A tought about luke and sidious

[khayyinx]

I see everywhere people saying that luke's the most powerfull force user ever followed by sidious.

I'll start with luke.

We first saw him in a new hope with almost 20 years and without any kind of training or knowledge about the force. When he meets obi wan his training begins, but it's very short and ineficient. Then he starts his training with yoda, which last long. So, in ROTJ he sort of know some force powers and have learned how to fight with a lightsaber. But at the end of the movie he no where near to be the most powerfull force user ever. Yes, he defeated an old and robot vader that couldn't kill his own son and with the help of his rage and love for his sister. Seconds later the emperor pwns him with lightning.

This is luke, the last of the jedi, a boy that have a lot of potential (son of the chosen one and all), but don't have enough information (jedi order is gone for a long time) and didn't trained well. Just to remember that in phantom menace, yoda says that the 10 years old anakin is TOO OLD to begin his training as a jedi, which seems to be very long a difficult and requires decades and decades to master.

Now, after the movies, which stops with a weak luke, we have the EU, which are some comic books showing luke as a freaking superman that can move in lightspeed, create wormholes etc. That's just ridiculous. One man couldn't become the best force user ever without any help, any kind of training or source of knowledge. Being the son of the chosen one is not enough to make him this super hero.

Now we have sidious, who COULD be one of the most powerfull force users ever, since he's very good with a lightsaber (fighted yoda) and had a lot of force knowledge and many years of training. At least he shows some of his powers in the movies. But i also wouldn't say he's the most powerfull one. There was a lot of siths and jedis over the history to be sure he's the best. And he only was ruler of the galaxy because of politics and cunning.

But even if we consider him as the best, we saw him die in ROTJ for an old vader THROWING HIM OVER A PIT!! He should have sensed what vader would do, that vade was coming back to light or AT LEAST USE THE FORCE TO HANG SOMEWHERE IN THE PIT!!! And don't say that's because he was old, he was old since phantom menace, and the force don't care for age or size.

 

Conclusion: Luke had a lot of potential that wasn't availed because there wasn't anyone to train him or help him develop his powers for good. He's not a weak jedi, but is far from the best. Sidious is way more powerful than luke, a very nice swordsman (lost only for mace) and very powerful force user (wins yoda) and COULD be the very best. COULD... (let's just remember that old republic sith and jedi have a LOT more fightning and experiences than movies that talked more than fight).

 

And people, please, PLEASE, stop saying things like "luke/sidious is the best, George Lucas himself says so" it doesn't matter!! George Lucas has contradicted himself a lot of times!! This is no argument!! We should measure power by feats not by someone that wrote the history saying that one is the best and that's canon!

 

Sorry for the long text and bad english. Just wanted to post my opinion.

[Aurbere]

I see everywhere people saying that luke's the most powerfull force user ever followed by sidious.

I'll start with luke.

We first saw him in a new hope with almost 20 years and without any kind of training or knowledge about the force. When he meets obi wan his training begins, but it's very short and ineficient. Then he starts his training with yoda, which last long. So, in ROTJ he sort of know some force powers and have learned how to fight with a lightsaber. But at the end of the movie he no where near to be the most powerfull force user ever. Yes, he defeated an old and robot vader that couldn't kill his own son and with the help of his rage and love for his sister. Seconds later the emperor pwns him with lightning.

This is luke, the last of the jedi, a boy that have a lot of potential (son of the chosen one and all), but don't have enough information (jedi order is gone for a long time) and didn't trained well. Just to remember that in phantom menace, yoda says that the 10 years old anakin is TOO OLD to begin his training as a jedi, which seems to be very long a difficult and requires decades and decades to master.

Now, after the movies, which stops with a weak luke, we have the EU, which are some comic books showing luke as a freaking superman that can move in lightspeed, create wormholes etc. That's just ridiculous. One man couldn't become the best force user ever without any help, any kind of training or source of knowledge. Being the son of the chosen one is not enough to make him this super hero.

