Ranked PvP

[bsbrad]

I think people are significantly exaggerating the tactical utility of a respec macro as anything but a QOL function, particularly in ranked. In any competitive match, if a DPS is going down while healed by two healers, the DPS is not going to be alive six or seven seconds later when a third healer would be available (after a period of helpelessness that would make the respeccer themselves acutely vulnerable and unresponsive to attacks); the DPS would be much better trying to offheal until the real healers can burst the DPS up. Regardless, I hope Bioware creates some kind of option to store specs, whether they added a cooldown to retrieve it or not. Switching specs every other warzone map is aggravating. .

 

Valya while I do appreciate your stance on this the fact being that there is a huge tactical advantage in respeccing. For instance, in Voidstar changing from dps to heals to defend is an enormous advantage when defending and vice versa. I have been in situations where I was bursting down an operative healer and once killed (and still marked) they come back as a dps player instead of a healer while another player respecced from dps to heals. So unless the entire team is marked there is no chance in coordinating a kill without voice chat.

 

Now I know as well as you do that the Sniper spec doesn't really have a huge advantage respeccing in a WZ whereas other classes, notably sorcs and operatives can be the difference between capping or not in long drawn out battles like Voidstar/CW/Novare

 

I'm sorry to hear that was going on. I think the real cause of slow queues and lack of ranked, though -- at least last night -- is double-XP weekend.

 

This has been happening for quite sometime and between the bolster bugs and exploits there has been a lot of people either leaving the game or not bothering to queue for PVP. Just a friendly reminder that unless you want to play the same 8 people over and over again, a la most of the Ranked nights, then attitudes need to change. I know this will fall on mostly deaf ears. The guild that I am in was willing to start doing Ranked when the patch 2.0 came out but after our brief excursion into the Ranked scene and the amount of exploiting that was going on (whether a minor or major advantage is moot, it was still an advantage) this put a sour taste in most of our mouths and the guild is no longer interested in getting a ranked team together.

 

Maybe you will fair better on the Bastion or an other PVP server, but the main reason I personally came to an RP-PVE server was due to the level of maturity that said server normally invites and I have noticed over the past couple of months that egos are getting slightly inflated (I must say that I hold some responsibility on my own here).

 

I wish you all the best on your new PVP exploits and I know some of you in your guild will probably take what I have to say very harshly or get the traditional L2P response but someone needed to say it and I have no problem putting my reputation on the line in this game as I have enough friends in this game both in and outside the guild.

 

Enough with my ranting I have made my position clear now (hopefully) on exploits and unsportsmanlike behavior and I will speak no longer on these topics.

[xContex]

And I cant say for sure, but you guys definitely had some sort of shortcut for grabbing the huttball, I watched one of your grabs closely on your stream and you grabbed the ball prior to it even displaying graphically. I didn't even see you spamming right click to get the ball.

 

When I queued with Melyn whether that be regs or ranked he would get the ball nearly every time in huttball. That isn't because of a macros though. It is because he lives really close to the server (low ping) and clicks really fast. I can click just as fast but my issue is my ping is not so low. I play on a west coast server while living on the east coast. Jumping to conclusions because of new info is simply immature. I understand the frustration revolving macro but it isn't the fault of the users but the fault of bioware for previously being completely unclear as to what is allowed and not allowed. I know the users in question would use it prior to the match even starting not during. So this whole misconception that they were respec'ing mid-combat (which makes them useless for 4-5 seconds) is plain stupidity and really needs to be thrown out. Use some common sense people.

Edited June 22, 2013 by xContex

[LaVall]

I understand it when people who aren't very good feel the need to cheat in order to stay competitive, but whether it's macros, augment exploiting, corner capping, the old smuggle/infiltrate stealth cap, etc... the people that I always catch cheating (and I have proof because I always screencap it) are without a doubt the best players on the server that are always grouped up with other great players. This is what really bothers me. If you're already better than the people you play against 80% of the time, why do you need a further advantage, especially in regular warzones? The only thing I can think of is that they don't actually want competition, they want easy wins. Personally I hate lopsided games whether I'm winning or losing. I play PVP for the 6-5 huttball matches, the 10-0 Civil Wars, the comeback Novare where you were losing 100-8% but somehow managed to pull it off, or the Voidstars where both teams got the datacore and it comes down to time. The matches where you can truly "/say GG" are what keep me coming back, not the lopsided facerolls that occur when the teams are mismatched. If we beat a good team we feel proud because we did it with skill and teamwork, not cheats and exploits. Edited June 22, 2013 by LaVall

