Quick Veng Fix to Make All Happy

[GregAlia]

I think it's fairly obvious that in pvp at least it would be nice if vengence/vigilance packed just a little bit more punch. I certainly don't think we are a bad class nor do I believe we need to go to the stupid lvl at which some classes have achieved with the 1 mill damage mark. (insanity). Some people love the play style, me being one of them, and don't want it to change nor do I feel asking to nerf other classes is productive and it's a bit whiny. My solution is simple. Pooled hatred/Gathering strength just needs to be converted into a talent that buffs the bleed damage by a percentage that would simply bring us in line with some of the other class and allow us to put a bit more pressure on healers. Also, much like the pyrotec bounty hunters, give it another little boost once your opponent gets below 30ish% health. This does nothing to change the play style of the class at all, also boosts damage output in pve, and turns the talent into something that isn't worthless all in one little fix. Plus no whining from other class that we are op because, although burst is great, the sneeky bleed sneeks up on you. Tell me what you think guys and maybe if enough of us get on board this could be something they think about.

[Darth_Rathus]

Single Saber Mastery - Shien Form: Increases all melee damage dealt by 5/10/15 %.

 

Vengeance fixed.

[Dire]

I wait for the day where the amateur player doesn't think that more damage is the only way to buff.

 

Heads out of butts kids.

[Helig]

I wait for the day where the amateur player doesn't think that more damage is the only way to buff.

 

Heads out of butts kids.

^

I'd rather have a bit of ArP, and\or something of an ergonomic utility talent like each crit dealt by you lowers the active cooldown on Charge, or Push, or Stasis.

 

I want to be able to use Focused Defense more often. WTB talent that lowers its active cooldown as we get hit.

 

I also want Protector back.

[Elyx]

I wait for the day where the amateur player doesn't think that more damage is the only way to buff.

 

Heads out of butts kids.

 

you could at least try and be constructive man.

 

The OP said nothing about bleed increase being "all we need" he stated it was a simple and easy solution to increasing damage and versatility. And I agree. I also like the options Helig listed as well though. See, he offered constructive criticism and options. your post is not even worth reading, except its now stained on my brain.

 

In all honesty, I have seen far too often people saying that our bleed aren't "worth it" and due to the small return, are poor investments in points spent. I don't agree completely, but I've always thought we could use more bleed power....either a more powerful tick, or simply longer bleed times. Bleeds increase damage, provide more flexibility (you can do other things while the bleeds are up), and are a detriment to opponents (who have to clean them, or if they can't, then deal with a damage source that can break stealth, etc.) Are they an end-all solution? no. but he didn't brand it as such.

 

besides, if the Dev's were going to implement a solution, they'd probably rather do one that is simple (add 3-6 seconds to a bleed or up its damage by 10%) then try a complicated new skill or ability that can change game mechanics. which means they'd be more apt and willing to implement it.

 

Of course, the increase in damage to SSS is also a very easy and quick fix to the issue as well. I'm for either of those. And I'd also enjoy some more complicated talent solutions to make me think more and have more to do. But in all honesty, the vengeance spec really isn't that bad. Immortal has serious issues. I'd rather see a quick damage buff to vengeance and leave as is, and let them focus their attention on immortal...the tree is in serious need of some rejuvenation.

[Darth_Rathus]

you could at least try and be constructive man.

 

The OP said nothing about bleed increase being "all we need" he stated it was a simple and easy solution to increasing damage and versatility. And I agree. I also like the options Helig listed as well though. See, he offered constructive criticism and options. your post is not even worth reading, except its now stained on my brain.

 

In all honesty, I have seen far too often people saying that our bleed aren't "worth it" and due to the small return, are poor investments in points spent. I don't agree completely, but I've always thought we could use more bleed power....either a more powerful tick, or simply longer bleed times. Bleeds increase damage, provide more flexibility (you can do other things while the bleeds are up), and are a detriment to opponents (who have to clean them, or if they can't, then deal with a damage source that can break stealth, etc.) Are they an end-all solution? no. but he didn't brand it as such.

 

besides, if the Dev's were going to implement a solution, they'd probably rather do one that is simple (add 3-6 seconds to a bleed or up its damage by 10%) then try a complicated new skill or ability that can change game mechanics. which means they'd be more apt and willing to implement it.