Now we have sidious, who COULD be one of the most powerfull force users ever, since he's very good with a lightsaber (fighted yoda) and had a lot of force knowledge and many years of training. At least he shows some of his powers in the movies. But i also wouldn't say he's the most powerfull one. There was a lot of siths and jedis over the history to be sure he's the best. And he only was ruler of the galaxy because of politics and cunning.

But even if we consider him as the best, we saw him die in ROTJ for an old vader THROWING HIM OVER A PIT!! He should have sensed what vader would do, that vade was coming back to light or AT LEAST USE THE FORCE TO HANG SOMEWHERE IN THE PIT!!! And don't say that's because he was old, he was old since phantom menace, and the force don't care for age or size.

 

Conclusion: Luke had a lot of potential that wasn't availed because there wasn't anyone to train him or help him develop his powers for good. He's not a weak jedi, but is far from the best. Sidious is way more powerful than luke, a very nice swordsman (lost only for mace) and very powerful force user (wins yoda) and COULD be the very best. COULD... (let's just remember that old republic sith and jedi have a LOT more fightning and experiences than movies that talked more than fight).

 

And people, please, PLEASE, stop saying things like "luke/sidious is the best, George Lucas himself says so" it doesn't matter!! George Lucas has contradicted himself a lot of times!! This is no argument!! We should measure power by feats not by someone that wrote the history saying that one is the best and that's canon!

 

Sorry for the long text and bad english. Just wanted to post my opinion.

 

I'm going to stop you right there. Go to Luke's Wookiee page, scroll down to Powers and abilities. Same with Sidious and you will see why. You count Old Republic EU, but not Post-ROTJ EU. Can't really do that...

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'm going to stop you right there. Go to Luke's Wookiee page, scroll down to Powers and abilities. Same with Sidious and you will see why. You count Old Republic EU, but not Post-ROTJ EU. Can't really do that...

 

^ This.

[StarSquirrel]

You sir, if you are going to mention the EU in this conversation, should read it first.

 

Luke fights God-like force manifestation and beats her multiple times while crushing old-school Sith as an old man.

 

Sidious manipulates galactic politics as a hobby while tossing out force storms capable of leveling cities, for fun.

Edited November 6, 2012 by StarSquirrel

[Kilikaa]

Wow, way to overlook Luke's powers as he gets older. He IS the most powerful Jedi. As others have stated, if you mention the Old republic EU then you have to mention post ROTJ EU as well. Luke at 60 years old is very powerful, more than Anakin Skywalker could have been.

 

As for Palpatine...Look at his powers. That man was, by far, the most powerful Sith Lord in a very long time, probably ever. Please do research before making threads like this. You will save yourself some humiliation.

[Aurbere]

You talked about Sidious' death and how he died so easily, proving that he's weak.

 

This should prove you wrong: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=539574

[Beniboybling]

I don't think I need to argue on this thread, Aurbere seems to have cleaned up nicely.

[MasterMe]

Sorry dude, GL said that Luke IS the most powerful force user of all time. If you don't care, that's fine, but it's true.

 

Until Disney says otherwise, then what GL said still holds true as ultimate canon.

[Beniboybling]

Sorry dude, GL said that Luke IS the most powerful force user of all time. If you don't care, that's fine, but it's true.

 

Until Disney says otherwise, then what GL said still holds true as ultimate canon.

P.S It's canon for a reason.

[khayyinx]

Ok, what i meant was that it's impossible to luke to be that powerfull without any other master to teach him and the lack of information to know more about the force etc.

 

Just because GL says "luke is the most powerfull" it doesn't matter. He should prove it. I don't care if he's the creator and you guys also shouldn't.

 

I know the the "canon" says that he is. I'm not arguing otherwise, or else i'd be crazy. What i say is that HE SHOULDN'T. Actually, he COULDN'T. Yoda is a bad**s alien that lived 900 years and was trained in the jedi order. He became a jedi grandmaster and the besto of their order. To me he's the best. When coruscant was taken by the empire i doubt that they leaved any jedi record of their wisdom...

 

Stop following blindly what the writers says. Stop considering a comic book that portrays SW characters as GODS!! They are not like that in the movies. ROTS palpatine was very very strong and powerfull, but he can't create blackholes and take clone bodies. He just can't. If he could, he'd done that right away and would always be young.