[CKHelseth]

When I queued with Melyn whether that be regs or ranked he would get the ball nearly every time in huttball. That isn't because of a macros though. It is because he lives really close to the server (low ping) and clicks really fast. I can click just as fast but my issue is my ping is not so low. I play on a west coast server while living on the east coast. Jumping to conclusions because of new info is simply immature. I understand the frustration revolving macro but it isn't the fault of the users but the fault of bioware for previously being completely unclear as to what is allowed and not allowed. I know the users in question would use it prior to the match even starting not during. So this whole misconception that they were respec'ing mid-combat (which makes them useless for 4-5 seconds) is plain stupidity and really needs to be thrown out. Use some common sense people.

 

Bioware has been clear on this since beta. It was unclear and a gray area then. As result the ToS was changed and tightened to state that any macros were unacceptable. In addition the Rules of Conduct clearly state this.

 

Claiming ignorance isn't an excuse or a justification.

 

It isn't Bioware's fault. They said in no uncertain terms it was prohibited.

 

That some people decided to go around the in game limitations with third party devices and software is the fault of those users and no one else. That it calls into question the legitimacy of their play and success in this aspect of the game is there fault. If those of us that did not use these practices are unhappy, distrustful or put an "asterisk" next to anything they do or say is again their fault.

 

Your argument in defense is anecdotal and tired Scyn. Common sense is to read the ToS and Rules of Conduct. These practices have been admitted to and even shown in various videos posted on these forums. Getting defensive and trying to discredit complaints over the practices by insulting those that question them or claim ignorance isn't acceptable.

 

The only solution is for the players to;

 

1. Accept that the practice was, is and will continue to be against the rules.

 

2. Stop claiming ignorance.

 

3. Stop blaming server lag.

 

4. Stop using the exploits to create an unfair and imbalanced pvp experience for others.

Edited June 22, 2013 by CKHelseth

[stringcat]

Valya while I do appreciate your stance on this the fact being that there is a huge tactical advantage in respeccing. For instance, in Voidstar changing from dps to heals to defend is an enormous advantage when defending and vice versa. I have been in situations where I was bursting down an operative healer and once killed (and still marked) they come back as a dps player instead of a healer while another player respecced from dps to heals. So unless the entire team is marked there is no chance in coordinating a kill without voice chat.

 

Voidstar respecs happen in-between rounds when there's plenty of time to respec -- particularly if one team has taken a door, because then you can start at 27 seconds in round one and still have the full intermission period. (I would also classify it as a strategic choice, not a tactical one.) That has nothing to do with a respec macro. Every ranked group runs at most one healer on offense and every healer/tank they can on defense. I always respec to Engineering for defense and Lethality for offense in ranked -- it takes me about 10-12 seconds to go to Engineering and a little over 15 seconds to go lethality. (That's admittedly the only time it's super-useful for a sniper to respec midwarzones).

 

As for your switching healers example - that seens like a really convulated tactic with marginal utility. It wouldn't work in ranked warzones, not because of voicechat, but because healers are extremely identiifable. I doubt it would work in normal warzones, for the same reason. Just remark the healers. Coordinating DPS when there's multiple healers around is tricky in pugs these days, but that really doesn't have anything to do with respecs, it has to do with heailng being OP .

 

 

This has been happening for quite sometime and between the bolster bugs and exploits there has been a lot of people either leaving the game or not bothering to queue for PVP. Just a friendly reminder that unless you want to play the same 8 people over and over again, a la most of the Ranked nights, then attitudes need to change. I know this will fall on mostly deaf ears. The guild that I am in was willing to start doing Ranked when the patch 2.0 came out but after our brief excursion into the Ranked scene and the amount of exploiting that was going on (whether a minor or major advantage is moot, it was still an advantage) this put a sour taste in most of our mouths and the guild is no longer interested in getting a ranked team together.

