Heck it would probably be useful to have a couple up to date sims posted in the first post somewhere.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Saferai

[IAmViiOLENT]

Well someone hit 2288 in a 5 min 30 sec log, but it is also resource preloaded both fury and rage and it's double BT on a 5min 30sec parse, kinda stacked in comparison to a cold start 5 min sim would be. Oddly he also uses double EWH relics as well. Sadly it's in german so I can only make a vague analysis of it, but someone mentioned his min damage on annihlate is all wonky, on the time specified log it shows 4800 on the non time specified log it show 0, not really sure what to make of that, the log itself shows plenty of normative ranges both mh and oh. Torparse tanking maybe?

 

Frankly all this wishy washy hold hands and hope crap really isn't my style, OPFOTM could you post the sim you are referring to as well as the action priority list it is using? That would be a good first step on looking at where our missing 300+ dps has gone I think. Heck it would probably be useful to have a couple up to date sims posted in the first post somewhere.

 

Search up Keetsune's sim. It uses APM and amount of each ability used over a certain amount of time to determine DPS. Also, LucifelB's sim is up to date, but does not have a latency option.

 

No matter what sim you use, if you have a 0ms ping they all show approximately the same value. 2550ish. Putting it down to a 100ms or so latency does seem to make it more representative of the outer reaches of an actual players skill level.

 

Soon as you add any latency, you can see it start dropping by a ridiculous amount so I can definitely believe that the reason no one is getting close to 2.5k over 5m30+ is because we dont have 0ms and perfect perfect reflexes

 

Also, if you're an anni mara/watchmen sent, I just did the testing myself. Using the 4 set vindicator WH armorings over my denova armorings is a 3-5% global increase practically once you learn how to time it up with annihilates or ravages or berserks. Kinda depressing that I'm back to having PvP gear as my BiS for PvE.

Edited January 23, 2013 by IAmViiOLENT

[Saferai]

I think I figured out why there is such are large discrepancy between the sim #s you are seeing and the ingame numbers. The sim asks from MH-OH Min/Max damage which can be found on the tooltip of your weapons, you are entering the Primary/Secondary damage ranges instead, inflating the numbers quite signifigantly.

 

Just comparing the expected damage ranges the sim gives when using the primary/secondary they are much higher than in game where as using the MH/OH damage info matches up with the ingame values identically. Kinda throws up a bit of a red flag. The sim thread over at sithwarrior.com has screenshots as examples of the functions of the sim, all of which use MH/OH min/max damage. Without contacting the authors I cannot be sure, but this was the only way I was able to reproduce your results.

 

Using the values of EWH relics, (since I don't think these model DG relics), I get a maximum outputs in the range of 2120-2130 using the MH/OH damage ranges. As we are seeing topend parses in the 2150-2200 range, usually preloaded to open with zerk+BT and usually 5min 15sec to accomidate two BTs, this I feel is a more realistic output.

 

*Edit: Checked with lucifelB's sheet, which is what I have always used as well and got the same results, only using primary/secondary damage yielded the 2500+ results, and yielded erroneous damage ranges for all abilities. Using MH/OH vales yielded a more moderate 2170 as well as the damage ranges that matched the ingame tooltips.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Saferai

[IAmViiOLENT]

I think I figured out why there is such are large discrepancy between the sim #s you are seeing and the ingame numbers. The sim asks from MH-OH Min/Max damage which can be found on the tooltip of your weapons, you are entering the Primary/Secondary damage ranges instead, inflating the numbers quite signifigantly.

 

Just comparing the expected damage ranges the sim gives when using the primary/secondary they are much higher than in game where as using the MH/OH damage info matches up with the ingame values identically. Kinda throws up a bit of a red flag. The sim thread over at sithwarrior.com has screenshots as examples of the functions of the sim, all of which use MH/OH min/max damage. Without contacting the authors I cannot be sure, but this was the only way I was able to reproduce your results.

 

Using the values of EWH relics, (since I don't think these model DG relics), I get a maximum outputs in the range of 2120-2130 using the MH/OH damage ranges. As we are seeing topend parses in the 2150-2200 range, usually preloaded to open with zerk+BT and usually 5min 15sec to accomidate two BTs, this I feel is a more realistic output.

 

*Edit: Checked with lucifelB's sheet, which is what I have always used as well and got the same results, only using primary/secondary damage yielded the 2500+ results, and yielded erroneous damage ranges for all abilities. Using MH/OH vales yielded a more moderate 2170 as well as the damage ranges that matched the ingame tooltips.

 

Hmmm, for annihilation you say?

This still doesn't seem quite right, as there is a higher potential DPS than the higher parses that get thrown around. 2.3k is by and far not out of the realm of possibility. 2170 seems moderately low compared to even damage that I've cranked out on bosses like DT where its practically a dummy.

 

EDIT: using this build http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/17af74fc-464a-4d67-9a2c-4cea52ee1f0e LucifelB's Spreadsheet returned a value of 2213 dps. This is what i believe is the BiS that the sim will accept. (You need to use two EWH Static Power Relics for the sim unfortunately, both of which account for significantly less DPS than the DG relics, particularly the proc relic.)