 

It's ridiculous. The movie's luke/sidious are completely different from the super-heroes from comic books..

[Eillack]

Lol someone has only watched the movies...and not too closely it seems. Flawed thread is flawed.

[Aurbere]

Ok, what i meant was that it's impossible to luke to be that powerfull without any other master to teach him and the lack of information to know more about the force etc.

 

Just because GL says "luke is the most powerfull" it doesn't matter. He should prove it. I don't care if he's the creator and you guys also shouldn't.

 

I know the the "canon" says that he is. I'm not arguing otherwise, or else i'd be crazy. What i say is that HE SHOULDN'T. Actually, he COULDN'T. Yoda is a bad**s alien that lived 900 years and was trained in the jedi order. He became a jedi grandmaster and the besto of their order. To me he's the best. When coruscant was taken by the empire i doubt that they leaved any jedi record of their wisdom...

 

Stop following blindly what the writers says. Stop considering a comic book that portrays SW characters as GODS!! They are not like that in the movies. ROTS palpatine was very very strong and powerfull, but he can't create blackholes and take clone bodies. He just can't. If he could, he'd done that right away and would always be young.

 

It's ridiculous. The movie's luke/sidious are completely different from the super-heroes from comic books..

 

Actually Luke learns alot between the movies. He finds Obi-Wan Kenobi's journal and other personal effects, which had loads of Jedi information. He was also a natural at everything he did. Then after the movies, he finds very powerful holocrons, the Great Holocron, Telos Holocron, and I think the Asli Krimsan holocron. He had a wealth of information to learn from. Not only that he also had the same Force potential of his father THE CHOSEN ONE, which he realized. And Anakin could have been the most powerful being ever.

 

For Sidious. He had the knowledge of the entire line of Banite Sith at his command. With the Banite line of Sith, each new Sith was more powerful than the last. And Sidious was the culmination of the Banite Sith. The most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist. He became a nexus of the Dark Side. He could create new powers at will and mastered the powers that the Dark Side could give.

 

Seriously. You say that they haven't proved that they are the best, but they have. They have by a landslide.

 

The way I see it, you have four things you can do here.

 

1. Read Post-ROTJ EU

2. Trust G-Canon and C-canon

3. Go on the Wookiee and check these guys out

4. Ignore the facts

 

You can either trust me or ignore my words.

[Kilikaa]

Ok, what i meant was that it's impossible to luke to be that powerfull without any other master to teach him and the lack of information to know more about the force etc.

 

Just because GL says "luke is the most powerfull" it doesn't matter. He should prove it. I don't care if he's the creator and you guys also shouldn't.

 

I know the the "canon" says that he is. I'm not arguing otherwise, or else i'd be crazy. What i say is that HE SHOULDN'T. Actually, he COULDN'T. Yoda is a bad**s alien that lived 900 years and was trained in the jedi order. He became a jedi grandmaster and the besto of their order. To me he's the best. When coruscant was taken by the empire i doubt that they leaved any jedi record of their wisdom...

 

Stop following blindly what the writers says. Stop considering a comic book that portrays SW characters as GODS!! They are not like that in the movies. ROTS palpatine was very very strong and powerfull, but he can't create blackholes and take clone bodies. He just can't. If he could, he'd done that right away and would always be young.

 

It's ridiculous. The movie's luke/sidious are completely different from the super-heroes from comic books..

 

Luke IS that damn powerful, and not because Lucas says so. Luke learned a lot on his own. He traveled the galaxy looking for any and all records of the Jedi. He used that knowledge to train himself. He also learned from other Force users who were NOT Jedi.

 

Read up on Luke and Sidious. Don't go soley by the movies. Your first mistake was using the movies as your focal point. Luke is more powerful than Yoda because of his search for Force knowledge. Luke has proven he is the most powerful jedi ever. Sidious has also proven he is the most powerful Sith ever. Do your research.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Kilikaa

[khayyinx]

Ok, he found some holocrons full of information, but that's not the same as being trained by a master. If it was, we wouldn't have schools today, just books.