 

There's not a lot of exploiting going on in ranked, actually. It's true that people don't like playing when the other team has massive advantages. But the real advantage, and it is both huge and very difficult to overcome, is familarity with ranked warzone strategies and practice coordinating, plus the fact that incremental skill advantages become significant multiplied across 8 players. ( I expect to shortly be on the other end of this. ) You have to be willing to lose a lot of ranked warzone games to overcome those things - often losing badly - to get better. And it sucks. I think it's silly to pretend that the barrier to entry is anything else.

 

I wish you all the best on your new PVP exploits and I know some of you in your guild will probably take what I have to say very harshly or get the traditional L2P response but someone needed to say it and I have no problem putting my reputation on the line in this game as I have enough friends in this game both in and outside the guild.

 

I doubt it. You're just.... wrong. It's hard to be angry or offended by that.

[Syberduh]

 

...

 

If you're accusing me of using a huttball clicking macro you are wrong. I have never used a huttball clicking macro. I have more than 30 huttball vids posted here if you want to comb through them for evidence of macro use.

 

For the record I do average 20-40ms ping

Edited June 25, 2013 by CommunityDroidFR
repost

[CKHelseth]

But the real advantage, and it is both huge and very difficult to overcome, is familarity with ranked warzone strategies.

 

Yeah like corner capping (closed now), /stuck, bolster exploits, lag hacks, macros...

 

Pretty familiar with them...

 

I agree with a comment above that most of the people who use these are pretty good at pvp and without them would still be good. These people and guilds have made the use of the exploits strategy and there is no excuse for that, especially in light of their existing skill.

 

Ruining the experience for people learning them, then telling them "hey I know we are $%#ing you but if you just learn to play better" is why ranked is dead on this server.

 

What if people do get past your "barrier"? When we have every strategy down and gear our characters to bis? Are the exploiters going to stop? No, the push will be even greater to use them to keep the edge and keep on winning.

 

You want to play this off as nothing or act like its not a big deal that is your call. I queued for Warzones in prime time last night. We got rolled by a certain pre-made who then mocked us in general. The next wz shut down as we had three people (three others joined and left when they saw it was the same pre-made). I waited a half hour in queue before giving up on pvp for the night. Anecdotal sure, but what fun!

 

Well done! These players have been so "awesome" that no one wants to play with you! A barrier has been created that most people don't even want to bother with. Enjoy your server transfer!

 

This post of course is for a select group of "elite" PvPers. I do believe that there are many excellent pvpers on this server that refrain from using any thing to artificial boost their performance. I am sorry that the fallout from the behavior of some is that they too have to make the hard choice of staying or going and paying real money on top of it if they do. Wish them the best of luck.

[Syberduh]

Bioware has been clear on this since beta. It was unclear and a gray area then. As result the ToS was changed and tightened to state that any macros were unacceptable. In addition the Rules of Conduct clearly state this.

 

Claiming ignorance isn't an excuse or a justification.

 

It isn't Bioware's fault. They said in no uncertain terms it was prohibited.

 

That some people decided to go around the in game limitations with third party devices and software is the fault of those users and no one else. That it calls into question the legitimacy of their play and success in this aspect of the game is there fault. If those of us that did not use these practices are unhappy, distrustful or put an "asterisk" next to anything they do or say is again their fault.

 

Your argument in defense is anecdotal and tired Scyn. Common sense is to read the ToS and Rules of Conduct. These practices have been admitted to and even shown in various videos posted on these forums. Getting defensive and trying to discredit complaints over the practices by insulting those that question them or claim ignorance isn't acceptable.

 

The only solution is for the players to;

 

1. Accept that the practice was, is and will continue to be against the rules.

 

2. Stop claiming ignorance.

 

3. Stop blaming server lag.

 

4. Stop using the exploits to create an unfair and imbalanced pvp experience for others.

 

While it's true that the ToS explicitly forbids any macros at all, BW devs have stated as recently as last week that certain macros are explicitly allowed. Even the latest (and most restrictive) dev posts on the subject (here and here) explicitly allow some macros and assure players that BW will ignore certain other macros even though they are technically against the ToS.