 

Of course, the increase in damage to SSS is also a very easy and quick fix to the issue as well. I'm for either of those. And I'd also enjoy some more complicated talent solutions to make me think more and have more to do. But in all honesty, the vengeance spec really isn't that bad. Immortal has serious issues. I'd rather see a quick damage buff to vengeance and leave as is, and let them focus their attention on immortal...the tree is in serious need of some rejuvenation.

 

Just put him on /ignore. I did, and I feel better already.

 

If we get a buff at all, I'd rather it was something quick and easy that doesn't ruin the rest of the spec.

[GregAlia]

The only reason I think a buff to the bleeds would be more helpful than the saber master buff is because of the mitigation that takes place with the white damage over the bleeds.

[PowerReaper]

Skill - Butchering: Increases the critical strike damage of Force Scream and all your over time effects by 15%/30%.

Skill - Invulnerable: Increases movement speed by 7.5%/15% and reduces area of effect damage by 15%/30%.

 

Increase Shatters damage by 10% and cause its damage over time effect to go over 9 seconds. Sometimes i feel as if Force Crush is doing more damage then this ability for a lesser cost and the fact it doesn't bypass armor.

[Bare-Giin]

Skill - Butchering: Increases the critical strike damage of Force Scream and all your over time effects by 15%/30%.

Skill - Invulnerable: Increases movement speed by 7.5%/15% and reduces area of effect damage by 15%/30%.

 

Increase Shatters damage by 10% and cause its damage over time effect to go over 9 seconds. Sometimes i feel as if Force Crush is doing more damage then this ability for a lesser cost and the fact it doesn't bypass armor.

 

^ this was actually nice ideas.. To do this without having to change the tree to much i suggest they put the bleed effects of impale and force scream into the vengeance 3 p talent and then replace draining scream and eviscerate with your new talents.. shatters dmg is fine tho (especially if they add that butchering skill), just shorten the duration to 9 sec

[Andrew_Past]

Skill - Butchering: Increases the critical strike damage of Force Scream and all your over time effects by 15%/30%.

Skill - Invulnerable: Increases movement speed by 7.5%/15% and reduces area of effect damage by 15%/30%.

 

Increase Shatters damage by 10% and cause its damage over time effect to go over 9 seconds. Sometimes i feel as if Force Crush is doing more damage then this ability for a lesser cost and the fact it doesn't bypass armor.

^ this was actually nice ideas.. To do this without having to change the tree to much i suggest they put the bleed effects of impale and force scream into the vengeance 3 p talent and then replace draining scream and eviscerate with your new talents.. shatters dmg is fine tho (especially if they add that butchering skill), just shorten the duration to 9 sec

I like the sound of this. Lower the Shatter duration even further to 6 seconds and it will be even better for PVP. This way, Vengeance can apply high damage/pressure on a target by stacking all of his bleeds on a target for when masterstrike is down. It still won't be quite at the same level as Annihilation, but it should still be enough when used in conjunction with our other abilities.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Andrew_Past

[vimm]

Skill - Butchering: Increases the critical strike damage of Force Scream and all your over time effects by 15%/30%.

Skill - Invulnerable: Increases movement speed by 7.5%/15% and reduces area of effect damage by 15%/30%.

 

Increase Shatters damage by 10% and cause its damage over time effect to go over 9 seconds. Sometimes i feel as if Force Crush is doing more damage then this ability for a lesser cost and the fact it doesn't bypass armor.

 

These updates would be delicious!

[Darth_Rathus]

These updates would be delicious!

 

Lol, you're simple.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Darth_Rathus

[Dire]

you could at least try and be constructive man.

 

The OP said nothing about bleed increase being "all we need" he stated it was a simple and easy solution to increasing damage and versatility.

 

I'm not sure what you're quoting in this statement. I never made such a claim. My comment stands. Theres nothing to be constructive about. I am full time vengence and i don't think it needs a buff.

 

In all honesty, I have seen far too often people saying that our bleed aren't "worth it" and due to the small return, are poor investments in points spent. I don't agree completely, but I've always thought we could use more bleed power....either a more powerful tick, or simply longer bleed times. Bleeds increase damage, provide more flexibility (you can do other things while the bleeds are up), and are a detriment to opponents (who have to clean them, or if they can't, then deal with a damage source that can break stealth, etc.) Are they an end-all solution? no. but he didn't brand it as such.

 

We're not marauders. Be a marauder if you want big bleeds. Vengence spec is based on 3 abilities, the bleeds are a side bar of extra damage. Deadly saber for example is not a front load hard hit ability THEN a bleed - its just a bleed - same with rupture. So - no.