 

Also, the only advantage that luke has over yoda is his father, being the son of the chosen one. But, luke is human and live about 70 years, while yoda lived 900 of hard training from the jedi order! There's no way he could exceed yoda's power by his own in a few years from 0.

You're telling me that he has the potential of the chosen one and trained from 20 to 60/70 years basically alone from holocrons. Then why anakin, trained by a jedi master from the jedi order, frrom 10 to 23 and later from 23 to 46 years by the dark lord of the sith and wasn't even near his full potential. How could luke achieve this potential under the circunstances pointed?

 

As for sidious, i know that he's extremely powerfull, but he didn't used his power or fighting techniques a lot. They require a lot of training and should be constantly used to reach full potential...

[Necrosaro]

I think what the OP is saying that it seems odd and rather silly that the EU takes characters who weren't super amazing and suddenly makes them godlike. After a while the powers of characters like Luke and Sidious get to be ridiculous considering what they were shown to be able to do in the movies.

The OP isn't saying that the comics and the EU don't exist, he is just saying that the writers went way to far with the powers of these two characters to the point of just being silly.

[khayyinx]

I think what the OP is saying that it seems odd and rather silly that the EU takes characters who weren't super amazing and suddenly makes them godlike. After a while the powers of characters like Luke and Sidious get to be ridiculous considering what they were shown to be able to do in the movies.

The OP isn't saying that the comics and the EU don't exist, he is just saying that the writers went way to far with the powers of these two characters to the point of just being silly.

 

YES!!! You were the only one that understood. Maybe because of my bad english, i don't know...

 

This and that people should stop worshiping them like gods, that they just weren't before some writer just put in a book or comic that they can do wahtever they want...

[Aurbere]

Ok, he found some holocrons full of information, but that's not the same as being trained by a master. If it was, we wouldn't have schools today, just books.

 

Also, the only advantage that luke has over yoda is his father, being the son of the chosen one. But, luke is human and live about 70 years, while yoda lived 900 of hard training from the jedi order! There's no way he could exceed yoda's power by his own in a few years from 0.

You're telling me that he has the potential of the chosen one and trained from 20 to 60/70 years basically alone from holocrons. Then why anakin, trained by a jedi master from the jedi order, frrom 10 to 23 and later from 23 to 46 years by the dark lord of the sith and wasn't even near his full potential. How could luke achieve this potential under the circunstances pointed?

 

As for sidious, i know that he's extremely powerfull, but he didn't used his power or fighting techniques a lot. They require a lot of training and should be constantly used to reach full potential...

 

The holocrons have teachers inside of them. These teachers are called gate-keepers and give knowledge to those that seek it. They put those ready to learn on the path, providing information on how to use these abilities. Holocrons aren't just words, they are an extension of the will and knowledge of their creator. Luke found the most informative holocrons. The Great Holocron in particular had information from generations of Jedi. Luke technically had hundreds of teachers.

 

Yoda was very powerful. No doubt about that. But everyone has a certain peaking point. I believe Yoda could give the NJO guys a good fight, beat some of them, but there are others who could best Yoda in battle. 900 years of Jedi training afforded Yoda much knowledge and power, but it didn't make his power all encompassing.

 

Anakin didn't reach his potential because of his transformation to Darth Vader. In the Force and through his cybernetics. Had he stayed on the Jedi path, he would have achieved his potential.

[MasterMe]

Ok, what i meant was that it's impossible to luke to be that powerfull without any other master to teach him and the lack of information to know more about the force etc.

 

Just because GL says "luke is the most powerfull" it doesn't matter. He should prove it. I don't care if he's the creator and you guys also shouldn't.

 

I know the the "canon" says that he is. I'm not arguing otherwise, or else i'd be crazy. What i say is that HE SHOULDN'T. Actually, he COULDN'T. Yoda is a bad**s alien that lived 900 years and was trained in the jedi order. He became a jedi grandmaster and the besto of their order. To me he's the best. When coruscant was taken by the empire i doubt that they leaved any jedi record of their wisdom...