 

It's incorrect to say that BW had a clear, blanket prohibition of all macros. It did not and does not.

 

This post by George Zoeller seems to say that quality-of-life improvements to the interface (as Melyn considered the respec macro to be before the most recent dev post on the subject) are allowed. Melyn openly streamed his respec macro on his advertised twitch.tv channel. He didn't do that because he thought he needed to hide it. He truly thought it was within the rules. When Bioware forbade respec macros he immediately stopped using it.

 

The only macro that Melyn ever used was the respec macro. He has not used any other macro, or "lag hack," or bolster exploit and neither has any other member of ITK. As I've already mentioned I (as well as Jaadis and Joiless) have literally hours of game footage uploaded on youtube. Please feel free to review at your leisure for signs of cheating.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Syberduh

[gossmanster]

I'm a very mediocre PVPer and I'm frankly too lazy to take advantage of a lot of these tricks. I'm glad they fixed corner cap and I never did it. I thought naked bolster was stupid and didn't take advantage of it (for awhile I dumped my relics because frankly it was almost impossible to play with them). But there is a grey area. I'm also skeptical how much advantage some of these like on-the-fly respec are, but YMMV.

 

I do want to make one statement. I think a blanket ban on re-speccing in wzs will make the lop-sided games *worse*. When I got into a wz as DPS and we are getting murdered and they are crushing, I will re-spec to a sturdier spec or switch to heals and try to improve the balance. When I'm a side and we're crushing it, I'm far less motivated to switch.

 

I also think not specing differently for Huttball vs other games, or switching between specs on offense and defense in voidstar, even it you think it is unethical, is a loser's strategy as long as BW doesn't actively stop it. Sometimes you just have to play the hand you're dealt.

[xContex]

Yeah like corner capping (closed now), /stuck, bolster exploits, lag hacks, macros....

 

Corner Capping - Ascension made a truce amongst all guilds not to use this. We didn't use it but other guilds did and we didn't like it. Glad its fixed

 

/Stuck - Doesn't happen on this server

 

Bolster Exploits - Doesn't happen on this server

 

Lag Hacks - LOLWAT? Please you can make-up something better than that. At least take the Eelum route and tell me I'm armor hacking or damage hacking or crit hacking. At least those sound alot more useful.

 

Macros - The ONLY macro being used by players of a few various guilds was the respec macro which would respec in 4-5 seconds. Generally these respecs would happen prior to a match/round starting. I am not aware of anyone doing it mid-fight.

 

So again. Try again. If you want to make an excuse to avoid ranked.. don't. Simply say I don't want to participate. Don't give us excuses as to why then start making up junk. Most of what you said does happen. Just not here on BC in the ranked scene. You will find it on other servers. Mainly PVP servers. This might come across as harsh but I'm just tired of this crap.

[CKHelseth]

Corner Capping - Ascension made a truce amongst all guilds not to use this. We didn't use it but other guilds did and we didn't like it. Glad its fixed

 

/Stuck - Doesn't happen on this server

 

Bolster Exploits - Doesn't happen on this server

 

Lag Hacks - LOLWAT? Please you can make-up something better than that. At least take the Eelum route and tell me I'm armor hacking or damage hacking or crit hacking. At least those sound alot more useful.

 

Macros - The ONLY macro being used by players of a few various guilds was the respec macro which would respec in 4-5 seconds. Generally these respecs would happen prior to a match/round starting. I am not aware of anyone doing it mid-fight.

 

So again. Try again. If you want to make an excuse to avoid ranked.. don't. Simply say I don't want to participate. Don't give us excuses as to why then start making up junk. Most of what you said does happen. Just not here on BC in the ranked scene. You will find it on other servers. Mainly PVP servers. This might come across as harsh but I'm just tired of this crap.

 

Why don't you just type "nuh uh" and go tell your mom on me...

 

A terrible pvp environment gets created by the use of exploits by some and the abusive and rude behavior of others and the only response that ever comes back is "nuh uh". Pretty tired of that too. It would seem by the state of ranked that most everybody else on the server is too.

 

Anyway made my points. Agree? Disagree? I don't care. You can go back to being kings and queens of who cares and shouting down any complaint with the usual "nuh uh". Its worked out so well so far right.