 

besides, if the Dev's were going to implement a solution, they'd probably rather do one that is simple (add 3-6 seconds to a bleed or up its damage by 10%) then try a complicated new skill or ability that can change game mechanics. which means they'd be more apt and willing to implement it.

 

Again.. constructively - no. They don't need to change it.

 

Ultimately what this comes down to (and almost always does) is weaker players think they are stronger players and when they can't accomplish something they spend most of their energy pointing the finger outwards when they should be pointing it inwards.

 

Again, I play full time vengence jugg and I have zero issues with.

[SebastianII]

I'm not sure what you're quoting in this statement. I never made such a claim. My comment stands. Theres nothing to be constructive about. I am full time vengence and i don't think it needs a buff.

 

 

 

We're not marauders. Be a marauder if you want big bleeds. Vengence spec is based on 3 abilities, the bleeds are a side bar of extra damage. Deadly saber for example is not a front load hard hit ability THEN a bleed - its just a bleed - same with rupture. So - no.

 

 

 

Again.. constructively - no. They don't need to change it.

 

Ultimately what this comes down to (and almost always does) is weaker players think they are stronger players and when they can't accomplish something they spend most of their energy pointing the finger outwards when they should be pointing it inwards.

 

Again, I play full time vengence jugg and I have zero issues with.

 

The issue at hand isn't the playability or usefulness of the class in pve or pvp. The problem is damage numbers aren't up to snuff and this causes individuals who play guardians and juggs to be chosen over other classes based on damage numbers alone.

 

Dire, I've watched your videos and there is no doubt at your skill as veng jugg or your pvp awareness. I respect you for this. But your videos never show the total damage compared to these other high damage classes in warzones. The arguement about skill over damage can be made or utility over damage, but whats the point when the numbers are always low and you can't go to this ranked warzone or this operation because another class vastly outdamages you?

[Elyx]

I'm not sure what you're quoting in this statement. I never made such a claim. My comment stands. Theres nothing to be constructive about. I am full time vengence and i don't think it needs a buff.

 

you insulted the OP and then made reference to his idea like it was a fix all solution, which he never said it was. A quick fix does not mean he thinks it's the only solution, which you referred to. Quote:

 

"I wait for the day where the amateur player doesn't think that more damage is the only way to buff."

Emphasis mine. you inferred that he thought it was the only way to buff, which he didn't. he said it was a quick and easy fix, not the only fix.

 

 

We're not marauders. Be a marauder if you want big bleeds. Vengeance spec is based on 3 abilities, the bleeds are a side bar of extra damage. Deadly saber for example is not a front load hard hit ability THEN a bleed - its just a bleed - same with rupture. So - no.

 

you should check out some parses. you'd be surprised at how much of our damage is constituted by bleeds. Plus, the marauder isn't the "Only " bleed class. sorc/sage and shadow/assassin also have some heavy bleed/DoT based specs. Just because you downplay the DoT's we have doesn't make them unimportant. Lastly, Even if you took out all the mauraders bleeds and our bleed (believe it or not, we have as many as they do), they are still a very different class in playstyle and looks. I like the Jugg, bleeds and all. Not the maurader.

 

 

Again.. constructively - no. They don't need to change it.

 

I support this. you feel like it's fine where it is. I do too...but it doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. To me the key is to improve the spec without changing how it plays. see my comments on that below.

 

Ultimately what this comes down to (and almost always does) is weaker players think they are stronger players and when they can't accomplish something they spend most of their energy pointing the finger outwards when they should be pointing it inwards.

 

I can't argue with that. Far too many times I've seen people ask for changes that would drastically change the class I love so they can have their PvP (or whatever) day in the light. I'm not a fan of that, and in all honesty you and I are probably closer in agreement then it seems. I don't think the spec needs changing much at all...In it's play-style I simply find it the most enjoyable class/spec i have played in the game.

 

Again, I play full time vengence jugg and I have zero issues with.

 

I also play full time vengeance. I have also leveled 2 other juggs, one as rage, and one as immortal. Vengeance stands out as my favorite spec and If it weren't for the lack of tanks in the guild, I'd play all 3 as vengeance. But let me ask you this....if you love the class so much, what is it about the spec you like? and if they simply "upped the damage" through bleeds or an extra boost on other skill, how would that kill how your class is played? I'm honestly asking this because I too love vengeance, yet I'm not seeing how those two simple ideas (extra bleed damage or extra % damage on SSM) would change how it was played.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Elyx