 

Stop following blindly what the writers says. Stop considering a comic book that portrays SW characters as GODS!! They are not like that in the movies. ROTS palpatine was very very strong and powerfull, but he can't create blackholes and take clone bodies. He just can't. If he could, he'd done that right away and would always be young.

 

It's ridiculous. The movie's luke/sidious are completely different from the super-heroes from comic books..

 

Alright I totally understand what you're saying.

 

I think what your problem is is that you are getting bad writing/character development confused with canon.

 

If you think that it's kinda odd for Luke and Sidious to be force gods or anything like that, then I agree. The movies just don't represent Luke as anything like that. In this since, you're right to say what you've said. The thing is, in the EU Luke becomes an extremely powerful. This is an odd change. You ARE right to think that this is poor writing/character development.

 

But there are 2 things that make Luke the best Jedi/Sith:

- EU after episode 6. He does things that just indicate he's the best.

- Lucas SAID that Luke is the most powerful being ever in Star Wars. You need to understand that Lucas's word is (or at least was) law.

 

So I agree that making Luke THAT powerful was a bad transistion and perhaps poor writing, but it happened. You make a decent point, but Luke is the most powerful being ever.

[Beniboybling]

Ok, what i meant was that it's impossible to luke to be that powerfull without any other master to teach him and the lack of information to know more about the force etc.

 

Just because GL says "luke is the most powerfull" it doesn't matter. He should prove it. I don't care if he's the creator and you guys also shouldn't.

 

I know the the "canon" says that he is. I'm not arguing otherwise, or else i'd be crazy. What i say is that HE SHOULDN'T. Actually, he COULDN'T. Yoda is a bad**s alien that lived 900 years and was trained in the jedi order. He became a jedi grandmaster and the besto of their order. To me he's the best. When coruscant was taken by the empire i doubt that they leaved any jedi record of their wisdom...

 

Stop following blindly what the writers says. Stop considering a comic book that portrays SW characters as GODS!! They are not like that in the movies. ROTS palpatine was very very strong and powerfull, but he can't create blackholes and take clone bodies. He just can't. If he could, he'd done that right away and would always be young.

 

It's ridiculous. The movie's luke/sidious are completely different from the super-heroes from comic books..

 

The fact is though, we didn't just read somewhere that he is the most powerful. Its obvious, now I don't know much about post-ROTJ Skywalker. But Wookiepedia tells me that Skywalker was incredibly gifted in lightsaber combat, picking up Form V just by dueling with Vader. His eventual form became a mix of Form III and Form IV he also gained skill in Ataru and Soresu. All by himself. In terms of Force powers, he had the Force potential of the Chosen One and showed great apitiude in the Force with little training. (e.g. when he blew up the Death Star). Among others powers he mastered were, Force speed, Force Jump, Force illusion, emerald lightining (a Jedi version of Force lightining), Tutaminis (to an extremely powerful extent), Force healing, Force stealth, shatterpoint (and extremely rare skill), Battle Meditation, lightning-rod, Fold space (basically teleportation), blood trail, Force Light and mnemotherapy. He was a master of telekinesis and also learned how to become a Force ghost and achieve Oneness (basically you become a temporary light side god).

 

I agree with you that the comics overpower characters. But we can't exactly make Skywalkers powers null and void. All these powers above are perfectly plausible and most are evident in the films. What's more just think, in the films Luke Skywalker managed to defeat Darth Vader, a Dark Lord of the Sith, with less than one year of informal training. Darth Vader had the 80% of Sidious' power, so this is by no means a small feat. No jedi in the history of the jedi could have acheived such a feat with so little training (please, name one). Whatsmore, he was the son of the Chosen One, who had the potential to become the most powerful force user ever. So it only seems logical that after the events of ROTJ events he would continue to hone his skills, from knowledge of holocrons, journals etcera and become the most powerful force user ever. Remember, the first Jedi had to start from scratch, so why can't Luke? You don't need a book to master the Force.