 

The true BiS is actually - x4 EWH Vindicator Set Bonus Armorings, 300 Surge, 300 Accuracy, 196 Crit, 964 power, DG Relic of Elemental Transcendence, and DG Relic of Boundless Ages.

 

Obviously, we don't have a sim for those items, but knowing the approximate values of each of their returns, that still returns a number into the 2300's. Possibly, the 2400's.

 

And yes, you did read that right. Sadly, BW has made PvP items the BiS for mara annihilation spec with the vindicator 4 set bonus, it is a 3-5% global DPS increase over 4 regular Advanced Might Armoring 27s. I ran a few dozen tests on the set bonus, to make sure, and even during a raid fight its significantly more powerful :/

Edited January 24, 2013 by IAmViiOLENT

[Saferai]

Mind linking me the build of lucifelB's sheet you are using?

 

Because using that profile with EWH relics with the following unbuffed stats

 

2018 str

140 wp

1014 pwr

1346 force pwr

300 acc

240 crit

300 surge

 

336 MH min 505 MH max

336 OH min 505 OH max

 

+an exotech might stim, +128 str +52 pwr

 

I only get an expected output of 2159.

 

All the spreadsheet values are at 0 latency, no arp debuff, cold start with no sub 30% phase and no aoe, and possibly no adrenals implemented so you can't really compare them to boss values, which can have a host of other factors involved.

 

Again I'll I am seeing is gross overestimation of what people think could be done, all evidence puts us 4 months into a tier when most ppl were best in slot by the 3rd week and have had plenty of time to parse. Yet no where do you look and see average results anywhere near 2300+ I'm very confident in my own and a host of other players abilities to push the class/spec within 50 dps of the spreadsheet and even surpass it should the RNG stars align.

 

The only log over 2200 is grossly stacked, (napkin math shows that his 2nd BT alone accounts for 88 dps) and he additionally built 30 fury / 6+ rage prior to the pull and possibly juyo stacks. The crit rating on the log clearly illustrates it is at the top end of RNG in at least 1 aspect, and possibly implies top end RNG on rupture resets as well. Given these factors the log is what you would expect, sims do not output the top end possibility for when the stars align, they give you a realistic statistical avg given the data you feed it. When you purposely stack factors to exaggerate your dps and then parse for hours you should see logs over the spreadsheets output.

 

If you were to alter the spreadsheet to account for all the factors players use that it doesn't you might see 2250-2300 values, but 2400? Not even close and until someone actually puts up some #s like that unarp debuffed, it's vaporware. Too often people mistake their claims without evidence for substance lately, show us the logs or pipe down imo. It is in the communities best interest to care more about what people have done, than what they think / claim they can do.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Saferai

[Saferai]

Hmmm, for annihilation you say?

The true BiS is actually - x4 EWH Vindicator Set Bonus Armorings, 300 Surge, 300 Accuracy, 196 Crit, 964 power, DG Relic of Elemental Transcendence, and DG Relic of Boundless Ages.

 

Obviously, we don't have a sim for those items, but knowing the approximate values of each of their returns, that still returns a number into the 2300's. Possibly, the 2400's.

 

And yes, you did read that right. Sadly, BW has made PvP items the BiS for mara annihilation spec with the vindicator 4 set bonus, it is a 3-5% global DPS increase over 4 regular Advanced Might Armoring 27s. I ran a few dozen tests on the set bonus, to make sure, and even during a raid fight its significantly more powerful :/

 

Inc more math.

 

So we can use the spreadsheet and some basic math to get a good estimation of the difference between 4 piece vindicators and 4 might 27 armorings. Each armoring sacrifices 33 str over a might 27 for a loss of 132.

 

Using the values in my post above this one, that brings base str down to 1886, bringing the spreadsheets output down to 2101 from 2159.

 

Next we calculate the flat % damage increase the set bonus provides. 5 sec buff uptime on a 12 second cooldown ability provides 5/12 = 0.417 or 41.6% uptime, the buff itself is a 10% increase so 0.417 * 0.1 = 0.0417 lets just be generous and say 4.2% here

 

Now we take that 4.2% and add it into the output of 2101 dps. 2101 * 0.042 +2101 = rounded 2189 dps

 

Now just compare the final vindicators value vs the original might armoring value, 2189 / 2159 = 1.014 rounded up or an overall increase of 1.4%

 

This doesn't factor in that damage doesnt occur evenly, but any delay in use also drops the total estimated bonus of the vind set bonus. Nor does this model factor in the dps lost from both the 2 and 4 PVE setpiece bonus. Even rounding in the vind set bonus favor heavily it should account for a 2% increase by the #s, not 3-5%

 

That being said I can't see myself not getting this set bonus, the increased burst potential for both single target and AoE alone is well worth it on current encounters.

 

The DG Relics were mathed out over in the sage thread on sithwarrior.com as 31 dps over WH relics combined, the click relic at 10 dps and the ele proc relic at 21. EWH relics lower the gap slightly to 26-27 dps from what I can find.

 

Those 2 combined would yield an sim output of 2215, which is a nice little boost.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Saferai

[Okuy]

wish i was seeing parses.