[PoliteAssasin]

Valya while I do appreciate your stance on this the fact being that there is a huge tactical advantage in respeccing. For instance, in Voidstar changing from dps to heals to defend is an enormous advantage when defending and vice versa. I have been in situations where I was bursting down an operative healer and once killed (and still marked) they come back as a dps player instead of a healer while another player respecced from dps to heals. So unless the entire team is marked there is no chance in coordinating a kill without voice chat.

 

Now I know as well as you do that the Sniper spec doesn't really have a huge advantage respeccing in a WZ whereas other classes, notably sorcs and operatives can be the difference between capping or not in long drawn out battles like Voidstar/CW/Novare

 

 

 

This has been happening for quite sometime and between the bolster bugs and exploits there has been a lot of people either leaving the game or not bothering to queue for PVP. Just a friendly reminder that unless you want to play the same 8 people over and over again, a la most of the Ranked nights, then attitudes need to change. I know this will fall on mostly deaf ears. The guild that I am in was willing to start doing Ranked when the patch 2.0 came out but after our brief excursion into the Ranked scene and the amount of exploiting that was going on (whether a minor or major advantage is moot, it was still an advantage) this put a sour taste in most of our mouths and the guild is no longer interested in getting a ranked team together.

 

Maybe you will fair better on the Bastion or an other PVP server, but the main reason I personally came to an RP-PVE server was due to the level of maturity that said server normally invites and I have noticed over the past couple of months that egos are getting slightly inflated (I must say that I hold some responsibility on my own here).

 

I wish you all the best on your new PVP exploits and I know some of you in your guild will probably take what I have to say very harshly or get the traditional L2P response but someone needed to say it and I have no problem putting my reputation on the line in this game as I have enough friends in this game both in and outside the guild.

 

Enough with my ranting I have made my position clear now (hopefully) on exploits and unsportsmanlike behavior and I will speak no longer on these topics.

 

Once these guys are gone Nab, we can start trying to build up the ranked scene, legitimately. Talked to Feken, and hopefully we can discuss it with other guilds looking to break into ranked pvp as well.

[JamesBalla]

How do I forum

 

[gossmanster]

I wish I had a macro so I could change sides during a warzone. That would be awesome.

[OWENWILSON]

i skipped to the end of this thread without reading more than 2-3 posts in the beginning and a few posts at the end...

all I wanted to say is

 

shut the **** up

 

-Mythical

[gossmanster]

Seriously though, I did not think of using a macro to re-spec, but if I had, I would not have thought it illegal, for the simple reason that most MMOs I play let you save gear sets and specs and change them on the fly. I just think of these things as short-comings of the SWTOR UI and frankly really wish they'd fix it. I do see the point of maybe restricting them to being used in the graveyard...but as I said before I think being able to re-spec during the match increases rather than decreases balance and always thought it sucked in WoW that you couldn't.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to get into any guilds

[SnowmanSD]

Hey... first post here. Just stopped in the forums to see how everyones doing and to be honest its kind of stupid. Lets all just chill out and remember the reason we play this game is for the community we are a part of. Playing with you guys for about a year has made me happy and regardless of this stupid drama lets just.play the game and have fun like we always have.

[JamesBalla]

i skipped to the end of this thread without reading more than 2-3 posts in the beginning and a few posts at the end...

all I wanted to say is

 

shut the **** up

 

-Mythical

Marry me gfunk.

[Aiax]

I wish I had a macro so I could change sides during a warzone. That would be awesome.

 

This actually made me laugh.

 

-Sanitize

[hugofer]

So this is my first post on a "drama" thread but i wanted to say somthing and that is that im really dissapointed to all the "elite pvpers" that are using this kind of stuff wne i begun to play pvp back in the day i really had respect for those players becouse i always look up them and i tought " someday i want to be has good has them" thats why i consider myself a decent pvper thnks to them becouse i use to consider them "teachers" for the pvp experience and its really sad to me to see that most of them were using cheats to win .... i dont know why is the need for them i mean they are the best why they need to use those exploits and stuff its really a dissapoint for me becouse i think that if you are the best you dont need those "helps" to be the best is your skill and abilities that make you exalt over the rest .... thats all im saying for them