 

As for Sidious he was an absolute master of lightsaber combat and one of the greatest duelist of all time and a master of every lightsaber form and combat stance their is, classed as a Sith Swordmaster. Which puts him up there with the likes of Yoda, Mace Windu and Count Dooku. However it seems that killing 3 Jedi Masters on the Jedi High Council and among the most powerful of the Order in 5 seconds flat isn't enough proof for you, so I shall go on. (May I also add that he defeated Yoda, who you seem to think is the most powerful Jedi ever, so surely he is by default the most powerful sith?) In terms of Force powers, he was considered one of the Greatest Force users of all time. He was a master of force lighting, and could create lightning grenades. He was a master of Force Speed, Force Flight, Force rage, static barrier, foresight and Force stealth. He was also a master of Sith alchemy and magic. All of these powers are evident in the films and the books, (not the comics)

 

As you can see, merely by looking at the films and the most respectable EU sources (Darth Plageius, the novel. The Force Unleashed, the novel.) we can clearly see that Luke and Sidious are the most powerful Jedi and Sith respectively in the history of Force users - I beg you to differ.

[Wolfninjajedi]

The fact is though, we didn't just read somewhere that he is the most powerful. Its obvious, now I don't know much about post-ROTJ Skywalker. But Wookiepedia tells me that Skywalker was incredibly gifted in lightsaber combat, picking up Form V just by dueling with Vader. His eventual form became a mix of Form III and Form IV he also gained skill in Ataru and Soresu. All by himself. In terms of Force powers, he had the Force potential of the Chosen One and showed great apitiude in the Force with little training. (e.g. when he blew up the Death Star). Among others powers he mastered were, Force speed, Force Jump, Force illusion, emerald lightining (a Jedi version of Force lightining), Tutaminis (to an extremely powerful extent), Force healing, Force stealth, shatterpoint (and extremely rare skill), Battle Meditation, lightning-rod, Fold space (basically teleportation), blood trail, Force Light and mnemotherapy. He was a master of telekinesis and also learned how to become a Force ghost and achieve Oneness (basically you become a temporary light side god).

 

I agree with you that the comics overpower characters. But we can't exactly make Skywalkers powers null and void. All these powers above are perfectly plausible and most are evident in the films. What's more just think, in the films Luke Skywalker managed to defeat Darth Vader, a Dark Lord of the Sith, with less than one year of informal training. Darth Vader had the 80% of Sidious' power, so this is by no means a small feat. No jedi in the history of the jedi could have acheived such a feat with so little training (please, name one). Whatsmore, he was the son of the Chosen One, who had the potential to become the most powerful force user ever. So it only seems logical that after the events of ROTJ events he would continue to hone his skills, from knowledge of holocrons, journals etcera and become the most powerful force user ever. Remember, the first Jedi had to start from scratch, so why can't Luke? You don't need a book to master the Force.

 

As for Sidious he was an absolute master of lightsaber combat and one of the greatest duelist of all time and a master of every lightsaber form and combat stance their is, classed as a Sith Swordmaster. Which puts him up there with the likes of Yoda, Mace Windu and Count Dooku. However it seems that killing 3 Jedi Masters on the Jedi High Council and among the most powerful of the Order in 5 seconds flat isn't enough proof for you, so I shall go on. (May I also add that he defeated Yoda, who you seem to think is the most powerful Jedi ever, so surely he is by default the most powerful sith?) In terms of Force powers, he was considered one of the Greatest Force users of all time. He was a master of force lighting, and could create lightning grenades. He was a master of Force Speed, Force Flight, Force rage, static barrier, foresight and Force stealth. He was also a master of Sith alchemy and magic. All of these powers are evident in the films and the books, (not the comics)

 

As you can see, merely by looking at the films and the most respectable EU sources (Darth Plageius, the novel. The Force Unleashed, the novel.) we can clearly see that Luke and Sidious are the most powerful Jedi and Sith respectively in the history of Force users - I beg you to differ.

 

Well Luke only defeated Vader, cause Vader was conflicted. He later stated, that if he wasn't he would have been beaten. But regardless of that, Luke became a jedi knight in much less time that it took someone else a decade to do and whats more impressive is that Luke didn't have all the teachings of the Jedi Order he was mostly self taught. So the fact that he learned all of what he did, from the movies and of between the movies speaks volumes of just how quickly he learned things.

 

Anakin was the same way, both of them learned at a quick rate.