 

PS: im from southamerica so my englihs is crap plz dont judge me

[PoliteAssasin]

Bringing this back somewhat on topic, if you're going to queue for ranked, do not leave the queue so you can participate in win trading. Not only do you lose rating for hitting the leave q button, but the team who gets dodged gets free rating. And while thats nice, we would like to actually enjoy a match rather than a free win. I would also like to remind those of you who shall go unnamed that win trading is strictly against the TOS. Thanks! Edited June 23, 2013 by PoliteAssasin

[SnowmanSD]

Lol now retal is complaining that nobody will que with them for ranked? Nomnomnom /popcorn... priceless.

[PoliteAssasin]

Lol now retal is complaining that nobody will que with them for ranked? Nomnomnom /popcorn... priceless.

 

Maybe you should reread my post. Go ahead, give it another shot.

[hulcalan]

So this is my first post on a "drama" thread but i wanted to say somthing and that is that im really dissapointed to all the "elite pvpers" that are using this kind of stuff wne i begun to play pvp back in the day i really had respect for those players becouse i always look up them and i tought " someday i want to be has good has them" thats why i consider myself a decent pvper thnks to them becouse i use to consider them "teachers" for the pvp experience and its really sad to me to see that most of them were using cheats to win .... i dont know why is the need for them i mean they are the best why they need to use those exploits and stuff its really a dissapoint for me becouse i think that if you are the best you dont need those "helps" to be the best is your skill and abilities that make you exalt over the rest .... thats all im saying for them

 

PS: im from southamerica so my englihs is crap plz dont judge me

 

I think you are a great pvp'er ... i search you out sometimes ^_^

 

but yeah those facts are the sole reason I really shy away from ranked competition... right now I just see it as very unfair and stupid... so, I just enjoy the game where I can

[xContex]

Why don't you just type "nuh uh" and go tell your mom on me...

 

A terrible pvp environment gets created by the use of exploits by some and the abusive and rude behavior of others and the only response that ever comes back is "nuh uh". Pretty tired of that too. It would seem by the state of ranked that most everybody else on the server is too.

 

Anyway made my points. Agree? Disagree? I don't care. You can go back to being kings and queens of who cares and shouting down any complaint with the usual "nuh uh". Its worked out so well so far right.

 

If I tell my mommy and daddy they will call BIoware and send you to the time out corner mister! You just wait!?!??!?!?!??!?. And by the way I am the King of Korriban. Shesh get your facts straight.

 

Anyway. (joking aside)

 

A terrible PVP environment comes from the fact that we play on an RP-PVE server. You are more likely to run into people with less gear or people who will literally RP in PVP. I've seen it. Ranked on this server isn't on life support because a guild used respec macros which no one basically knew about for the longest time. It is on life support because people aren't committed to ranked. They aren't committed to losing before winning. You cannot enter ranked pvp and expect to win from day 1. That isn't possible unless the teams queueing for ranked are really THAT bad.

 

When Melyn was in Ascension this was the ranked Scene.

 

GD vs. Ascension (most of the night)

Dark Jedi Order (Intraguild Farming Ranked)

Infamous (1-2 queues a night)

 

Once Melyn left it became.

Ascension, GD, ITK, Infamous, Retaliation, and a few other small guilds participating for 1-2 matches then calling it quits.

 

And the fact of the matter is out of all of these guilds only 4 would actually stick around after losing. Ascension, ITK, infamous, and Retaliation. That is why Ranked PVP fails on this server. Not because of macros or exploiters. Deny this fact all you want. All I see is one person admitting to macros and everyone jumping on his *** citing that This is the SOLE REASON why ranked failed on this server. Not server population, not that we are on a RP-PVE server, not that people are so thin skinned that they can't tolerate losing, not that this server is losing its PVP'ers to other games like WoW, GW2, ect. No no, those reasons aren't valid. No its because 1 guild used macros. That must be it!

 

Again. Grow up. If you are going to call him out. Do it properly. And if you are going to argue with me. Sort out your made up facts from your actual facts.

 

Btw care to explain to me what lag hacks are? I have yet to figure that one out.

Edited June 23, 2013 by xContex